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  1. #71
    tarkenton10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    That has been my stance. If we trade home we should be able to get a first and a second at least for him plus maybe another player.bundle the two picks plus our first and go get another QB in next yeas draft if one is there and if Ponder doesn't pan out this year.

    If by chance e does we have multiple picks in the first 2 rounds again.
    Bundle the picks and get clowney, the man is a beast!!

    There s only two things stopping you - fear and common sense!! The Truth you CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flair Hay View Post
    Lol were you trained to be the only one who can look at things objectively or is it just a natural gift you possess because I sure am interested...no need for the high horse.

    Good moves that help more than hurt (IMO) last 2 years

    Harvin for 25th 2013 + 3rd in 2014 and bringing in Jennings with the cap savings
    Kalil over Blackmon/Claiborne
    Trading up for Smith for free
    Trading up for Patterson to fill Harvin's role
    Drafting Walsh


    Questionable to just bad moves
    Trading up for Toby
    Signing Carlson
    Cutting Winfield too early
    The big reach on Ponder

    This is just off the top of my head I know I'm missing lots. They seem to balance out, with the bright side being the good moves still have several years of cheap production ahead we can count on to build around. Missing on Ponder is the one that will hurt us the most if he can't become way more consistent this year. Overall our mid-late round drafting has been average compared to the rest of the league. Not one of the best but we certainly have a good number of players that are capable starters drafted after round two. We're not a top five organization in the league. But I definitely think this off-season was a step in the right direction more so than a step back.

    Id say almost everyone in this thread is oversimplifying the process of cap management quite a lot. The team is setting up for a potential title run a year or two from now by my view so personally I'm fine with taking a step back this year (Winfield, Harvin, not signing a veteran MLB, etc) for the future flexibility it will provide us. If that makes me a 'yes man' wearing coloured shades then I'll make an avatar or something to accommodate.
    Amen to that. Very amusing listening to all the theories on how simple of a process this entails. It's only simple if you ignore many of the variables involved.

  3. #73
    Flair Hay is offline Rookie
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    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...y-may-24-2013/

    Found an interesting piece devoted solely to Jared's willingness (or lack of) to restructure his deal

    Further, consider the players who have a higher APY than him all played significantly less snaps overall — if the average amount of snaps for a “full-time” DE is 60 snaps then Mario Williams (APY of $16m) played two full games less (121 less snaps), Charles Johnson (APY of $12.6m) played over 3.5 games less (216 snaps) and Julius Peppers (APY of $14m) more than a quarter of a season and nearly 4.5 games less (266 snaps). Whatever you wish to say about Allen, you cannot say he doesn’t give value in terms of playtime.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flair Hay View Post
    The team is setting up for a potential title run a year or two from now by my view so personally
    So you must think we're going after Johnny Football to replace Ponder also or did you have a different QB in mind?

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    Amen to that. Very amusing listening to all the theories on how simple of a process this entails. It's only simple if you ignore many of the variables involved.
    No one is oversimplifying anything but the lemmings will cosign on any off the wall comment. It's a fact... our FO does not do a good job with out Cap. Every year we are cap strapped that's not good cap management...

    This board is laughable at times. Everyone is to blame but Rick and Co...because they got you some first round picks. You know this fanbase is a special kind of vagine when they start hacking on guy that played all last season hurt, has been the definition of a team guy here and has actually brought some excitement back to a team that was quickly falling into Browns territory. Like I said...everyone is to blame but the FO, they guys who job it is to prevent 1 player from making 10% of your cap. All of a sudden the Allen hatred stories are popping up.

    First it was Rice, Then Harvin, Now Allen

  6. #76
    Flair Hay is offline Rookie
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    So you must think we're going after Johnny Football to replace Ponder also or did you have a different QB in mind?
    That's the million dollar question. By setting themselves up I mean the team as a whole. I agree that could very well be the franchise's Achilles heel. My hope is that after another year of experience Ponder gets better. If not, the search goes on. I'm not by any means tied to Ponder.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    No one is oversimplifying anything but the lemmings will cosign on any off the wall comment. It's a fact... our FO does not do a good job with out Cap. Every year we are cap strapped that's not good cap management...

    This board is laughable at times. Everyone is to blame but Rick and Co...because they got you some first round picks. You know this fanbase is a special kind of vagine when they start hacking on guy that played all last season hurt, has been the definition of a team guy here and has actually brought some excitement back to a team that was quickly falling into Browns territory. Like I said...everyone is to blame but the FO, they guys who job it is to prevent 1 player from making 10% of your cap. All of a sudden the Allen hatred stories are popping up.

    First it was Rice, Then Harvin, Now Allen
    Now I'm confused, are you referring to the link I posted? Did you read it or are you talking about something else. The conclusion of the article is that Jared is arguably worth his salary...

    And yeah dude, I think you are oversimplifying. The reason he counts for 10% of the cap is because the FO made it so the earlier years' cap hits were cheaper. His AAV is right in line for his contributions. It's not like we can't re-sign the guy if we want to after this season?

    Rice we lost because we went all in with Favre trying to win it all. Keeping Greebway over him and Edwards was definitely the right move in hindsight. I really do miss Sidney though. The Steelers have been contenders for like 20 years now and they're always losing guys to FA if they want too much coin. They themselves are in this cap hell you speak of.

    Harvin, you know my thoughts on how that trade worked out. I don't understand why you keep alluding to "lemmings" who S Spielman's D. Maybe I'm looking at the same team as you and seeing different things. Crazy I know. I get that you hate a lot about what the FO has done, but nothing in any of your posts I read indicate your viewpoint of the team has any more intelligence to it than many of the "lemmings" that you speak of. Talk football man, don't kid yourself...you're not any more or less bright than most of the posters on this site.

    I'm just of the opinion that our future cap space 1-2 years from now should be valued higher than having cap space for this season. It's certainly debatable and I don't expect all to agree but that's how I feel the team has its best chance of winning a title. Feel free to disagree.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    No one is oversimplifying anything but the lemmings will cosign on any off the wall comment. It's a fact... our FO does not do a good job with out Cap. Every year we are cap strapped that's not good cap management...

    This board is laughable at times. Everyone is to blame but Rick and Co...because they got you some first round picks. You know this fanbase is a special kind of vagine when they start hacking on guy that played all last season hurt, has been the definition of a team guy here and has actually brought some excitement back to a team that was quickly falling into Browns territory. Like I said...everyone is to blame but the FO, they guys who job it is to prevent 1 player from making 10% of your cap. All of a sudden the Allen hatred stories are popping up.

    First it was Rice, Then Harvin, Now Allen
    The Allen contract was backloaded for a reason, the FO was well aware it was coming, Allen has played to expectations of his contract and value of the term of the contract. You look at the contract in isolation (last year only), and it seems outlandish, but when you put everything into perspective, it was a fair contract that paid out over the term of 6 years. I thought from the beginning of pre-season that the Allen contract would be the hardest to deal with, he feels he has earned his pay day and doesn't have much reason to sitdown and redo a contact. The Vikings could opt to cut him, but other than that, I really doubt Allen is going to listen to a lot of restructuring (including extension) at this time. And don't come back and try to redefine what those terms mean. You can both restructure and extend at the same time.

    He signed a 6 yr/$73,260,069 contract. This year he will make $17M ($2.7M is the last of his signing and roster bonus). If you look at what he's been paid to date it equates to $11.2M/yr. With this last year, it will equal $12.2M/yr. If you don't pay him the $17M this year you reduce his average pay from $12M/y down to $11M/yr.

    If you fall in love with players, this game is going to be very hard for you to follow as the cap restrictions have tightened up and loyalty is at an all time low.

    Here's another article that tries to put it into perspective:
    Jared Allen: Not a Big Deal DE Hasn't Talked Contract

    The Vikings would have been stupid to ask Allen to rework his deal. He’s earned his massive contract, and the team had plenty of cap room to work with this season, regardless of how massive Allen’s deal is. The team knows No. 69, and they know that asking him to restructure his contract, would only anger him.
    Read more at Jared Allen: Not a Big Deal DE Hasn't Talked Contract
    I know you'll take exception to the plenty of cap room statement, but I think Jared has earned his last year pay out and if we want him after this year we will more than likely have to give him another massive contract or someone else will.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    So you must think we're going after Johnny Football to replace Ponder also or did you have a different QB in mind?
    I get your Ponder hate, but putting that whole TJack I mean Ponder thing aside, I would hold off on Johnny Football as a savior just yet. I still have a lot of questions as to whether he is a legitimate NFL QB.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    The Allen contract was backloaded for a reason, the FO was well aware it was coming, Allen has played to expectations of his contract and value of the term of the contract. You look at the contract in isolation (last year only), and it seems outlandish, but when you put everything into perspective, it was a fair contract that paid out over the term of 6 years. I thought from the beginning of pre-season that the Allen contract would be the hardest to deal with, he feels he has earned his pay day and doesn't have much reason to sitdown and redo a contact. The Vikings could opt to cut him, but other than that, I really doubt Allen is going to listen to a lot of restructuring (including extension) at this time. And don't come back and try to redefine what those terms mean. You can both restructure and extend at the same time.

    He signed a 6 yr/$73,260,069 contract. This year he will make $17M ($2.7M is the last of his signing and roster bonus). If you look at what he's been paid to date it equates to $11.2M/yr. With this last year, it will equal $12.2M/yr. If you don't pay him the $17M this year you reduce his average pay from $12M/y down to $11M/yr.

    If you fall in love with players, this game is going to be very hard for you to follow as the cap restrictions have tightened up and loyalty is at an all time low.

    Here's another article that tries to put it into perspective:
    Jared Allen: Not a Big Deal DE Hasn't Talked Contract



    I know you'll take exception to the plenty of cap room statement, but I think Jared has earned his last year pay out and if we want him after this year we will more than likely have to give him another massive contract or someone else will.
    Tasty,
    I read a lot of your post and generally like their quality. This one... not so much.
    No one is talking about restructuring Allen's deal. I am talking about extending. The reason a lot of teams backload contracts is to afford in them in the early years and then extend them later on. Again my issue is paying Allen what he is worth...which is about 12 million a year for 3 more years. He hindered our cap this offeseason....

    Entering this year we have the following players that should be resigned.
    Griffen - 1 year
    Robinson - 1 year
    Cook - 1 year
    Evans - 1 year
    AJ Jefferson - 1 year
    Toby - 1 year
    Simpson - year
    Are you telling me we couldn't use some of that money to get an early job on these guys?
    It's shortsighted. Lastly, I wouldn't call myself a Jared Allen fan. Ask Marr, I preferred Peppers to him. I don't like that he only rushes from the right and limits our defense. However, for us to act like it's time to put him out to pasture because he is 31...is a bit premature. I mean...he's 31 and has not shown a dip in performance ( did anyone really expect 22 sacks every season).
    EXTEND the contract get some cap space and start signing some of these other guys before they hit FA and we end up paying more ( Loadholt) cause that ruins your cap!

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