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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    I don't think Harvin's frustration stems from contract issues. I think it stems from on field issues. IMHO had he signed an extension he would be just as frustrated if not more because things on game day aren't going the way he wants them to. I could be wrong, but then again so could you. I don't think that this is something we can say was "botched" by the GM without more information.

    And I have been very vocal about the shitty free agency - that isn't what this thread is about though. It isn't titled "2012 Free Agency... one to remember?"...

    And when news came out a few weeks before the draft that Spielman was open to trading down, there was a LOT of negative comments on here about how it was a bad idea and we need to stay put and not miss out. There were also a lot of other comments about how a trade would be great but that was easier said than done. When draft day came, we traded down ONE spot and picked up an extra pick as a result, so Cleveland could pick a player that we didn't want. That means we either played another team(s) against Cleveland to get them to panic and move up or we completely bluffed them. Either way it WAS a good move, and not one that ANYBODY on this forum could have pulled off, despite your claim otherwise.
    The extension is what he wanted during his frustration at camp & throughout the year. That's already been documented. Do I think the game day issues are factoring into it now. Absolutely they are adding to the frustration. That's documented to. We had open receivers that weren't getting thrown to. I think though, had he had his contract extension taken care of prior to the season, his frustration would have been more sub-dued. Instead they are continuing to pile on.


    As far as the draft, yes it was a good move to claim there was interest in the pick. I disagree with others who claim that it was sheer genius like Marrdro does. IMO. It's Draft Day 101. All teams/GM's are going to claim there's already interest in their pick to drive the value up.

    It's nothing new & has been done for years. Some people think Spielman was the first guy to pull it off. Perhaps not all, but most of us would be smart enough to let other teams know that they have to outdo an offer they already have on the table whether that that claim was genuine or false. You just have to be knowledgeable enough to make a deal with a team who is looking at a different player than you are. That isn't rocket science either.

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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    The extension is what he wanted during his frustration at camp & throughout the year. That's already been documented. Do I think the game day issues are factoring into it now. Absolutely they are adding to the frustration. That's documented to. We had open receivers that weren't getting thrown to. I think though, had he had his contract extension taken care of prior to the season, his frustration would have been more sub-dued. Instead they are continuing to pile on.


    As far as the draft, yes it was a good move to claim there was interest in the pick. I disagree with others who claim that it was sheer genius like Marrdro does. IMO. It's Draft Day 101. All teams/GM's are going to claim there's already interest in their pick to drive the value up.

    It's nothing new & has been done for years. Some people think Spielman was the first guy to pull it off. Perhaps not all, but most of us would be smart enough to let other teams know that they have to outdo an offer they already have on the table whether that that claim was genuine or false. You just have to be knowledgeable enough to make a deal with a team who is looking at a different player than you are. That isn't rocket science either.
    You act like it happens all the time, but do you know of any other time that a team has moved down one spot in the draft? I tried looking it up but I couldn't find any. Either it never happens or my Google skills are off today.

    Speaking of trades, let's also remember that we have another 4th rounder in the upcoming draft from Detroit. Because we got an extra 5th rounder from Cleveland in that first round trade, we traded our 2012 5th and 7th round picks to Detroit for their 2012 7th round and 2013 4th round pick. Oh yeah, and that extra 7th rounder? We traded it to Tennessee for their 2013 6th round pick.

    So let's recap - what exactly did the Vikings get out of that ONE POSITION trade with Cleveland?
    The Vikings gave the #3 overall draft pick to Cleveland.
    In return Cleveland gave the Vikings the #4 overall pick, their 4th round pick (#118 overall), their 5th round pick (#139 overall), and their 7th round pick (#211 overall)

    With the picks from that trade the Vikings:
    1) Selected Kalil, the player they were going for anyway
    2) Because we now had 2 4th rounders, we were able to trade our 4th rounder (#117 overall) and our 2nd rounder (#36 overall) to Baltimore for their 1st round pick (#29 overall) and select Harrison Smith
    3) We selected Wright with the 4th rounder we got from Cleveland
    4) Because we had an extra 5th rounder, we were able to make the afore mentioned trade with Detroit to acquire an extra 4th this year
    5) We selected Blanton with Cleveland's 5th rounder
    6) We traded our 7th rounder to Tennessee to get an extra 6th rounder this year

    Now you can argue that 1 and either 2 or 3 could have happened regardless of the trade. But we would not have been able to get Kalil, Smith AND Wright if it wasn't for the trade. Not to mention the two extra picks this year.

    And all of this by moving down ONE SPOT to allow Cleveland to select a player we would not have selected anyway.

    Is it genius? Probably not. But it was a pretty damn good piece of draft day strategy, and trying to downplay it or trivialize it by saying that "It's nothing new & has been done for years" or that "most of us would be smart enough" to do it is more than a little far fetched. It WAS something new, and I highly doubt any of us could have pulled it off.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    It's Draft Day 101. All teams/GM's are going to claim there's already interest in their pick to drive the value up.
    I thought it was draft day 101have your pick ready to go in on time incase the trade falls through or the team ahead of you is delayed 2002 or 2003

    And by botched the selections, I don't mean the players they ultimately picked, but HOW those picks came to be. It was a combination of buffoonery, jackassery, and ridiculousness that just epitomized the off the field escapades of the Mike Tice Vikings.
    LINK

    In 2002, Dallas was picking 6th, Minnesota 7th, and Kansas City 8th. Dallas knew Minnesota wanted a defensive tackle, Ryan Sims, and were working a trade with Kansas City to move back two spots, because KC wanted to jump ahead of Minnesota and take Sims. While they were working out the trade details, the clock expired, but Minnesota couldn't get to the podium in time to grab Sims. The trade went through, Kansas City nabbed SIms, and the Vikings selected Bryant McKinnie...who held out until November of that year
    Oh, 2003 draft. Yeah...
    That year, it was the Vikings who were picking 7th, and they were on the clock. They were working the phones, and thought they had a deal with Baltimore, but the trade was not turned in on time, and time expired on the Vikings. As ESPN commentator Chris Berman...and all of Vikings nation...were literally flipping out that the Vikings had indeed passed, Jacksonville and Carolina, the two teams immediately after the Vikings, did what the Vikings didn't do in 2002: they rushed to the podium, pick in hand, and selected their guy.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikinggreg View Post
    I thought it was draft day 101have your pick ready to go in on time incase the trade falls through or the team ahead of you is delayed 2002 or 2003



    LINK

    And in one of those years another team stung us along on a deal (Cleveland or Baltimore) I believe, then pulled out at the last second & the time expired on us as well. More trickery by another team. Yet it has no bearing on this years trade other than show GM's use deceit to screw other teams over as well.

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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    You act like it happens all the time, but do you know of any other time that a team has moved down one spot in the draft? I tried looking it up but I couldn't find any. Either it never happens or my Google skills are off today.

    Speaking of trades, let's also remember that we have another 4th rounder in the upcoming draft from Detroit. Because we got an extra 5th rounder from Cleveland in that first round trade, we traded our 2012 5th and 7th round picks to Detroit for their 2012 7th round and 2013 4th round pick. Oh yeah, and that extra 7th rounder? We traded it to Tennessee for their 2013 6th round pick.

    So let's recap - what exactly did the Vikings get out of that ONE POSITION trade with Cleveland?
    The Vikings gave the #3 overall draft pick to Cleveland.
    In return Cleveland gave the Vikings the #4 overall pick, their 4th round pick (#118 overall), their 5th round pick (#139 overall), and their 7th round pick (#211 overall)

    With the picks from that trade the Vikings:
    1) Selected Kalil, the player they were going for anyway
    2) Because we now had 2 4th rounders, we were able to trade our 4th rounder (#117 overall) and our 2nd rounder (#36 overall) to Baltimore for their 1st round pick (#29 overall) and select Harrison Smith
    3) We selected Wright with the 4th rounder we got from Cleveland
    4) Because we had an extra 5th rounder, we were able to make the afore mentioned trade with Detroit to acquire an extra 4th this year
    5) We selected Blanton with Cleveland's 5th rounder
    6) We traded our 7th rounder to Tennessee to get an extra 6th rounder this year

    Now you can argue that 1 and either 2 or 3 could have happened regardless of the trade. But we would not have been able to get Kalil, Smith AND Wright if it wasn't for the trade. Not to mention the two extra picks this year.

    And all of this by moving down ONE SPOT to allow Cleveland to select a player we would not have selected anyway.

    Is it genius? Probably not. But it was a pretty damn good piece of draft day strategy, and trying to downplay it or trivialize it by saying that "It's nothing new & has been done for years" or that "most of us would be smart enough" to do it is more than a little far fetched. It WAS something new, and I highly doubt any of us could have pulled it off.
    It doesn't have to be simply one spot. I'm talking about teams inflating the value of their pick by falsely claiming there's already interest & offers on it to get the interested party to up the ante.

    Getting multiple picks in return for a draft pick happens all the time. Google that & see how often that's happened. It was a good trade, but not genius like some want to believe.

    It's not far fetched to believe many of us here would try to up another teams offer by falsely stating or genuinely stating we have offer X on the table & were looking for Y. If you want to believe otherwise & think most of us would say, "We don't have any offers yet, what are you willing to give?", that's your opinion. I think otherwise.

    Furthermore, to speculate that the only reason we traded our 2nd & 4th rounder to move up into the 1st was because we had that additional 4th rounder is just that...speculation. You or I have no clue as to what trades would have transpired had the initial trade not been made. I would have hoped Spielman would tried to move up regardless if there was a player there they wanted, like Smith for example.

    If you would have been content for the Vikings to stand pat with their picks & not trade any of them if the initial trade didn't happen and wait to see who falls in their lap, rather than try to get players they were targeting, that's your prerogative as well.

    Again, for those of you who think it was sheer genius or the first time trickery was used to get more value out of the pick & Spielman is a great GM because of it, you have the right to that opinion. I happen to believe any GM's holding that pick would have inflated the value of it by stating there were offers on it to try & get the most out of Cleveland for that pick.
    Last edited by singersp; 12-27-2012 at 06:16 AM.

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  6. #46
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    2012 NFL draft: Minnesota Vikings push all the right buttons on Day 1 - ESPN
    By John Clayton | ESPN.com
    1. Minnesota Vikings: Vikings general manager Rick Spielman proved to be the shrewdest among the wheelers and dealers. He was able to get three additional picks from the Cleveland Browns and still get the player the Vikings wanted -- left tackle Matt Kalil. The process started by getting the word out that they wanted to draft either Kalil or cornerback Morris Claiborne. The idea was to convince the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, who started with the No. 5 pick, that they might be left with Claiborne if the Vikings selected Kalil and the Browns selected running back Trent Richardson. He also got word out that other teams were interested in picking No. 3. Unlike the Bucs, the Browns knew the Vikings wouldn't take Richardson; they have Adrian Peterson on the roster. Although the Vikings didn't get a second- or third-rounder, the acquisition of a fourth-, fifth- and seventh-round pick gave them even more flexibility in this draft. That upped their draft total to 13 picks. As the round developed, the Vikings were able to move back into the first round in a deal with the Baltimore Ravens to get safety Harrison Smith. The Vikings came out with Kalil and Smith, and have 10 more choices over the final two days of the draft. It doesn't get much better than that.
    Grades: 2012 NFL Draft Round 1 - NFL - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com
    By Pete Prisco | Senior NFL Columnist
    Great move by Vikings. They get the best left tackle, one of the cleanest players in the draft, and get extra picks to trade down. Nice move, Minny. Grade: A+
    Czar's NFL Draft grades per team - NFL News | FOX Sports on MSN
    John Czarnecki
    General manager Rick Spielman did an impressive job getting extra picks for his top spot and still ended up with tackle Matt Kalil. The USC lineman fills a huge need at left tackle because Christian Ponder was pummeled last season. ... They moved back into the bottom of the first round to land Notre Dame safety Harrison Smith, considered by many as the second-best safety behind Alabama's Mark Barron. ...
    Yeah, Spielman didn't really do much. I mean it isn't like he was being praised by anyone else, so it makes sense that people here would brush off the draft as "no brainer" and say he only did what the average fan here would have done...

    OR... and I might just be reaching here... OR we could get over any self inflated belief that we somehow have the expertise or knowledge to handle a high pressure situation like the NFL draft and would be able make as good of a trade as Spielman just because we are fans and think we know how it works. I actually think that the pressure of directly affecting a billion dollar industry based on a singular choice might make the decisions to play with draft picks and move around in the draft a bit more than "NFL Draft 101." But maybe that is just my opinion, given that I have experience making decisions in extremely high pressure situations and I understand how taxing it can be.

    nah. Obviously the average fan on PP.O could have done just as well. That isn't ridiculous at all.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    I agree that 2011 wasn't terrible. However, it will get a D+ from me because of the drafting of Ponder at spot 12. I don't care who is flying off the board. I don't care if there is a run on players, you stick by your board. Isn't that Rick's saying?

    Rudolph in 2nd = A
    Ballard in 4th = B
    Raymond in 6th = A because of value
    Reed = B
    I can live with that, especially were Ponder was taken, Problem is, what would have been left for us?

    Lets go on the premise that the staff actually functions like a real staff and they have a board for not only that draft, but for the draft in 2012 and 2013 and have scouted out the players that will be available in both 2012 and 2013.

    Lets then dig down into that board and look at the QB position. Do they slide on a QB in the first and gamble that one of the teams below us would also slide on him as well as Dalton and we would be able to get one of them or do they gamble and hope that they pick high in the hopes of landing Luck (remember RGIII wasn't RGIII going into that draft) or even wait until the 2013 draft and see if any of those cats will pan out, which they are now looking pretty slim on.

    I think I would have gambled on the kid as well and would have taken were they did. Of course I have 20/20 hindsight and know now that if we wouldn't have taken him we still be bringing in crappy old used up has beens and would be 2 years behind in a QB's development.

    Nope, lets give the kid some weapons at WR and then see what he can do.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    I can live with that, especially were Ponder was taken, Problem is, what would have been left for us?
    My belief is that the QB position is one that you strive to get the best you can. You don't casually shop for one. You target a guy that you like and go get him. You don't take runner ups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    Lets go on the premise that the staff actually functions like a real staff and they have a board for not only that draft, but for the draft in 2012 and 2013 and have scouted out the players that will be available in both 2012 and 2013.

    Lets then dig down into that board and look at the QB position. Do they slide on a QB in the first and gamble that one of the teams below us would also slide on him as well as Dalton and we would be able to get one of them or do they gamble and hope that they pick high in the hopes of landing Luck (remember RGIII wasn't RGIII going into that draft) or even wait until the 2013 draft and see if any of those cats will pan out, which they are now looking pretty slim on.
    My belief is that a run on QBs had them either
    1) Miss the guy they wanted or 2) Forced them to select him earlier.
    Ponder was the 4th QB taken in that draft in the first 15th picks. No position in any draft has 4 first rounders taken within the first 15 picks. I rather stick to my board and pass on a guy that i had rated as option 2 at a position. I believe that at QB, you better be in love with the player before you select him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    I think I would have gambled on the kid as well and would have taken were they did. Of course I have 20/20 hindsight and know now that if we wouldn't have taken him we still be bringing in crappy old used up has beens and would be 2 years behind in a QB's development.
    I say you pass on him in 2011 at 12. If he is there in the 2nd, cool and select one of the QBs available in 2012. I think teams that panic and chose before of a run on the poition, ends up on the losing end. You never buy stocks when everyone is buying them. You buy when everyone is selling (of course when you expect it to go back up)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    Nope, lets give the kid some weapons at WR and then see what he can do.
    Are they all gonna run 5 yard routes?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    My belief is that the QB position is one that you strive to get the best you can. You don't casually shop for one. You target a guy that you like and go get him. You don't take runner ups.
    Sound wisdom. Maybe they did just that?

    My belief is that a run on QBs had them either
    1) Miss the guy they wanted or 2) Forced them to select him earlier.
    Ponder was the 4th QB taken in that draft in the first 15th picks. No position in any draft has 4 first rounders taken within the first 15 picks. I rather stick to my board and pass on a guy that i had rated as option 2 at a position. I believe that at QB, you better be in love with the player before you select him.
    I agree, but you don't go into the draft liking one guy at a position. You go into it liking 3 or 4 guys.

    I say you pass on him in 2011 at 12. If he is there in the 2nd, cool and select one of the QBs available in 2012. I think teams that panic and chose before of a run on the poition, ends up on the losing end. You never buy stocks when everyone is buying them. You buy when everyone is selling (of course when you expect it to go back up)
    OK, which one would you take in 2012 and what, by the way, do you do at QB in 2011? Webb?


    Are they all gonna run 5 yard routes?
    LOL, well played. Well played indeed.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    2012 NFL draft: Minnesota Vikings push all the right buttons on Day 1 - ESPN
    By John Clayton | ESPN.com


    Grades: 2012 NFL Draft Round 1 - NFL - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com
    By Pete Prisco | Senior NFL Columnist


    Czar's NFL Draft grades per team - NFL News | FOX Sports on MSN
    John Czarnecki


    Yeah, Spielman didn't really do much. I mean it isn't like he was being praised by anyone else, so it makes sense that people here would brush off the draft as "no brainer" and say he only did what the average fan here would have done...

    OR... and I might just be reaching here... OR we could get over any self inflated belief that we somehow have the expertise or knowledge to handle a high pressure situation like the NFL draft and would be able make as good of a trade as Spielman just because we are fans and think we know how it works. I actually think that the pressure of directly affecting a billion dollar industry based on a singular choice might make the decisions to play with draft picks and move around in the draft a bit more than "NFL Draft 101." But maybe that is just my opinion, given that I have experience making decisions in extremely high pressure situations and I understand how taxing it can be.

    nah. Obviously the average fan on PP.O could have done just as well. That isn't ridiculous at all.
    Were not talking about "pressures behind the scenes", the inner working of a billion dollar industry or the fact that you feel you are much better at decision making than anyone else here because you've had experience making decisions in an extremely high pressure situation that was non-football related.

    Were talking about a couple of simple things here. There's no need to go into the bowels of the NFL.

    Pretty simple things we're talking about here.

    You have the number 3 pick in the draft. You desperately need a top LT. There's 1 available that is guaranteed to be there at number 3 & chances are great he'll still be there at 4 or 5 based on the needs of the other 2 teams with a WR & RB sitting there also.

    1. Everyone knows you need a LT first and foremost, especially after just signing a WR to compliment Harvin, but you decide to let it be publicly known that you might not take Kalil in the draft.
    A. Was that a genius move that can only be made by someone with the expertise or knowledge to handle a high pressure decision like that?
    B. How many GM's do you think it fooled?
    C. How many fans do you think it fooled?
    d. Do you think that only a few of us fans would have had the notion to try & throw others off track by suggesting we might not take our primary target?

    2. You have the number 3 pick & see the opportunity to move down a few spots & still get your man or if the price is right, move out of the top 10 altogether.
    A. Do you exaggerate or falsify what offers you have to try & drive the value of your pick up to get the most picks & value for trading your pick or do you simply listen to offers & then choose the best one?
    B. On a scale of 1 to 10, how much genius does it take to inflate or falsify offers on your pick?
    C. On a scale of 1 to 10, how high is the pressure before one makes the decision to inflate or falsify offers on your pick?
    D. Do you really believe people here on PP.O are too stupid or lack the expertise that they wouldn't exaggerate of falsify offers if they were the ones who had an opportunity to do so? Do you think they couldn't do so because they'd crack under pressure & only people such as yourself who's had experience making those high pressure decisions could do so?
    E. How many people here do you think would exaggerate of falsify offers if they were the ones who had an opportunity to do so? None? Some? Half? Most? All?

    I happen to believe most of us here, if not all would inflate the offers we had for the pick to get the best offer out it. I don't think it takes a genius to inflate the value and I don't think it's ridiculous to think my fellow PP.Oers wouldn't do it.

    Spielman with in the right spot to make a deal & got the best bang for his buck in the deal. It was a damn good move, but damn near all GM's put in that same spot would try & do the same. I don't think it was sheer genius.

    Trade or not, selecting Kalil was IMO, a "no brainer" based on need at the moment..

    The trade to move up & snatch Harrison Smith was a good move too, but not genius, nor do I believe the only reason he was able to be dealt for was because of the first trade. Did you forget how many picks, including 4th rounders we had before the draft ever started?

    We had 3 4th round picks before the draft even started.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

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