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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Your comprehension of my statement translated we have a lot of talent but we are also letting a lot go.... as meaning that we are to resign everyone?

    This is fucking simple....
    The FO has not approached Jared Allen about an extension
    His contract hurt us in FA because we had to cut a team leader, restructure another team leaders contract and missed on not filling out our roster (namely MLB).
    That is the FO'd job and they fucked up. Not only that but our leader on defense is not happy about it. How can he not be happy about making 17 million? Players like to feel wanted, the contract is amazing but it's an issue for him, you can tell by the statement.

    Nice diversion. If it is so simple then why don't you use a bit of that brilliance and lay out how YOU would have done things? Who would you have cut or not signed so we had the money you wanted to pay JA last year or who would you be releasing in order to cover the pro rated part of any signing bonus that he would have gotten with an extension last year.

    For example, football team owners have designed "signing bonuses" to circumvent the cap. The signing bonus is a sum of money that a player gets that doesn't fall directly under the umbrella of the salary cap. That way, a player can earn more money without detracting enormous amounts from other players' salaries.
    Signing bonuses do count against the salary cap, though: The signing bonus is prorated over the length of a player's contract. While this means that less money is taken from the salary cap each year, if the player leaves before his contract is up, the remaining amount of the signing bonus with be detracted from the next year's salary cap [source: Lackner].
    Again- he said he wasn't listening to a reduction in salary which means any extension would be for more years at the same or greater salary. Yes, they can do a signing bonus but that gets applied against the cap over the term of the contract so while it may have given us a little wiggle room in the first year, it would impact the cap for the rest of the duration of the contract and could very well have a negative impact in the last few years of the contract or also if we tried to trade him or if he got hurt.

    So, since it is established pretty clearly that we have not had a lot of cap room for a few years and since any extension that maintains his salary at the current level or even reduced and applied to a signing bonus will still impact the salary cap that we already have burned up or accounted for, tell us exactly how you would make it work and still have the dollars to sign Winfield, Harvin and the rest of the guys you have been bitching about Spielman not inking.

  2. #52
    Flair Hay is offline Rookie
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    Below average front office? Okay..

    the Ponder pick I won't debate as clearly it was a huge reach. But I'm not sure what you expect them to do. The last two drafts weren't perfect but they were probably both top five league wide. But in a salary cap league when you can add 5 first rounders in 3 years that are locked into cheap, 5 year contracts you are doing a lot right. I wanted to see Harvin to stick around but we arguably came out better for it long term despite having Spielman having a hand tied behind his back

    The defense has the potential by next season to be the best we've had since before I was born. I'm puzzled as to why there's so much to be negative about. Losing Winfield hurts fr this year, but resigning prime aged veterans was a higher priority to me. Lots to discuss beyond that when I've got more time but I'm genuinely excited about the direction the franchise is headed despite a couple hiccups (any outside FA signing lol) along the way.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    Nice diversion. If it is so simple then why don't you use a bit of that brilliance and lay out how YOU would have done things? Who would you have cut or not signed so we had the money you wanted to pay JA last year or who would you be releasing in order to cover the pro rated part of any signing bonus that he would have gotten with an extension last year.



    Again- he said he wasn't listening to a reduction in salary which means any extension would be for more years at the same or greater salary. Yes, they can do a signing bonus but that gets applied against the cap over the term of the contract so while it may have given us a little wiggle room in the first year, it would impact the cap for the rest of the duration of the contract and could very well have a negative impact in the last few years of the contract or also if we tried to trade him or if he got hurt.

    So, since it is established pretty clearly that we have not had a lot of cap room for a few years and since any extension that maintains his salary at the current level or even reduced and applied to a signing bonus will still impact the salary cap that we already have burned up or accounted for, tell us exactly how you would make it work and still have the dollars to sign Winfield, Harvin and the rest of the guys you have been bitching about Spielman not inking.
    Wash cycle spin....
    Come on you are brighter than this.
    If his contact came with a signing bonus/roster he would be paid the same or more total money this year. His issue is simply reducing his salary without something in return (i.e an extension and security for more years). He is not just beign a dick head and saying i deserve 17 million. What he has said is that you won't do me like you did Kevin Williams and that is pay him less money this year without anything in return. He wants and extension and he won't mind takign less for it. However, askign him to reduce his 1 year salary just becuase is undeserving and and he feels he has earned his salary or an extension. It's not that hard and you know you were wrong.. just admit it. Man up and admit it.

    Also to you second point about any extension will eat up the cap... this is so not true as you well know, when working with numbers, you can play with the cap to your advantage. Every year teams move large stacks of money around to years that they have less of a cap responsibility....

    For example... Lets say AP contract was is like this
    2013 - 12million
    2014 - 14 milion
    2015 - 8 million
    2016 - 16 million
    2017 - 10 million

    Moving Jareds a large amount of extra salary to contract figures to 2015 would allow us to pay him a larger chunk that year. Other teams do it all the time. We don't and that is exactly why we seem strapped for cash even though we have undergone a complete revamp of our team. We should have extra cap laying around but we don't because our cap genius don't play with the cap as well as other teams do (better than I would at this point but thats not hard).
    Last edited by kevoncox; 05-27-2013 at 09:09 PM.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flair Hay View Post
    Below average front office? Okay..

    the Ponder pick I won't debate as clearly it was a huge reach. But I'm not sure what you expect them to do. The last two drafts weren't perfect but they were probably both top five league wide. But in a salary cap league when you can add 5 first rounders in 3 years that are locked into cheap, 5 year contracts you are doing a lot right. I wanted to see Harvin to stick around but we arguably came out better for it long term despite having Spielman having a hand tied behind his back

    The defense has the potential by next season to be the best we've had since before I was born. I'm puzzled as to why there's so much to be negative about. Losing Winfield hurts fr this year, but resigning prime aged veterans was a higher priority to me. Lots to discuss beyond that when I've got more time but I'm genuinely excited about the direction the franchise is headed despite a couple hiccups (any outside FA signing lol) along the way.
    That's my point. It's easy to say a draft looked good when you have 5 first rounders. What would our drafts look like if we were drafting like most of the other teams out there with 1 first rounder. Is there anything you saw us do in the 3-7 ( besides draft the best ST players a tad high) that makes you feel that we can walk away with 3 players that could start for most teams every year? I have not. Only thing we have going for us is the fact that we trade a top 10 player int his league away and was granted an extra first round pick. How abotu how they manage the cap? How about their inability to get anyone resigned before free agency. How about not extended players and allowing us to sit in cap hell.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainviking View Post
    But it's not just that simple...

    The thing I think some of you are missing about the restructered/extension, is that it only delays the inevitable. Eventually, those dollars will all count toward our cap.

    For example, Jared Allen is making 14 mil this year with a total cap hit of 17+ due to his signing bonus 5 years ago. Say we want to add 3 years to his deal, instead of his salary this year, we pay him in a fully guaranteed clump that he gets up front as a signing bonus, let's say it stays at 14 mil. Now that bonus only counts 1/4 against the cap this year, so sure, great, for one year his cap hit goes down to 3.5 mil + the other 3.5 we still owe from the last contract for a total of around 7 this season, awesome! Or is it? Because, in the next 3 years he is still going to want to be paid at least 10 mil/year and probably more, say, 12 average? (the pack gave Mathews around 13/year!?!) That means in the next 3 seasons his cap hit jumps right back up to 15.5/year making it much harder on our FO to do the other things all the fans want, like sign a vet MLB or QB in Free Agency, or extend our own guys like Robison and Griffen.

    Again, the FA game has changed, because the cap is flat, and teams no longer have the luxury of signing the big, back loaded contracts of yesteryear without worry because that extra 10+/year of space isn't going to just show up anymore.
    Except mountain..
    The cap is not flat every year. Contracts are offered and built specifically to allot the moving of figures from one player to the next.

    A Good FO might have signed Jennings to 9 million a year...but in year two he gets only 4.5... that extra 4.5 might allow you craft a contract for someone else that takes advantage of the following year. Also as a FO person this year... I would take a chance and offer Allen a fully guaranteed 3 year extension (with an injury clause) for a hell of a lot less money than the contract he may never see. A lot of players will jump on this because guaranteed money talks..... You do it with a vet like Allen because his drop off in play is not going to happen until 34-35, which is exactly when this contact ends. 30 million fully guaranteed contract at 10 million a year...would save us money and should make him very happy.

  6. #56
    Flair Hay is offline Rookie
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    That's my point. It's easy to say a draft looked good when you have 5 first rounders. What would our drafts look like if we were drafting like most of the other teams out there with 1 first rounder. Is there anything you saw us do in the 3-7 ( besides draft the best ST players a tad high) that makes you feel that we can walk away with 3 players that could start for most teams every year? I have not. Only thing we have going for us is the fact that we trade a top 10 player int his league away and was granted an extra first round pick. How about how they manage the cap? How about their inability to get anyone resigned before free agency. How about not extended players and allowing us to sit in cap hell.
    The kicker did pretty well. Wright seems to be good but not great. It's a little convenient to leave out that one of those first rounders was moved up from a second by fleecing a free draft pick out of Cleveland...

    You want them to manage the cap better which is fair. But a HUGE part of doing that is trading that top ten player as soon as he's due for an extension (ie: $9M more per season or so more than his replacement we drafted. That's $9M more that can be used to retain our starters and sign the occasional FA. I probably would have been okay losing Sanford if it meant keeping Winfield another year or two. That one bugs me.

    As for Jared, it's pretty likely he's around going into next season unless we choose not to have him. He's been a great player for the team and we'll have the money to re-sign him for a few more seasons at a good but not elite rate. If he wants elite money and Spielman doesn't agree they can always franchise him for a year. That's also if Griffin isn't able to step up and assume a starter's role if we can't re-sign Jared.

    As for your last point, the negotiating thing is a two way street. Loadholt was likely planning on coming back all things equal but if he signed before free agency he would have lost out on a lot of coin. Most players test free agency to see what kind of offers are out there, for Phil it paid off big time.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Wash cycle spin....
    Translation- you cannot answer a simple question in a direct manner so you need to deflect the topic by throwing in some juvenile comment. Point taken. Now....

    Come on you are brighter than this.
    Than your responses? Yes.


    If his contact came with a signing bonus/roster he would be paid the same or more total money this year.
    OK that is where you are just not making any sense and you refuse to answer how you get to your thought process.

    How would he be paid more total money this year than he already is without either not signing some of the players we did or cutting additional players to make up for it? You have been bitching that we let Whinny go and didn't resign Harvin but for the love of god we have a salary cap and we are already at the ceiling and still didn't do half of what you wanted because of it and yet you can't make the connection.

    We were at the top of the salary cap last year, the year before and also this year. There was not the room to give a signing bonus to JA without cutting some other players. I don't know what next year looks like but maybe we will have more space next year and can do what you are looking for. This year and last year are not options.



    His issue is simply reducing his salary without something in return (i.e an extension and security for more years). He is not just beign a dick head and saying i deserve 17 million.
    You know this how? He stated specifically that reducing his salary period was not an option. Anything different than that you are just speculating.



    What he has said is that you won't do me like you did Kevin Williams and that is pay him less money this year without anything in return.
    No, what he said was if he was asked to take a pay cut he would be through the door. With that point established there are no options to pay him less.




    He wants and extension and he won't mind takign less for it.

    Conjecture

    However, askign him to reduce his 1 year salary just becuase is undeserving and and he feels he has earned his salary or an extension. It's not that hard and you know you were wrong.. just admit it. Man up and admit it.
    Admit what- that you are making shit up out of thin air and trying to pass it off as his spoken words? Or admit that you are digging yourself into a hole and now you are setting the stage to try and backpedal your way back out.

    Also to you second point about any extension will eat up the cap... this is so not true as you well know, when working with numbers, you can play with the cap to your advantage. Every year teams move large stacks of money around to years that they have less of a cap responsibility....
    Listen. You can move numbers around but in the end you still need them to balance. This isn't the federal government and the Vikings can't just print money when every dollar is accounted for.

    I am sure you also know that when you give those signing bonuses that they are prorated across the total term of the contract and that you cannot move those dollars around from year to year and that if you do use the signing bonus on a player and you end up cutting, trading or waiving them, the entire remainder of the signing bonus gets accelerated to count against the cap for that year,which obviously can throw a monkey wrench in your scheme.

    As to your last sentence- what teams specifically are you talking about that moved stacks of money around? What was the mechanism that they used to do that and what years did they have so much cap room? Were any of those teams the Vikings? If not why?




    For example... Lets say AP contract was is like this
    2013 - 12million
    2014 - 14 milion
    2015 - 8 million
    2016 - 16 million
    2017 - 10 million
    But it isn't and contracts aren't done like that. They don't move the numbers up and down randomly- no contract goes 12-14-8-16-10. That is just silly. Link?



    Moving Jareds a large amount of extra salary to contract figures to 2015 would allow us to pay him a larger chunk that year. Other teams do it all the time. We don't and that is exactly why we seem strapped for cash even though we have undergone a complete revamp of our team. We should have extra cap laying around but we don't because our cap genius don't play with the cap as well as other teams do (better than I would at this point but thats not hard).
    The Vikings do as good a job as anyone with the cap. The examples you used are just fantasy stuff if you honestly believe they do individual contracts that go up and down randomly over the term of the contract.

  8. #58
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    Purple,
    You're wrong. Face it.
    He said he is against restructuring his contract. You tried to dance around that but the sooner you come to grasp that the terms are not to interchangeable... you will be better off. Don't worry plenty of professional writers made the same mistake. Some words have a clear meaning. Allen doesn't want to take less money just because we need him too. He wants an extension.

    An actually it's not that contracts go up randomly. Its often crafted that way. I can't believe that you think the only option in creating a contract is to A) front load it, B) Backload it or c) Have it at a fixed number. Many teams agree to give signing different bonuses at different years. Quick research will show that they can be front loaded and back loaded and light in the middle.

    Michael Johnson isnít thinking about an extension with Bengals | ProFootballTalk

    Wants an extension!
    Wait did it say he wants to restructure?
    Guaranteed money is what these guys want.

    "I am sure you also know that when you give those signing bonuses that they are prorated across the total term of the contract and that you cannot move those dollars around from year to year and that if you do use the signing bonus on a player and you end up cutting, trading or waiving them, the entire remainder of the signing bonus gets accelerated to count against the cap for that year,which obviously can throw a monkey wrench in your scheme.

    As to your last sentence- what teams specifically are you talking about that moved stacks of money around? What was the mechanism that they used to do that and what years did they have so much cap room? Were any of those teams the Vikings? If not why?"
    +

    Teams move these dollars around all the time via contracts. Hell Brady's new deal just moved it around as well and that was the example you used. There are an arsenal of devices used to move money around the problem is when you do so... its mostly guaranteed which teams don't like as it is riskier. Teams often restructure contracts (not extend) and move money from one year to another to clear cap room to sign other players. It happens all the time.

    I guess always being cap strap is doing a good job.
    Last edited by kevoncox; 05-27-2013 at 11:38 PM.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    It's easy to say a draft looked good when you have 5 first rounders.
    If they all pan out, enjoy them for the next 3-4 years. They'll all be looking for big paydays around that time that Spielman will be reluctant/unable to pay to most of them. We'll have 2nd rounders & Walsh to all lock up around that same time frame too.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    (null)
    You keep missing the point to where I think it is time to pull the plug-

    You wanted the team to restructure or extend Allen a few years ago. He would not take less total money and they were at the cap max since probably 2008 or 2009 with not much cap room because of the bug money they paid to Brett and also the contracts of other long term vets and the dollars already committed to other vet contracts. Hopefully we both agree there.


    Then they gave Peterson a big contract. That contract had a signing bonus that is applied against the cap. It does not pay one amount one year, go up the next, then down and then back up as your example stated and neither do other contracts. Your example link was to a one year render that paid X dollars that year as they worked out an extension. If that is what you want them to do with Allen then it gets back to my question- if that was done last year or this year and the numbers counted against either year then who do you sacrifice to do it? If you are prorating it last year then the bonus money is prorated against this years cap as well as the salary which adds to the cap unless he rakes less per year which he has stated is a non starter,

    Extensions can give freedom in a given year but they always need to be paid at done point and if you backload them too much you end up in trouble. Allen's contract oats him a lot in the later years and that is the problem now . The Oats did load his contract with bonus money that is back dated and it will eventually bite them in the butt. They already gutted the defense to keep him on the roster and they do not have the depth they used to due to the salary he has already drawn.

    Every move has a price. You either pay now and have to make roster decisions this year or you push the dollars back and make those decisions in future years. One way or the other big contracts cause you to thin out talent at other positions at some point in time whether that is this year or a later year.

    And as Singer eluded to in a few years we will be facing several early round players contracts coming up for new deals and that is going to be a concern too. Especially if you back load lots of current contracts.

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