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  1. #91
    Flair Hay is offline Rookie
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    You are right...sometimes agents say, you know what, lets wait till free agency.
    However....in this case....THEY NEVER CONTACTED HIM OR HIS AGENT.....
    Perhaps because they would prefer not to lower his cap hit for this season by extending him. Instead, they can let him play out the year and avoid turning some of his 2013 salary into a signing bonus (which would be guaranteed?) and having it be a detriment to the cap if he leaves before his new contract expires.

    This way we have more options depending on a few things:

    1) We can still franchise him at a cap hit less than he's making this year - not sure what the tag costs for DE's but I'd guess its not too far off from the 3 years @$12M you were proposing earlier.

    2) We can still resign him next off-season. I can't imagine his price will go up after playing another season.

    3) If Griffin steps his game up another level and gets close to double digit sacks again in rotational duty AND (hopefully not*) Allen has another season with similar production as 2013...then...We'd have to seriously look at letting Jared walk and giving Griffin the starting job opposite Robison and giving the cheaper two of the three new contracts. He'd have a better cost/production ratio than Allen. Not to mention the age difference going forward.

    I want to see Allen retire a Viking as well. But if Griffin and Robison can produce 3/4 of what the line produces with Allen and Robison at 1/2 the price...There's some of that money you're looking for to avoid "Cap hell." My guess is Spielman is looking for cap savings in a year or two at the expense of Jared and that's why he hasn't been approached about an extension. I'd honestly rather sign him to a one year deal than extend him for 3 more years myself. But that's open to debate too.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flair Hay View Post
    Perhaps because they would prefer not to lower his cap hit for this season by extending him. Instead, they can let him play out the year and avoid turning some of his 2013 salary into a signing bonus (which would be guaranteed?) and having it be a detriment to the cap if he leaves before his new contract expires.

    This way we have more options depending on a few things:

    1) We can still franchise him at a cap hit less than he's making this year - not sure what the tag costs for DE's but I'd guess its not too far off from the 3 years @$12M you were proposing earlier.

    2) We can still resign him next off-season. I can't imagine his price will go up after playing another season.

    3) If Griffin steps his game up another level and gets close to double digit sacks again in rotational duty AND (hopefully not*) Allen has another season with similar production as 2013...then...We'd have to seriously look at letting Jared walk and giving Griffin the starting job opposite Robison and giving the cheaper two of the three new contracts. He'd have a better cost/production ratio than Allen. Not to mention the age difference going forward.

    I want to see Allen retire a Viking as well. But if Griffin and Robison can produce 3/4 of what the line produces with Allen and Robison at 1/2 the price...There's some of that money you're looking for to avoid "Cap hell." My guess is Spielman is looking for cap savings in a year or two at the expense of Jared and that's why he hasn't been approached about an extension. I'd honestly rather sign him to a one year deal than extend him for 3 more years myself. But that's open to debate too.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    It has to do with you showing us how what you say can be done. It should be simple for someone like yourself with extensive football financial planning knowledge.

    Unless you are just full of crap of course.
    So me providing you with a detail nfl quality contract for Jared Allen would help you utilize a word better? Got you! I never said, I should be the person to do it. I said our FO doesn't compared to some of the other FOs out there. So i relent. I cannot craft a contract for Allen. Does that mean it can be done? Does that mean another FO wouldn't have handled it better?

    DOES IT MEAN YOU ARENT STILL ARE USING THE WRONG WORD?

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flair Hay View Post
    Perhaps because they would prefer not to lower his cap hit for this season by extending him. Instead, they can let him play out the year and avoid turning some of his 2013 salary into a signing bonus (which would be guaranteed?) and having it be a detriment to the cap if he leaves before his new contract expires.

    This way we have more options depending on a few things:

    1) We can still franchise him at a cap hit less than he's making this year - not sure what the tag costs for DE's but I'd guess its not too far off from the 3 years @$12M you were proposing earlier.

    2) We can still resign him next off-season. I can't imagine his price will go up after playing another season.

    3) If Griffin steps his game up another level and gets close to double digit sacks again in rotational duty AND (hopefully not*) Allen has another season with similar production as 2013...then...We'd have to seriously look at letting Jared walk and giving Griffin the starting job opposite Robison and giving the cheaper two of the three new contracts. He'd have a better cost/production ratio than Allen. Not to mention the age difference going forward.

    I want to see Allen retire a Viking as well. But if Griffin and Robison can produce 3/4 of what the line produces with Allen and Robison at 1/2 the price...There's some of that money you're looking for to avoid "Cap hell." My guess is Spielman is looking for cap savings in a year or two at the expense of Jared and that's why he hasn't been approached about an extension. I'd honestly rather sign him to a one year deal than extend him for 3 more years myself. But that's open to debate too.
    Well
    When ur paying 17 and then you give him a 1 year contract thats two years and you would probably have to offer him something in 16+ range. Still not a way to run a franchise.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    So me providing you with a detail nfl quality contract for Jared Allen would help you utilize a word better? Got you! I never said, I should be the person to do it. I said our FO doesn't compared to some of the other FOs out there. So i relent. I cannot craft a contract for Allen. Does that mean it can be done? Does that mean another FO wouldn't have handled it better?

    DOES IT MEAN YOU ARENT STILL ARE USING THE WRONG WORD?
    You still hung up on the whole extension-restructure bit? First- in economics the first thing they taught us- if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck- it's a duck. If you don't get that I can't help you.

    Second- choose any word, phrase or title you feel comfortable with and tell me how you would make it work(Whatever the word is) to get JA the same or more money a year and not take up more cap space and make sure that when you do it, you use it in the context and confines of the year that Spielman should have done it. Making sure you keep the rest of the team under the cap and let us know how any salary pushed down the road will impact those years and the players who are up for a contract that year(or even in the next 2 or 3 because Spielman should be extending them early.

    Obviously you said it was easy and that we or at least I was too stupid to figure it out so either admit you were blowing smoke up our keyboards and you really have no clue of what you were talking about or explain in detail what you were talking about so we can poke holes all over your thought process.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    You still hung up on the whole extension-restructure bit? First- in economics the first thing they taught us- if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck- it's a duck. If you don't get that I can't help you.

    Second- choose any word, phrase or title you feel comfortable with and tell me how you would make it work(Whatever the word is) to get JA the same or more money a year and not take up more cap space and make sure that when you do it, you use it in the context and confines of the year that Spielman should have done it. Making sure you keep the rest of the team under the cap and let us know how any salary pushed down the road will impact those years and the players who are up for a contract that year(or even in the next 2 or 3 because Spielman should be extending them early.

    Obviously you said it was easy and that we or at least I was too stupid to figure it out so either admit you were blowing smoke up our keyboards and you really have no clue of what you were talking about or explain in detail what you were talking about so we can poke holes all over your thought process.
    Easy for a good FO =/= easy for me to do. Especially without the figures i need.
    However, if you are unable to grasp the difference between two completely different words like restructure vs. extension... i doubt you would understand me trying to put together this contract you asked for. If you can find we I said I could do it...please point it out. I believe I started by saying......"this FO was below average" That there is a comparison between our FO and others in the league. Did I say I could do this job!!!!!!!

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    He doesn't want a restructure. Which is when you get your pay cut because you aren't performing.
    Again, restructuring doesn't mean that a player is getting a pay cut or that he's under performing.

    Restructuring simply means monies are being moved around, generally salaries get moved into the form of a bonus so that it can be divided over the length of the contract, thereby reducing the cap hit over those years.

    Many players have done that without paycuts & with raises.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Easy for a good FO =/= easy for me to do. Especially without the figures i need.
    However, if you are unable to grasp the difference between two completely different words like restructure vs. extension... i doubt you would understand me trying to put together this contract you asked for. If you can find we I said I could do it...please point it out. I believe I started by saying......"this FO was below average" That there is a comparison between our FO and others in the league. Did I say I could do this job!!!!!!!
    I grasp the terms the way most people do but you seem to have a new version that hasn't been released to the general public which is why it would help for you to lay it out. I understand restructure vs extension just fine.(and remember, you can find different definitions for each term all over the place but in general a restructure as you are defining it( actually a renegotiation if you want to get technical) involves taking the current money and allocating it over a longer period of time than originally written. An extension involves the introduction of new money into the contract and technically since the old one becomes null and void once replaced with the new one it is also technically a renegotiation. The differentiating factor being whether new money is introduced or whether existing dollars are allocated over a different time period.

    One way or the other the point I am trying to get across to you is that whether you do it one way or the other it has an impact on the salary cap. We are taking a big hit with him this year because the contract was backloaded to make the early years easier to digest and to allow the team more dollars to bring in talent as we made the SB push in 2009. We also had contracts with hutch, mckinney, farve and others that impacted the team and besides brett, when those guys left or were traded early, the team took a hit where the rest of their bonus accelerated and was due that year which leads to dead money in the cap that had to be worked off.

    By letting his contract run out this year, the team absorbs the contract in it's entirety this year,which hurts in the short term, but it gives the team options in the next few years to work him into a longer term deal with a smaller cap hit because no money is carried over and it also means in future years we have more cap space to start to reno the contracts of our younger guys who will start to reach the end of their contracts.


    If you think that all of these backloaded contracts are good, think again. The reason you see teams like Dallas reno'ing lots of contracts is because they had too many that were already backloaded and it caused a lot of dead money they needed to absorb while retaining players and they are in a bad spot until they work it off.

    Renegotiating contracts, just like buying on credit may feel good up front because you got something of a certain value while paying less for it in the short term but in the long term it generally costs you more and reduces your purchasing power in later years.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Well
    When ur paying 17 and then you give him a 1 year contract thats two years and you would probably have to offer him something in 16+ range. Still not a way to run a franchise.
    Again, you seem to be pretty ardent you don't like what the FO is doing but you have no clue how you would do it better or how you would like them to do it different. Pushing money back to other years is not always a good thing because it limits what you can do with salaries in future years and from my memory I don't remember too many years where we were both stocked with talent on the roster and also sitting with lots of cap room.

    You also need to understand that we are only a few years into this new CBA and when we had the uncapped year nobody knew how it would impact the cap in the coming years. Many teams overspent during that period,anticipating there would be more money available but the cap turned out to be fairly flat and that is what is causing many of the teams you are praising to reno these contracts and it isn't because they are smart now, it is because they were not wise earlier and they need to create space in the present year at the expense of having less cap space for players in future years. You can't have your cake and eat it.

    I am glad they are letting his contract expire so they can make a decision on what to do with him with a clean slate and not have any old money tied to future years.

  10. #100
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    Read these links. Pretty good stuff.

    Salary Cap 101: Proration, Amortization, Cap Hits, Dead Money And More - Blogging The Boys

    CBA, Article 16, Section 6, Paragraph 5: Proration: The total amount of any signing bonus shall be prorated over the term of the Player Contract (on a straight-line basis, unless subject to acceleration or some other treatment as provided in this Agreement), with a maximum proration of five years, in determining Team Salary and Salary.
    Pretty much puts a nail in the coffin of Kev's argument that they can allocate ascending and descending dollar amounts to a players contract to manipulate the cap.

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    Also to you second point about any extension will eat up the cap... this is so not true as you well know, when working with numbers, you can play with the cap to your advantage. Every year teams move large stacks of money around to years that they have less of a cap responsibility....

    For example... Lets say AP contract was is like this
    2013 - 12million
    2014 - 14 milion
    2015 - 8 million
    2016 - 16 million
    2017 - 10 million
    Flat salary cap forcing NFL teams to restructure numerous contracts

    Like the saying goes, it's robbing Peter to pay Paul: All of the cap room saved in the current year is being pushed back to later years.
    It happens every year in the NFL as competitive teams spend up to the cap to fill in the final pieces of what they believe is a Super Bowl-worthy roster. But the extent of the occurrences this year hasn't been seen in the league since the late 1990s and early 2000s when teams were still trying to learn how to manage the salary cap.

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