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  1. #11
    Caine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Mac D View Post
    I'm much more concerned with the 2010 and 2011 debacle... which were all caused by the same thing.

    By feeding a "Win Now" mentality and signing Brett Favre to a $20M/year contract set this team back at least 5 years... if not more. The quick fix that was guaranteed to not last more than 2 seasons was ill-thought-out and poorly planned. Many of us on the site were pointing this out two years ago, only to be met with the "hater" label by the pro-Favre crowd, who were simply blinded by the name on the jersey.

    Sure, some of us pointed out that Favre's last plays with the Packers and Jets were both INT's and that his last play with the Vikes would be an INT... which it was... but these fell on deaf ears.

    Sure, some of us said that he was too old and that even if we were good enough to make the playoffs, Favre wouldn't get us to the Super Bowl. We were right on this point too.

    So now here we are, 3 years later and our team just finished the worst season in franchise history. Free Agents are not signing here, opting for teams like Washington and San Fran. All the other teams in the NFC North continue to get better... and with YOUNG PLAYERS, instead of signing band-aid fixes like the Vikings were doing during the Childress era, hence why we're in the scenario we are now.

    At the bottom of all this, you have to look at Spielman and Wilf. Those are the people to blame. They simply are not football minds.

    But I also blame Vikings fans who were more concerned with signing Favre than they were building a winning football team. Now we are in for about 10 years of cellar dwelling. M0r0ns.
    I disagree only with the idea that signing Favre was the problem.

    The PROBLEM was Childress' inability to acquire and/or develop a worthwhile QB. An issue I was stomping on for YEARS.

    Favre was brought in as a quick-fix to the issue, but when Childress AGAIN failed to acquire a QB in 2010, I was one of the first to crucify him (again) for that failure.

    Favre did what he was brought in to do. He made a crappy Offense into a weapon, then was failed by his O-Line and the Officials in the Saints game. Favre failed himself, and us, by avoiding camp in '10...but I again put that on Childress who ALLOWED it, yet refused to address the condition which placed him at Favre's mercy.

    In the end, Favre was just a player. We were let down by Wilf (hired Childress, hired Spielman) and Childress (Hired Bevell, acquired Favre but didn't truly address the position).

    Caine

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    Well, I guess if having a pro bowl LT and a pick at the top of the draft every year is what makes your day you may just be in for a very long happy spell.
    By your logic the Vikings have never hit a home run in the draft.
    The two guys you mentioned have started 142 of 144 games at left tackle since being drafted. They have made 8 of 9 possible pro-bowls. Outside of landing a star QB I don't think you can do too much better.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Just because one player is great, doesn't mean the team he is on is good enough to win a SB. Pro Bowl linemen don't necessarily guarantee SB wins. Hell, even Pro Bowl WR's don't even guarantee one.

    How many rings does Moss have? Chad Ochocinco? Larry Fitzgerald?

    Bottom line is if you can't protect your QB, Your QB is typically not going to have great success.
    +1
    You can't judge a player solely on Superbowl success.
    I rank most positions similar in value, with the exception of QB, which is by far the most important.

  4. #14
    Caine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcdon00 View Post
    By your logic the Vikings have never hit a home run in the draft.
    The two guys you mentioned have started 142 of 144 games at left tackle since being drafted. They have made 8 of 9 possible pro-bowls. Outside of landing a star QB I don't think you can do too much better.
    I think his point is - and I agree with it - that LT appears to be an over rated position.

    Look at Green Bay. Their Left Tackle was Newhouse...no one has been talking about him being "Elite".

    I'd never even heard of Will Beatty in New York.

    Meanwhile, Joe Thomas racks up Pro-Bowl bids, but his team sucks.

    Same with Jake Long in Miami, Ryan Clady in Denver, Jordan Gross in Carolina, and so on.

    Someone said that you need a LT once, and everyone jumped on the bandwagon. Well, we had McKinnie for years...didn't help us out.

    Fact is, you need a QB first and foremost. Or, you need a completely dominant Defense, but most successful teams go after a QB.

    Then you need receivers - more than 1 good one is preferred.

    A solid RB is nice too...especially one who can catch out of the backfield.

    Finally, a solid line. Nothing spectacular...just a solid one. Of course, a good QB and a good RB make a line look better....

    IMHO, drafting Kalil is going to happen...but I'm not thrilled about it. I would have preferred to get RGIII, and now that THAT is impossible, I'd prefer to trade down and get either a WR or a DB. Kalil won't put points on the board, he won't get open for long receptions, and he won't make great throws. He MIGHT prevent Ponder from being hit so much...but there's 4 other guys who have to step up too.

    fact is, Kalil by himself....I don't see much of a change in our line by Drafting him.

    Caine

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    I think his point is - and I agree with it - that LT appears to be an over rated position.

    Look at Green Bay. Their Left Tackle was Newhouse...no one has been talking about him being "Elite".

    I'd never even heard of Will Beatty in New York.

    Meanwhile, Joe Thomas racks up Pro-Bowl bids, but his team sucks.

    Same with Jake Long in Miami, Ryan Clady in Denver, Jordan Gross in Carolina, and so on.

    Someone said that you need a LT once, and everyone jumped on the bandwagon. Well, we had McKinnie for years...didn't help us out.

    Fact is, you need a QB first and foremost. Or, you need a completely dominant Defense, but most successful teams go after a QB.

    Then you need receivers - more than 1 good one is preferred.

    A solid RB is nice too...especially one who can catch out of the backfield.

    Finally, a solid line. Nothing spectacular...just a solid one. Of course, a good QB and a good RB make a line look better....

    IMHO, drafting Kalil is going to happen...but I'm not thrilled about it. I would have preferred to get RGIII, and now that THAT is impossible, I'd prefer to trade down and get either a WR or a DB. Kalil won't put points on the board, he won't get open for long receptions, and he won't make great throws. He MIGHT prevent Ponder from being hit so much...but there's 4 other guys who have to step up too.

    fact is, Kalil by himself....I don't see much of a change in our line by Drafting him.

    Caine
    I agree QB is far and a way the most important position, and that is why the Browns and Dolphins are not playoff teams, and the Packers and Giants are. If Luck or RGIII is available I have no problem taking them over Kalil.

    Since we are going down that road though, it stands to reason that D'brickashaw Ferguson, selected 4th in 06 by the Jets, be mentioned. Never missed a game 103/103 counting playoffs, made the pro-bowl the last 3 seasons. Has helped the Jets to the playoffs 3 times, with 4 playoff wins.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcdon00 View Post
    By your logic the Vikings have never hit a home run in the draft.

    The two guys you mentioned have started 142 of 144 games at left tackle since being drafted. They have made 8 of 9 possible pro-bowls. Outside of landing a star QB I don't think you can do too much better.
    What you posted has absolutely nothing to do with my logic. All I was saying if you use the highest draft pick you have had in about 30 years on an OL and not a skill player then the team is not going to be getting any better and you will be picking at the same position for a while.
    And Kalil might be a better pick than Blackmon or Claiborne but if that is the case I would rather trade down and get some extra picks for the player than go the route of the Elite LT like we did before that only chewed up the cap room.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    What you posted has absolutely nothing to do with my logic. All I was saying if you use the highest draft pick you have had in about 30 years on an OL and not a skill player then the team is not going to be getting any better and you will be picking at the same position for a while.
    And Kalil might be a better pick than Blackmon or Claiborne but if that is the case I would rather trade down and get some extra picks for the player than go the route of the Elite LT like we did before that only chewed up the cap room.
    And I disagree. I think a dominant left tackle does make the team better.
    McKinnie was a bust, so that is a bad example.(although he still held the starter spot for a decade). Had he been the Elite LT we thought we were getting we might just have won the Superbowl(fewer hits on Favre).

  8. #18
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    A QB can't make a play if hes getting hit in the back, and we all know bad things happen when your QB gets blindsided.

    I don't think any QB could have played well behind our line the last couple years. I thought Favre had one of the quickest releases ever (when he wanted to) and we still got him fucking pummeled into the dirt.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcdon00 View Post
    I agree QB is far and a way the most important position, and that is why the Browns and Dolphins are not playoff teams, and the Packers and Giants are. If Luck or RGIII is available I have no problem taking them over Kalil.


    Since we are going down that road though, it stands to reason that D'brickashaw Ferguson, selected 4th in 06 by the Jets, be mentioned. Never missed a game 103/103 counting playoffs, made the pro-bowl the last 3 seasons. Has helped the Jets to the playoffs 3 times, with 4 playoff wins.
    If you have seen my posts over the last several years it should be blatantly obvious that I have been as adamant as anyone that the OL needs to be upgraded and I certainly want to see us get a OT in the draft, but with a pick as high as 3 there is an indication that there are a myriad of things that need to be improved and the value that the 3 pick holds IMHO should get you more than a LT. Yes, they are important. Yes, I can pull up stats all day long about LT's that went to pro bowls for long periods of time. But I can also look back and see that teams are winning Super Bowls overwhelmingly with LT's that they got from the end of the first round and into the later rounds. So I know that it is possible to win a championship without a top 5 LT.

    If they draft him he most certainly will improve the play at the position but what exactly is that going to give us? In our division both Peppers and Vanden Bosch are on the tail end of their careers and the Packers don't have a premier RDE that is going to make Kalil a necessity to counteract.

    However, every team in the division has an elite Qb and a hell of a WR group. If we do nothing to make our secondary elite to counteract that and if we are not going to significantly improve our WR group then the drafting of a LT at the 3 spot is going to do nothing for us.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jessejames09 View Post
    A QB can't make a play if hes getting hit in the back, and we all know bad things happen when your QB gets blindsided.

    I don't think any QB could have played well behind our line the last couple years. I thought Favre had one of the quickest releases ever (when he wanted to) and we still got him fucking pummeled into the dirt.
    In order for him to take those shots a few things have to happen.
    1- They don't have WR's who can get quick separation
    2-The QB holds the ball too long.

    This is a WCO that we are running not a 7 step drop offense.It works when the QB gets the ball out quickly. Too quickly to see a great difference between having a top 3 LT and a LT that is drafted later in the day.

    If you look at the Giants, pats, packers and other teams that have won the SB in the last decade, they have gotten by just fine with a LT that was drafted out of the top 15. What makes you think that something so possible on other teams is so impossible on ours?

    I will give you a hint- Look at the OL coach and the OC.

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