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  1. #121
    tastywaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post

    Yet, I'll bite.
    I would give Jared Allen a 7 year - 70 million dollar contract. His signing bonus will be 50 million and I will pay it as 1 million for the first 6 years +salary and the rest all in the 7th year. That's my contract. It's laughable. It's funny. Now disprove it. Show me where we we won't have 43 million in cap space in 7 years to afford him. Prove to me that he won't accept it. You can't as it's all conjecture. So instead of trying to prove what I personally know or don't know about salary caps...you can focus on the fact I beleive that the FO could have done a better job.
    You don't get to choose how you pay out the signing bonus. It is pro-rated over the term of the contract (ie., $7M/yr under your proposal). You also have to add the $2.6M in guaranteed money left on his current contract to the first year's cap hit. So this year, just with guaranteed money, you would be hit with close to $10M. That's before you allocate his salary.

    I highly doubt anyone will give Jared a 7 year contract with that much guaranteed money. If you decide to cut the guy before the contract expires, then the remainder of the signing bonus counts against the cap during the year you cut him. That is if you cut him in year 4, you will have close to $30M left in signing bonus and it would all count against the cap in th at year.

    Just to try and help you out a bit. Lets look at swallowing his current year and redoing it into a 5 year deal that would take him through the 2017 season.

    Lets make a couple of assumptions (that you can feel free to correct me on).

    Assumption #1: Free up $5M from the this year's cap
    Assumption #2: create an effective payout of $12M/yr. Anything less I believe is unreasonable for JA at this point
    Assumption #3: Keep the signing bonus down to a reasonable amount ($20M) so you can cut him if performance deteriorates with out creating a huge cap event

    The total contract value would have to equal the current $17M owed plus another 4 years at $12M which is a total of $65M over 5 years. If you take $20M as a signing bonus, then you have $45M to dish out over 5 years. This $45M can be allocated at any agreed upon amount, but realize the player will want it front loaded as much as possible.

    The $20M over 5 years equates to $4M/yr that is counted against the cap. Plus you have to add the $2.6M currently outstanding which equates to $6.6M counting against the cap in year one.

    This would give a contract structure that could look something like this:

    Salary Signing Bonus Cap hit
    $5.4M $6.6M $12M
    $9M $4M $13M
    $10M $4M $14M
    $10M $4M $14M
    $11M $4M $15M

    The only realistic years he could be cut under that contract is year 4 or 5. The cap hit if he is cut would look like this:

    Cap Hit
    Year 2 $16M
    Year 3 $12M
    Year 4 $8M
    Year 5 $4M

    So you are pretty much stuck with him for at least 3 years even if he is not producing.

    Now, if you wait until next year and still want to give him a $12M/yr contract through 2017. It would look like this:

    $48M/contract, $16M signing bonus. Using the same numbers as above.

    Salary Signing bonus Cap hit
    2014 $7M $4M $11M
    2015 $8M $4M $12M
    2016 $8M $4M $12M
    2017 $9M $4M $13M

    Essentially it gives you an extra $2M/yr in cap relief over the life of the contract.

    Again, you can play with the salary numbers. In both cases it requires a long term commitment to Jared, that I'm not sure is the wisest move. But if you have to do it, I think it's best to wait and see how he looks this year. Another way to ensure value is to try and get him to sign up for incentive based pay. JA might be willing to do a fair amount of this as I think he's quite confident in himself.

  2. #122
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    I think the new cba also has set a limit to how much of that years salary cap can be tied to signing bonus dollars, also with a heavy bonus structure aside from cutting Allen, trading him and if he were to retire for any reason all that signing money comes due so things would have to be more balance between signing bonus, other guarantees, roster bonus and incentives to protect the team

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikinggreg View Post
    I think the new cba also has set a limit to how much of that years salary cap can be tied to signing bonus dollars, also with a heavy bonus structure aside from cutting Allen, trading him and if he were to retire for any reason all that signing money comes due so things would have to be more balance between signing bonus, other guarantees, roster bonus and incentives to protect the team
    Yes, a signing bonus heavy contract is unrealistic. I think 30% or less of the total contract value is all you see. Rodgers just signed a $120M contract with $35M in signing bonus. Flacco, $120M contract with $29M signing bonus. The highest signing bonus I could find was with Albert Haynesworth who was given $41M on a $100M contract.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikinggreg View Post
    I think the new cba also has set a limit to how much of that years salary cap can be tied to signing bonus dollars, also with a heavy bonus structure aside from cutting Allen, trading him and if he were to retire for any reason all that signing money comes due so things would have to be more balance between signing bonus, other guarantees, roster bonus and incentives to protect the team
    Just read a few articles on the new CBA and its effect on signing bonuses. I didn't see any hard limits, but they did mention that because the player's cut of the revenue has been reduced to 48%, the salary cap is not expected to grow at the rate it did in the past. Meaning that teams are more reluctant to backload contracts and tie up a lot cap space in future years with signing bonuses. Higher salary contracts (vs. signing bonuses) will be more in vogue as teams try to stay flexible in future years.

    In past years high signing bonuses were good for both the players and cap management. Today they are mostly good for the players, but not so much for cap management.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    Just read a few articles on the new CBA and its effect on signing bonuses. I didn't see any hard limits, but they did mention that because the player's cut of the revenue has been reduced to 48%, the salary cap is not expected to grow at the rate it did in the past. Meaning that teams are more reluctant to backload contracts and tie up a lot cap space in future years with signing bonuses. Higher salary contracts (vs. signing bonuses) will be more in vogue as teams try to stay flexible in future years.

    In past years high signing bonuses were good for both the players and cap management. Today they are mostly good for the players, but not so much for cap management.
    The other thing that did lower the cap dollar levels as well and is part of the 48% is the players get noncontract dollar benefits which I think the big ticket item was post career medical coverage and I'm not sure if the league was upping their percentage of contributions to the retirement fund....those things cut into how the final cap number rolled back

  6. #126
    Flair Hay is offline Rookie
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    Tastywaves just laid the smack down on a roody poo candy ass

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    Again, you can play with the salary numbers. In both cases it requires a long term commitment to Jared, that I'm not sure is the wisest move. But if you have to do it, I think it's best to wait and see how he looks this year. Another way to ensure value is to try and get him to sign up for incentive based pay. JA might be willing to do a fair amount of this as I think he's quite confident in himself.
    You don't have to help me out as the contract wasn't serious to begin with.
    Your break down was great and an I opener. While the additional 2 million a year we are spending for Allen hits the cap....is that not worth the ability and the flexibility to sign our FAs during the season.....I am going to drum up a realistic 3 year contract that I wanted to give him just to quell some flames... brb.

    I change my mind...
    I think I'm leaving the site for good. Everyone have a great season.
    Last edited by kevoncox; 05-31-2013 at 01:23 PM.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Still not getting through to you...
    I can say George W Bush was a terrible president.
    And it would be the first time you were actually right about something.




    Do I have to know how to sign a bill into law to prove he was? No, I could simply look at the state of the country after his term. The comparisom of the his presidency is to other presidents, other world leaders. Now if I had said...I could be president. that would be different and then you seeking my qualifications to do so would be applicable....
    Well, in that case you would still need to be able to understand what he did and how it effected the country to make an educated expression. Otherwise you are just spewing drivel... Even if the answer ends up being right.


    Flash back to the issue at hand....
    Our FO handles player signings poorly. They are a below average FO in many of their tasks.
    You asking me to provide a contract for JA is asenine as it neither proves or disproves my remark.
    No, but it gives me some context into your comprehension of the topic you are talking about.

    Yet, I'll bite.
    I would give Jared Allen a 7 year - 70 million dollar contract. His signing bonus will be 50 million and I will pay it as 1 million for the first 6 years +salary and the rest all in the 7th year. That's my contract.
    Well, considering that I already posted links for you to read at your leisure and have explained further the salary cap will be spread evenly over seven years which is 7.14 Million dollars a year over the term. Now, when he gets cut in year 3 or traded every dollar of the remaining 28.56 Million dollars will count against the cap that year and as Donald Trump says- you are friggin fired.




    It's laughable. It's funny. Now disprove it.
    Just did.



    Show me where we we won't have 43 million in cap space in 7 years to afford him.
    Well, kind because that 50 Million counts against the cap for 7.17 Million a year so after 7 years it pretty much equals 40 Million dollar plus the salary amount that you forget to add for us to work with.


    Prove to me that he won't accept it.
    I can care less if he accepts it, I just care if the team can afford it. And if his performance drops off and we need to cut or trade him, how much that will hurt the cap when everything gets accelerated.



    You can't as it's all conjecture. So instead of trying to prove what I personally know or don't know about salary caps...you can focus on the fact I beleive that the FO could have done a better job.
    I think you should study up a bit and actually understand how the whole process works before you claim that someone isn't doing it right. Seems to me what you would do to the team is a train wreck waiting to happen. I will side with the current FO.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    You don't get to choose how you pay out the signing bonus. It is pro-rated over the term of the contract (ie., $7M/yr under your proposal). You also have to add the $2.6M in guaranteed money left on his current contract to the first year's cap hit. So this year, just with guaranteed money, you would be hit with close to $10M. That's before you allocate his salary.

    I highly doubt anyone will give Jared a 7 year contract with that much guaranteed money. If you decide to cut the guy before the contract expires, then the remainder of the signing bonus counts against the cap during the year you cut him. That is if you cut him in year 4, you will have close to $30M left in signing bonus and it would all count against the cap in th at year.

    Just to try and help you out a bit. Lets look at swallowing his current year and redoing it into a 5 year deal that would take him through the 2017 season.

    Lets make a couple of assumptions (that you can feel free to correct me on).

    Assumption #1: Free up $5M from the this year's cap
    Assumption #2: create an effective payout of $12M/yr. Anything less I believe is unreasonable for JA at this point
    Assumption #3: Keep the signing bonus down to a reasonable amount ($20M) so you can cut him if performance deteriorates with out creating a huge cap event

    The total contract value would have to equal the current $17M owed plus another 4 years at $12M which is a total of $65M over 5 years. If you take $20M as a signing bonus, then you have $45M to dish out over 5 years. This $45M can be allocated at any agreed upon amount, but realize the player will want it front loaded as much as possible.

    The $20M over 5 years equates to $4M/yr that is counted against the cap. Plus you have to add the $2.6M currently outstanding which equates to $6.6M counting against the cap in year one.

    This would give a contract structure that could look something like this:

    Salary Signing Bonus Cap hit
    $5.4M $6.6M $12M
    $9M $4M $13M
    $10M $4M $14M
    $10M $4M $14M
    $11M $4M $15M

    The only realistic years he could be cut under that contract is year 4 or 5. The cap hit if he is cut would look like this:

    Cap Hit
    Year 2 $16M
    Year 3 $12M
    Year 4 $8M
    Year 5 $4M

    So you are pretty much stuck with him for at least 3 years even if he is not producing.

    Now, if you wait until next year and still want to give him a $12M/yr contract through 2017. It would look like this:

    $48M/contract, $16M signing bonus. Using the same numbers as above.

    Salary Signing bonus Cap hit
    2014 $7M $4M $11M
    2015 $8M $4M $12M
    2016 $8M $4M $12M
    2017 $9M $4M $13M

    Essentially it gives you an extra $2M/yr in cap relief over the life of the contract.

    Again, you can play with the salary numbers. In both cases it requires a long term commitment to Jared, that I'm not sure is the wisest move. But if you have to do it, I think it's best to wait and see how he looks this year. Another way to ensure value is to try and get him to sign up for incentive based pay. JA might be willing to do a fair amount of this as I think he's quite confident in himself.
    Thank you. Pretty much slammed the point home.

  10. #130
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post

    I change my mind...
    I think I'm leaving the site for good. Everyone have a great season.
    Well, you got schooled and now you are taking your toys and going home. Great.

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