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Thread: 4th and short.

  1. #11
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    Re: 4th and short.

    Bottom line you take the points, mind numbing to me that you do that...maybe in a diff situatoin but seriously the 1st drive of the game, Chilly admitted that the O was struggling even my 6 year old asked why we didnt take the Field Goal...job well done O...job well done...a coach never gives into his QB i dont care who the heck it is! thats why your the coach...and hes on your team.
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  2. #12
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    Re: 4th and short.

    After digesting all of the data, I am left with one conclusive observation. Clearly, no one expected us to be stupid enough to hand off to Tahi or pass to Berrian on 3rd/4th and short, because each time we did it, we were successful...shocking as that might seem.
    Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. - H.L. Mencken

    Come from the land of the ice and snow...

  3. #13
    Infidel is offline Star Spokesman
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    Re: 4th and short.

    Remind me......did the failure on 4th and short come when Favre's pass was slapped down?

    So was the failure to get it a failure of pass protection?
    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
    --John Wooden

  4. #14
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    Re: 4th and short.

    Prophet wrote:
    The 4th and short yardage blunders are a point of contention, so I was wondering how the boys handled this during the 2009 season.

    The raw data is below and it is pulled off of nfl.com in the ‘play by play’ section. The only information I pulled off was stuff from each game where it was 3rd and 2 or less or 4th and two or less. I considered the play a success if it resulted in a first down or a TD. I excluded all punts and field goals.

    I am aware of the rounding errors and the low N, if you feel inclined to complain about that then please print this and roll it up tightly, shove it up your ass, and then force it down your own throat and while you are gurgling and gagging youtube your complaints to Webby and the complaints department. It will be handled appropriately.

    The summary of the information is as follows for the 2009 season:

    3rd and short (2 yds or less)
    This information is presented with the player, then percentage of time they received the ball in this scenario and their success rate (there is some rounding error).
    AD 48% 68%
    CT 17% 50%
    Shiancoe 7% 67%
    Berrian 4% 100%
    Dugan 4% 100%
    Harvin 4% 50%
    Rice 4% 50%
    Tahi 2% 100%
    Lewis 2% 100%
    Favre 2% 100%
    Young 2% 100%
    Kleinsasser 2% 0%

    4th and short (same format as above)
    AD 21% 67%
    Rice 21% 100%
    Tahi 14% 100%
    Berrian 7% 100%
    Dugan 7% 0%
    CT 7% 0%
    Harvin 7% 0%
    Shiancoe 7% 0%
    Kleinsasser 7% 0%

    What does this all mean? Well, I guess AD does a lot better in the fourth and shorts than I was thinking he did and CT didn’t do as well as I thought he did. Rice and AD were tied for helping out in the success of the 4th and shorts while CT barely registered in the charts.

    In summary, it doesn’t mean a damn thing because it’s a myopic look at one part of the game while blocking everything else from my mind. At a minimum, I hopefully made you waste some of your life reading this over and contemplating what it all means. If I did that, my plan was successful.

    Raw Data

    Game 1 (Vikings 34 Browns 20)

    3-1-CLE 40 (5:45-1st quarter) 28-A.Peterson right guard to CLV 33 for 7 yards (22-B.McDonald).
    3-1-CLE 24 (3:48-1st quarter) 83-J.Dugan right guard to CLV 19 for 5 yards (50-E.Barton, 52-D.Jackson).
    3-1-MIN 29 (4:39-2nd quarter) 29-C.Taylor left tackle to MIN 29 for no gain (26-A.Elam).
    3-2-MIN 34 (1:14-2nd quarter) (Shotgun) 4-B.Favre pass incomplete short left to 29-C.Taylor [95-K.Wimbley].
    3-1-CLE 1 (10:10-3rd quarter) 28-A.Peterson left guard for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.
    3-1-MIN 27 (7:14-3rd quarter) 28-A.Peterson right guard to MIN 29 for 2 yards (52-D.Jackson).

    Game 2 (Vikings 27 Lions 13)

    3-1-DET 47 (13:33-3rd quarter) 28-A.Peterson left tackle to DET 48 for -1 yards (40-M.Manuel; 55-L.Foote).
    3-2-DET 25 (2:23-4th quarter) 29-C.Taylor left tackle to DET 25 for no gain (24-K.Pearson).
    4-2-DET 25 (2:18) (Shotgun) 7-T.Jackson pass short right to 29-C.Taylor to DET 11 for 14 yards (50-E.Sims). DET-50-E.Sims was injured during the play (during garbage time at end of game). This was followed by taking the knee to run out the clock, needed the first down to do this.

    Game 3 (Vikings 27 9ers 24)

    3-1-MIN 41 (1:00-4th quarter) (Shotgun) 4-B.Favre pass short right to 12-P.Harvin to MIN 46 for 5 yards.
    4-5-SF 47 (1:55) (Shotgun) 4-B.Favre pass incomplete short right to 12-P.Harvin (31-D.Bly) (after 2 min. warning at end of the game, followed by a 3 and out and the infamous G. Lewis catch)
    3-3-SF 32 (:12) (Shotgun) 4-B.Favre pass deep right to 17-G.Lewis for 32 yards, TOUCHDOWN [99-M.Lawson]. The Replay Assistant challenged the pass completion ruling, and the play was Upheld.

    Game 4 (Vikings 30 Packers 23)

    3-1-MIN 42 (8:31-1st quarter) 28-A.Peterson left end to MIN 45 for 3 yards (54-B.Chillar, 50-A.Hawk).
    3-2-MIN 31 (10:14-2nd quarter) (Shotgun) 4-B.Favre pass short right to 18-S.Rice to GB 45 for 24 yards (38-T.Williams).
    3-1-MIN 29 (14:02-3rd quarter) 28-A.Peterson left tackle to MIN 34 for 5 yards (90-B.Raji).
    4-1-GB 10 (4:45-1st quarter) 28-A.Peterson left guard to GB 8 for 2 yards (79-R.Pickett, 50-A.Hawk). This resulted in a Shiancoe TD a couple plays later.

    Game 5 (Vikings 38 Rams 10)

    3-1-STL 37 (13:21-4th quarter) 28-A.Peterson right guard to SL 33 for 4 yards (53-P.Lenon).
    3-2-STL 15 (10:43-4th quarter) (Shotgun) 4-B.Favre pass short left to 87-B.Berrian pushed ob at SL 7 for 8 yards (43-C.Dahl).
    3-1-MIN 29 (5:26-4th quarter) 7-T.Jackson pass short right to 38-N.Tahi to SL 39 for 32 yards (32-B.Fletcher).
    3-1-STL 1 (2:00-4th quarter) 29-C.Taylor right tackle for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.

    Game 6 (Vikings 33 Ravens 31)

    3-1-BAL 35 (10:13-3rd quarter) 28-A.Peterson left guard to BLT 33 for 2 yards (26-D.Landry).
    3-1-BAL 1 (10:12-4th quarter) 4-B.Favre pass short right to 81-V.Shiancoe for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.

    Game 7 (Vikings 17 Steelers 27)

    3-1-PIT 12 (6:41-2nd quarter) 28-A.Peterson left guard to PIT 3 for 9 yards (25-R.Clark, 22-W.Gay).
    3-2-PIT 2 (5:17-2nd quarter) 28-A.Peterson left guard for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN. MIN-38-N.Tahi was injured during the play.
    3-1-PIT 1 (4:52-3rd quarter) 4-B.Favre pass incomplete short middle to 40-J.Kleinsasser [92-J.Harrison]. Coverage by #51 Farrior.
    4-1-PIT 35 (6:47-3rd quarter) 4-B.Favre pass short middle to 18-S.Rice to PIT 1 for 34 yards (43-T.Polamalu).

    Game 8 (Vikings 38 Packers 26)

    3-2-GB 2 (2:02-1st quarter) 28-A.Peterson left guard to GB 1 for 1 yard (54-B.Chillar, 77-C.Jenkins).
    3-2-GB 2 (13:39-4th quarter) 4-B.Favre pass short right to 83-J.Dugan for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
    4-1-GB 1 (1:21-1st quarter) 28-A.Peterson right guard for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.
    4-1-GB 7 (6:58-2nd quarter) 28-A.Peterson right guard to GB 8 for -1 yards (50-A.Hawk, 79-R.Pickett).
    4-7-GB 24 (:33-4th quarter)) 29-C.Taylor left end to GB 22 for 2 yards (20-A.Bigby, 50-A.Hawk). Yard marker changed due to change of possession.

    Game 9 (Vikings 27 Lions 10)

    3-2-MIN 38 (2:12-3rd quarter) 4-B.Favre pass incomplete short right to 18-S.Rice. DET-60-J.Cohen was injured during the play. His return is Probable.
    4-1-DET 8 (4:26-2nd quarter) 83-J.Dugan up the middle to DET 8 for no gain (90-G.Jackson).

    Game 10 (Vikings 35 Seahawks 9)

    3-1-MIN 30 (9:08-1st quarter) 28-A.Peterson right end to MIN 39 for 9 yards (36-L.Milloy).
    3-2-MIN 34 (12:52-3rd quarter) 28-A.Peterson left guard to MIN 32 for -2 yards (57-D.Hawthorne).
    3-1-SEA 41 (7:39-3rd quarter) 28-A.Peterson left end to SEA 40 for 1 yard (92-B.Mebane, 79-R.Bryant).

    Game 11 (Vikings 36 Bears 10)

    3-2-MIN 40 (10:27-4th quarter) 28-A.Peterson right end to MIN 43 for 3 yards (95-A.Adams; 94-M.Harrison).

    Game 12 (Vikings 17 Cardinals 30)

    3-2-MIN 16 (2:30-3rd quarter) (Shotgun) 4-B.Favre pass short middle to 87-B.Berrian to MIN 21 for 5 yards (25-B.McFadden) [78-A.Branch].
    3-1-MIN 25 (3:38-4th quarter) 28-A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 24 for -1 yards (78-A.Branch, 58-K.Dansby).
    3-1-ARI 45 (1:36-4th quarter) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 4-B.Favre pass short left to 29-C.Taylor to ARZ 31 for 14 yards (25-B.McFadden, 27-M.Adams).
    4-2-MIN 24 (3:07-4th quarter) (Shotgun) 4-B.Favre pass short right to 18-S.Rice to MIN 32 for 8 yards (22-M.Ware).

    Game 13 (Vikings 30 Bengals 10)

    3-1-MIN 47 (2:43-1st quarter) 28-A.Peterson up the middle to CIN 38 for 15 yards (41-C.Ndukwe). CIN-42-C.Crocker was injured during the play. His return is Probable.
    3-2-MIN 49 (2:01-2nd quarter) 4-B.Favre up the middle to CIN 47 for 4 yards (57-Dh.Jones).
    3-2-CIN 25 (1:07-2nd quarter) 4-B.Favre pass short middle to 81-V.Shiancoe to CIN 12 for 13 yards (43-T.Nelson).
    3-1-CIN 1 (8:44-3rd quarter) 28-A.Peterson up the middle for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.

    Game 14 (Vikings 7 Panther 26)

    3-1-MIN 45 (9:45-2nd quarter) 28-A.Peterson right tackle to MIN 44 for -1 yards (53-N.Diggs, 50-J.Anderson).

    Game 15 (Vikings 30 Bears 36 OT)

    3-1-MIN 33 (11:57-2nd quarter) 29-C.Taylor left guard to MIN 42 for 9 yards (92-H.Hillenmeyer).
    3-2- (9:47-2nd quarter) (Shotgun) 29-C.Taylor right end to 50 for no gain (71-I.Idonije).
    3-2-CHI 22 (12:55-4th quarter) 28-A.Peterson right tackle to CHI 23 for -1 yards (91-T.Harris, 55-L.Briggs).
    3-1-CHI 41 (2:52-4th quarter) 28-A.Peterson right tackle to CHI 38 for 3 yards (20-C.Steltz).
    4-6-CHI 6 (:22-4th quarter) (Shotgun) 4-B.Favre pass short left to 18-S.Rice for 6 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

    Game 16 (Vikings 44 Giants 7)

    3-1-NYG 13 (15:00-2nd quarter) 28-A.Peterson right guard to NYG 13 for no gain (96-B.Cofield, 94-M.Kiwanuka).
    3-2-NYG 6 (8:10-3rd quarter) (Shotgun) 4-B.Favre pass incomplete short middle to 12-P.Harvin.
    3-1-NYG 1 (6:25-3rd quarter) 4-B.Favre pass incomplete short right to 81-V.Shiancoe.
    3-1-MIN 41 (2:24-4th quarter) 34-A.Young right guard to MIN 46 for 5 yards (41-C.Brown; 94-M.Kiwanuka).
    4-1-NYG 13 (14:49-2nd quarter) (Run formation) PENALTY on MIN-40-J.Kleinsasser, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 13 - No Play.
    4-1-NYG 31 (:46-2nd quarter) 38-N.Tahi up the middle to NYG 29 for 2 yards (96-B.Cofield; 98-F.Robbins).
    4-1-NYG 1 (6:18-3rd quarter) 4-B.Favre pass short left to 38-N.Tahi for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.
    Could I have the long version please?

  5. #15
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    Re: 4th and short.

    Infidel wrote:
    Remind me......did the failure on 4th and short come when Favre's pass was slapped down?

    So was the failure to get it a failure of pass protection?
    No

  6. #16
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    Re: 4th and short.

    Favre's fault?
    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
    --John Wooden

  7. #17
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    Re: 4th and short.

    OK, 4th and short on the goal line........

    Yes, we can run the ball but...... I don't think we are a power running team that is going to get 1.5 yards. We don't move the line like a power running team would. Zone blocking works well with AP, but I think it turns the linemen into mush when it comes power situations.

    I would have preferred the pass on that play. Oh well!

  8. #18
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    Re: 4th and short.

    Infidel wrote:
    Favre's fault?
    If he looked down the WR then partially his fault. But, you have to attribute the ball being batted down to good play by the d lineman. We had a knock down on Henne like that and I attributed it to our lineman. It is only fair.

  9. #19
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    Re: 4th and short.

    I wish I could see that play again.

    Sometimes a knock down is good play by somebody on D.

    Sometimes it's a mistake in pass protection.

    You have to see the play to know for sure.
    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
    --John Wooden

  10. #20
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    Re: 4th and short.

    snowinapril wrote:
    OK, 4th and short on the goal line........

    Yes, we can run the ball but...... I don't think we are a power running team that is going to get 1.5 yards. We don't move the line like a power running team would. Zone blocking works well with AP, but I think it turns the linemen into mush when it comes power situations.

    I would have preferred the pass on that play. Oh well!
    Fair.

    I consider the facts that:

    We had already failed at 4th and short via passing
    Favre had already thrown two goalline INTs
    DD was running very well

    and think that a run was the preferred option.

    -V-
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

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