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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    We wont be able to trade him because of his contract - no team will pay that overhead knowing they would have to beat it next year to retain him, or restructure with a huge signing bonus. It would be cheaper to wait a year and try him on the market.
    I am not so sure about that. Yeah, he has a big salary hit but to a team that needs him they would have the option of having an extension done as a term of the trade wouldn't they? If they want him but wait for him to hit FA they run the risk of the Vikings re-signing him and losing the chance or getting into a bidding war with other teams that could drive up his price. Unless I am mistaken and it is not legal to trade for a player and redo their deal at the same time.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Tasty,
    I read a lot of your post and generally like their quality. This one... not so much.
    No one is talking about restructuring Allen's deal. I am talking about extending. The reason a lot of teams backload contracts is to afford in them in the early years and then extend them later on. Again my issue is paying Allen what he is worth...which is about 12 million a year for 3 more years. He hindered our cap this offeseason....

    Entering this year we have the following players that should be resigned.
    Griffen - 1 year
    Robinson - 1 year
    Cook - 1 year
    Evans - 1 year
    AJ Jefferson - 1 year
    Toby - 1 year
    Simpson - year
    Are you telling me we couldn't use some of that money to get an early job on these guys?
    It's shortsighted. Lastly, I wouldn't call myself a Jared Allen fan. Ask Marr, I preferred Peppers to him. I don't like that he only rushes from the right and limits our defense. However, for us to act like it's time to put him out to pasture because he is 31...is a bit premature. I mean...he's 31 and has not shown a dip in performance ( did anyone really expect 22 sacks every season).
    EXTEND the contract get some cap space and start signing some of these other guys before they hit FA and we end up paying more ( Loadholt) cause that ruins your cap!
    This post I can get on board with. As a general philosophy it is DEFINITELY good practice to have a bit of spare cap space for extending guys a year early. The one disagreement I have with this is that it's not as simple as offering an ascending player a "fair" deal and grappling the pen and paper. These athletes are professionals and guys like Loadholt know that hitting the open market = more $$ for them. You can definitely offer them an extension but there's no one holding a gun to the players heads to sign either. I'm sure Jared would be happy to stay here but he knows the closer to FA he gets, the more money he'll stand to gain. Hopefully him and Spielman can meet in the middle.

    If the Vikings start extending the 1st/2nd rounders from the last 2-3 years a year early at fair prices because they want to be here, I forsee us both being happy.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Tasty,
    I read a lot of your post and generally like their quality. This one... not so much.
    No one is talking about restructuring Allen's deal. I am talking about extending. The reason a lot of teams backload contracts is to afford in them in the early years and then extend them later on. Again my issue is paying Allen what he is worth...which is about 12 million a year for 3 more years. He hindered our cap this offeseason....

    Entering this year we have the following players that should be resigned.
    Griffen - 1 year
    Robinson - 1 year
    Cook - 1 year
    Evans - 1 year
    AJ Jefferson - 1 year
    Toby - 1 year
    Simpson - year
    Are you telling me we couldn't use some of that money to get an early job on these guys?
    It's shortsighted. Lastly, I wouldn't call myself a Jared Allen fan. Ask Marr, I preferred Peppers to him. I don't like that he only rushes from the right and limits our defense. However, for us to act like it's time to put him out to pasture because he is 31...is a bit premature. I mean...he's 31 and has not shown a dip in performance ( did anyone really expect 22 sacks every season).
    EXTEND the contract get some cap space and start signing some of these other guys before they hit FA and we end up paying more ( Loadholt) cause that ruins your cap!
    Everybody wants more money. I wish all players would agree to a 20% paycut across the board. Think of all the players we could sign with that kind of extra cap space.

    I highly doubt Jared would accept your offer. He would get more on the open market and if you ask him to reduce this year's payout, then you essentially reduce his average salary over the term of his current contract. Kind of a double insult. The player's that agree to the deals you are suggesting are players that are in decline. I don't think Jared feels that he is going downhill anytime soon.

    If you want this guy around, I believe you have to continue to pay him more money than you are suggesting. At least until FA says otherwise.

    That's the part that I think you fail to acknowledge in this whole discussion. Jared is not interested in a paycut. Your proposal is a paycut.

    And not to nitpick. But your are talking about both restructuring (changing the current year salary cap hit via a salary cut for this year) and extending (adding more years to average out to $12M/yr). You can't just simply add 3 years at lower dollar values and get relief from this year without redoing the terms of the final year of this contract. Right now he is set to get $14.2M in base salary, $2.6M in signing bonus and $200K in roster bonus. Even if you give him a new contract, that $2.8M will be added to the salary cap hit for this year.

    If you give a solid example of the type of deal you are suggesting it would be easier to discuss. But the end result is that JA would have to agree to a pay cut that he said he is not interested in doing.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    Everybody wants more money. I wish all players would agree to a 20% paycut across the board. Think of all the players we could sign with that kind of extra cap space.

    I highly doubt Jared would accept your offer. He would get more on the open market and if you ask him to reduce this year's payout, then you essentially reduce his average salary over the term of his current contract. Kind of a double insult. The player's that agree to the deals you are suggesting are players that are in decline. I don't think Jared feels that he is going downhill anytime soon.

    If you want this guy around, I believe you have to continue to pay him more money than you are suggesting. At least until FA says otherwise.

    That's the part that I think you fail to acknowledge in this whole discussion. Jared is not interested in a paycut. Your proposal is a paycut.

    And not to nitpick. But your are talking about both restructuring (changing the current year salary cap hit via a salary cut for this year) and extending (adding more years to average out to $12M/yr). You can't just simply add 3 years at lower dollar values and get relief from this year without redoing the terms of the final year of this contract. Right now he is set to get $14.2M in base salary, $2.6M in signing bonus and $200K in roster bonus. Even if you give him a new contract, that $2.8M will be added to the salary cap hit for this year.

    If you give a solid example of the type of deal you are suggesting it would be easier to discuss. But the end result is that JA would have to agree to a pay cut that he said he is not interested in doing.
    No... Allen said he isn't interested in a restructure. Huge difference.
    Why is this so hard? I keep asking and repeating but it's like it doesn't stick.
    He doesn't want a restructure. Which is when you get your pay cut because you aren't performing. He feels that he is performing so he would like to stay with this contract or get an extension which would lower his salary but give him stability.

    "You use the word restructure and that to me makes it feel like they'd want me to take a pay cut"

    To restructure. Just like Winny did, Kevin Williams, Jenkins, etc.
    When you are under performing teams don't extend you... they restructure your contract. That is what he is saying. He is not interested in restructuring. He wants a new contract.

    "And if anybody asked me to take a pay cut, I'd be through the first door out of there"

    What player says he would be out the door to discuss an extension? He is talking if the team comes and says...hey you have a year left...will you play for 12 million for that year. Just like they did Winny. Just like they did Williams, Jenkins.

    Can we put this to rest? Can we stop saying the same incorrect thing over and over.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flair Hay View Post
    This post I can get on board with. As a general philosophy it is DEFINITELY good practice to have a bit of spare cap space for extending guys a year early. The one disagreement I have with this is that it's not as simple as offering an ascending player a "fair" deal and grappling the pen and paper. These athletes are professionals and guys like Loadholt know that hitting the open market = more $$ for them. You can definitely offer them an extension but there's no one holding a gun to the players heads to sign either. I'm sure Jared would be happy to stay here but he knows the closer to FA he gets, the more money he'll stand to gain. Hopefully him and Spielman can meet in the middle.

    If the Vikings start extending the 1st/2nd rounders from the last 2-3 years a year early at fair prices because they want to be here, I forsee us both being happy.
    That's why teams don't wait till the year of to offer contracts. Teams get young guys wait a couple of years and throw the money at them. Most are just happy to be making that kind of money early in their contracts. When you wait till there are only 6 months left before FA... Thier agents start to smell the dollars.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    No... Allen said he isn't interested in a restructure. Huge difference.
    Why is this so hard? I keep asking and repeating but it's like it doesn't stick.
    He doesn't want a restructure. Which is when you get your pay cut because you aren't performing. He feels that he is performing so he would like to stay with this contract or get an extension which would lower his salary but give him stability.

    "You use the word restructure and that to me makes it feel like they'd want me to take a pay cut"

    To restructure. Just like Winny did, Kevin Williams, Jenkins, etc.
    When you are under performing teams don't extend you... they restructure your contract. That is what he is saying. He is not interested in restructuring. He wants a new contract.

    "And if anybody asked me to take a pay cut, I'd be through the first door out of there"

    What player says he would be out the door to discuss an extension? He is talking if the team comes and says...hey you have a year left...will you play for 12 million for that year. Just like they did Winny. Just like they did Williams, Jenkins.

    Can we put this to rest? Can we stop saying the same incorrect thing over and over.
    maybe just for shits and giggles you need to lay out when and how you would have doe his contract, what the numbers would have looked like and how it would have impacted the salary cap while maintaining his current salary. That would help.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    That's why teams don't wait till the year of to offer contracts. Teams get young guys wait a couple of years and throw the money at them. Most are just happy to be making that kind of money early in their contracts. When you wait till there are only 6 months left before FA... Thier agents start to smell the dollars.
    Correct me if I am wrong but don't most players have these people called agents who's job is to get them the maximum amount of money from the teams they can? Do you think the agents just sit back and let the players sign for less than they know they can get them?


    If that is the case, would you agree that there are times when it is in the players and the agents best interest to wait with the contract and test free agency to see what the top of the market is rather than signing a contract early and possibly leaving dollars on the table that they could have had if they waited? Do you have some published information that demonstrates that signing early is better for a player than waiting until the contract is due?

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    maybe just for shits and giggles you need to lay out when and how you would have doe his contract, what the numbers would have looked like and how it would have impacted the salary cap while maintaining his current salary. That would help.
    What does that have to do with you thinking a restructure and extension is the same thing.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong but don't most players have these people called agents who's job is to get them the maximum amount of money from the teams they can? Do you think the agents just sit back and let the players sign for less than they know they can get them?


    If that is the case, would you agree that there are times when it is in the players and the agents best interest to wait with the contract and test free agency to see what the top of the market is rather than signing a contract early and possibly leaving dollars on the table that they could have had if they waited? Do you have some published information that demonstrates that signing early is better for a player than waiting until the contract is due?
    You are right...sometimes agents say, you know what, lets wait till free agency.
    However....in this case....THEY NEVER CONTACTED HIM OR HIS AGENT.....

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    What does that have to do with you thinking a restructure and extension is the same thing.
    It has to do with you showing us how what you say can be done. It should be simple for someone like yourself with extensive football financial planning knowledge.

    Unless you are just full of crap of course.
    Last edited by Purple Floyd; 05-29-2013 at 07:06 PM.

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