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  1. #61
    Minniman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainviking View Post
    For example, Jared Allen is making 14 mil this year with a total cap hit of 17+ due to his signing bonus 5 years ago.
    As I said the day that contract was signed; it was a bad contract for the Vikings. The Vikings messed up that trade in two critical ways: they did not have the trade picks set prior to trying to sign Allen; they allowed Allen to have too much leverage in signing his contract. That cost the Vikings an extra draft pick, and it allowed this back-end monster of a contract to come alive.

    As with the draft this season, there was a lot of hype about getting Allen, but looking at the details is not as glorious as reading the headlines. Those of us who examined this at the time and presented a critical analysis were labeled as being negative. The Vikings have a mess on their hands now, and it is their own making.

    If I was in the FO, I would seriously consider trading Allen into the AFC. They will not get much for him because of his contract. It does not matter if Allen plays well this season; it matters that his contract is not a good value, and his value over replacement is not that high.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minniman View Post
    If I was in the FO, I would seriously consider trading Allen into the AFC. They will not get much for him because of his contract. It does not matter if Allen plays well this season; it matters that his contract is not a good value, and his value over replacement is not that high.
    We wont be able to trade him because of his contract - no team will pay that overhead knowing they would have to beat it next year to retain him, or restructure with a huge signing bonus. It would be cheaper to wait a year and try him on the market.

    That being said, I think the Vikings got value for Allen's contract. He is one of the best DEs to play the game, a leader in the locker room, a strong veteran presence, and at 31 he is still performing.

    I disagree that the Vikings have a mess on their hands now. They have a large cap hit this year, yes, but they prepared for it, are managing it, and I believe they have a plan for the future. I think the plan is to let him hit free agency, try to retain him for cheaper, but most likely let him go and address it with a younger player. I think that is a good business plan, and next year we will have a lot more cap space to work with.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    If they all pan out, enjoy them for the next 3-4 years. They'll all be looking for big paydays around that time that Spielman will be reluctant/unable to pay to most of them. We'll have 2nd rounders & Walsh to all lock up around that same time frame too.
    Crap. That is a really good point. I don't think that Spielman will be reluctant to pay them because he likes to retain players who are on their second contract - it is the older players he is more reluctant to pay. But the unable part is likely true. The down side of having two great drafts in a row is we will likely have a lot of quality players coming up for their second contracts at the same time. Brzezinski is going to have his work cut out for him...
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  4. #64
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    mountainviking is offline Team Alumni
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    Hopefully, every year we will have lots of players who deserve new contracts! Thing is, you have to plan ahead...like, not getting tied into paying an aging vet like Jared Allen 15+ mil/year, and perhaps, extending some early with roster bonus that are not prorated, so you can get it off the books in one year. This way we can keep most of our younger guys who are still up and coming. And, not all contracts are created equal...Kalil will command about 10/year, but Rudolf and Smith only about 6...its not like the top guys at every position get paid 15 mil/year.

    CB: Franchise: $10.668 Transition: $8.939

    DE: Franchise: $10.984 Transition: $8.994

    DT: Franchise: $8.306 Transition: $6.919

    K/P: Franchise: $2.926 Transition: $2.654

    LB: Franchise: $9.455 Transition: $8.216

    OL: Franchise: $9.660 Transition: $8.560

    QB: Franchise: $14.642 Transition: $12.845

    RB: Franchise: $8.079 Transition: $6.851

    S: Franchise: $6.798 Transition: $5.899

    TE: Franchise: $5.962 Transition: $5.105

    WR: Franchise: $10.357 Transition: $8.716
    Franchise tag numbers tentatively set; 2013 cap near $121M - NFL.com
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

    "Balance it on end and thats the third side of the coin!!" -wookiefoot

  5. #65
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    jmcdon00 is offline Jersey Retired Snake Champion, Moto Trial Fest 2: Mountain Pack Champion, LL City Truck 2 Champion, Arithmetic sequence Champion, Troops Tower Defense Champion
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minniman View Post
    As I said the day that contract was signed; it was a bad contract for the Vikings. The Vikings messed up that trade in two critical ways: they did not have the trade picks set prior to trying to sign Allen; they allowed Allen to have too much leverage in signing his contract. That cost the Vikings an extra draft pick, and it allowed this back-end monster of a contract to come alive.

    As with the draft this season, there was a lot of hype about getting Allen, but looking at the details is not as glorious as reading the headlines. Those of us who examined this at the time and presented a critical analysis were labeled as being negative. The Vikings have a mess on their hands now, and it is their own making.

    If I was in the FO, I would seriously consider trading Allen into the AFC. They will not get much for him because of his contract. It does not matter if Allen plays well this season; it matters that his contract is not a good value, and his value over replacement is not that high.
    It's a lot of money, but the Vikings couldn't have asked for any more than they got from Jared. 74 sacks in 5 years, and hasn't missed a single game. One of the best trades in Vikings history.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    If they all pan out, enjoy them for the next 3-4 years. They'll all be looking for big paydays around that time that Spielman will be reluctant/unable to pay to most of them. We'll have 2nd rounders & Walsh to all lock up around that same time frame too.
    IMO, that is a good problem to have.

    Much better than making shitty draft picks. Even if you only get their rookie contracts of play time, if they outplay their contracts, you received a lot of value. The future salary caps will determine how lucrative FA is for the majority of players and how many we will try and retain.

    The NFL today is not about retaining players throughout their football careers, but rather constantly managing the roster with value players. The draft now more than ever is the best way to accomplish it.

  7. #67
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Actually the TE i was talking about was not Rudolph... I was talking about late round draft picks. Rudolph was a 2nd rounder.

    The players you all brought up were 1st or 2nd rounders. You completely missed the fact that my post was about drafting in the late rounds. Don't worry... no one actually reads on this board... they just regurgitates the same hogwash everyone else does.

    I am a Vikings fan through. I bleed purple. However, I have the rare ability to take off the purple shades and look at what we have.

    Purple shades on = Wright looks great. Who needs Harvin
    Purple shades off = He looked decent and may or may not develop.
    Purple shades on = Spielman is a genius... he got us 3 fist rounders
    Purple shades off = He got us 3 fist rounders in a draft that was deep as hell. The talent we got was significant...however, does this excuse the fact that we miss on most of the late rounders we draft, is unable to hold on to a lot of the talent we do draft, and continue to mismanage our cap...preventing us from signifigantly playing in the FA market. I'm not talking top tier talent. I am talking B level talent asking for D level contracts (i.e Karlos Dansby, DJ WIlliams). Had our FO done it's job. We would have been able to extend Allen for 3 years at a lower salary than he is making now and bring in a quality star MLB. Instead now we are asking Erin to play MLB and balking on an unknown OLB.
    Amen to that... not to mention the kings ransoms we give marginal players (Carlson 20mil 4 years) then pay a 29 year old injury prone Greg Jennings 8-9 mil a year.... then there's Greenway making 10mil a year.. and you can see a bad trend here....

    These are all good players just overpaid by about 2-3 mil a year...

    and yes, the lack of back round draft talent and undrafted free agents hasn't been very good to us at all.

  8. #68
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxVike View Post
    Ring the bell!
    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    I'm pretty sure Brady restructured his contract & actually got a pay increase, while the team got $15mil in cap relief.

    They could have restructured JA's contract without cutting his pay. This is simply done the same way the Patriot's did it. That is to pay a chunk of his upcoming salaries as a "bonus" & then dividing that bonus over the contract years.
    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    If you are adding years... its an extension.
    If you maintain the same number of years its a restruture.
    Why are we struggling with that....

    Tom Brady, New England Patriots agree on three-year extension - NFL - Peter King - SI.com

    Tom Brady took a huge step today to ensure he'll retire a Patriot, agreeing to a three-year contract extension

    Crunching the numbers on Patriots quarterback Tom Brady’s contract extension - Sports - The Boston Globe

    Crunching the numbers in Tom Brady’s extension

    Tom Brady extension with Patriots includes $30 million signing bonus - SBNation.com
    Tom Brady extension with Patriots includes $30 million signing bonus

    Please get the terms right!

    How ever you are right...they could have extended him and saved money. Apparently... this is unknown to purple floyd and others on this board.
    While you are right... it's not true bc you can restructure by giving the guy more bonus money up front and keeping the years the same for cap relief.. esp. in between league years to move money around. it happens all the time and doesn't necessarily have to be an extention.

    With that said, I dont' agree with giving Allen more money... he's good but only cares about sacks, and won't come off the field when sometimes he needs to.... We were 3-13 a few years ago and he was still doing his sack dance even if we were down 20 points.... Great player but he can go if he want's insane money....

    I see him getting the franchise tag for another year or a new modest deal. the franchise number should come down a little bc the market was so bad for DE's last year... Griffin should be priority #1...

  9. #69
    Flair Hay is offline Rookie
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    I am a Vikings fan through. I bleed purple. However, I have the rare ability to take off the purple shades and look at what we have.
    Lol were you trained to be the only one who can look at things objectively or is it just a natural gift you possess because I sure am interested...no need for the high horse.

    Good moves that help more than hurt (IMO) last 2 years

    Harvin for 25th 2013 + 3rd in 2014 and bringing in Jennings with the cap savings
    Kalil over Blackmon/Claiborne
    Trading up for Smith for free
    Trading up for Patterson to fill Harvin's role
    Drafting Walsh


    Questionable to just bad moves
    Trading up for Toby
    Signing Carlson
    Cutting Winfield too early
    The big reach on Ponder

    This is just off the top of my head I know I'm missing lots. They seem to balance out, with the bright side being the good moves still have several years of cheap production ahead we can count on to build around. Missing on Ponder is the one that will hurt us the most if he can't become way more consistent this year. Overall our mid-late round drafting has been average compared to the rest of the league. Not one of the best but we certainly have a good number of players that are capable starters drafted after round two. We're not a top five organization in the league. But I definitely think this off-season was a step in the right direction more so than a step back.

    Id say almost everyone in this thread is oversimplifying the process of cap management quite a lot. The team is setting up for a potential title run a year or two from now by my view so personally I'm fine with taking a step back this year (Winfield, Harvin, not signing a veteran MLB, etc) for the future flexibility it will provide us. If that makes me a 'yes man' wearing coloured shades then I'll make an avatar or something to accommodate.

  10. #70
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxVike View Post
    Ring the bell!
    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    I'm pretty sure Brady restructured his contract & actually got a pay increase, while the team got $15mil in cap relief.

    They could have restructured JA's contract without cutting his pay. This is simply done the same way the Patriot's did it. That is to pay a chunk of his upcoming salaries as a "bonus" & then dividing that bonus over the contract years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flair Hay View Post
    Lol were you trained to be the only one who can look at things objectively or is it just a natural gift you possess because I sure am interested...no need for the high horse.

    Good moves that help more than hurt (IMO) last 2 years

    Harvin for 25th 2013 + 3rd in 2014 and bringing in Jennings with the cap savings
    Kalil over Blackmon/Claiborne
    Trading up for Smith for free
    Trading up for Patterson to fill Harvin's role
    Drafting Walsh


    Questionable to just bad moves
    Trading up for Toby
    Signing Carlson
    Cutting Winfield too early
    The big reach on Ponder

    This is just off the top of my head I know I'm missing lots. They seem to balance out, with the bright side being the good moves still have several years of cheap production ahead we can count on to build around. Missing on Ponder is the one that will hurt us the most if he can't become way more consistent this year. Overall our mid-late round drafting has been average compared to the rest of the league. Not one of the best but we certainly have a good number of players that are capable starters drafted after round two. We're not a top five organization in the league. But I definitely think this off-season was a step in the right direction more so than a step back.

    Id say almost everyone in this thread is oversimplifying the process of cap management quite a lot. The team is setting up for a potential title run a year or two from now by my view so personally I'm fine with taking a step back this year (Winfield, Harvin, not signing a veteran MLB, etc) for the future flexibility it will provide us. If that makes me a 'yes man' wearing coloured shades then I'll make an avatar or something to accommodate.
    the biggest glaring mistake is Ponder. You can't mess up your QB pick.. you just can't. let's figure out how the Jennings signing will go along with drafting Patterson and whether or not Ponder grows up before we start talking about super bowl run!

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