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  1. #101
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    Re: 2011 Vikings Coaching Staff: Ideas Options & Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1088523
    Craig Johnson (QB) - ........ Webb next?
    Or Young. Could be he is being brougth in to coach Young after the Vikes snatch him up.

    I for one am pretty skeptical about this staff. Looks like alot of guys (especially our O-coord) who haven't done anything in this league other than fail.
    Well, you were eternally optimistic about the last staff and look how that one ended up lmao.

    If your hunches hold true we will probably win the SB next season.

  2. #102
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    Re: 2011 Vikings Coaching Staff: Ideas Options & Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1087511
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1087423
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087422
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1087420
    Quote Originally Posted by "mountainviking" #1087417
    Childress tried to run alot of his scheme inbetween the lines...the OL was on some sort of zone/man scheme, he brought in a tough running style to go with his WCO, dink and dunk passing game. Wasn't the defense even playing a zone/man coverage combo at some point too?

    But, while balance is good, he lost sight of reality...short passing zones are just as clogged by the zone blitz as the running game is. If you want to back off the D and open up the running game, you need deep passes.

    ON a fundamental level, much of his offensive theory was just plain wrong. I so hope we have a new offensive scheme next season!!!
    Here is my point with how there are unproven issues in which Childress was blamed. I'm not here to stick up for Childress or even say you are wrong in what you say. There is no need to at this point. However, how was his offensive theory just plain wrong? IMO that is just a biased opinion and not proven fact.

    Let's look at facts. The Viking offense was #12 out of 32 teams even with the likes of TJ and GF at QB in 2008. In 2009 they were in the top 5 with very good QB play. In 2010, I can agree when you look at the dismal offensive output. If you want to judge by offensive scheme alone in 2008 then #12 would have to favor Childress. It sure as hell wasn't the QB. 2009 was more of the QB but I have to admit the offensive scheme was pretty good especially when you look at the playoff games against Dallas and NO. 2010, not so much.
    I think when you look at the total Offensive output, it looks a lot different than when you are watching individual games unfold.

    For example, based upon our 2008 season I NEVER would have guessed that we were the 12th highest scoring offense in the NFL that season. Probably because we were 17th in total yards.

    But there were 5 games that season where we scored 30 or more points.

    Trouble is, there were 9 games where we scored 20 or fewer points. Our 23.7 PPG put us at 12th overall...but the 20th overall team, the Steelers, were at 21.7 PPG. Not a huge difference.

    So, scoring is a piece of the puzzle, but not the whole puzzle.

    In '08, our 3rd down percentage was 19th overall (39%).
    We were 17th overall in Penalty yards, but 11th in time of possession.

    Sadly, we were also 24th in +/- with a -6 overall.

    So, our '08 team, despite winning the NFCN, was NOT a very good team. We were strictly middle of the pack on Offense.

    Truth is, we won the NFCN because Chicago and Green Bay fell apart. As shakey as we were, we were the most stable at that time.

    In '09, the Offense was sparked. Our PPG went up to 5th overall (29.4), our 3rd down percentage increased to 5th overall (45%), and our turnover ratio went to +6, good enough for 9th overall.

    In short, we were a much more dynamic team. We scored more because things went right a whole lot more, and we didn't give the ball away as much.

    Now when we start talking about credit and blame, it gets sticky. A lot of people deserve some of both, and no one should shoulder all of either.

    Childress put the offense in play, but he could never make it work until Favre showed up. That's a fact. Problem is, when the line fell apart and Favre got hurt, the Offense came crumbling down too. Despite certain people's assertions that the Offense could "carry a QB", we clearly saw that THAT was not true at all. That particular Offense needed an Elite QB to make it work...and we destroyed ours.

    So, Childress gets some credit, but he also shoulders the blame for not having the right people in the mix to sustain success. The line and the receiver corps completely folded in '10, and it took the QB with them.

    After that, it's all academic.

    Caine
    Good post Caine and there's not a whole lot there I could argue with. I'm not big on a lot of statistics but I also know they do tell at least part of the story. A year's worth of statistics tell a lot about a TEAM. Not so much individually because that is more of a long term value.

    I agree you can't take a ranking and say anything one way or the other most of the time. 12th offense doesn't say a whole lot. The one thing that also has to be considered is how much the defense did. Offense takes all the credit for points scored but people don't uderstand or clearly look at the entire story.

    For example people look at the 2009 Saints as the best offense in football. Why? Because the team scored the most points. However, when you look at the entire picture, the Viking OFFENSE scored the exact same amount of points as the Saint OFFENSE. The difference was the defenses. The Vikings had 1 TD and the Saints had about 9. In addition the Saints defense had more turnovers giving the Saints a short field. The Vikings on the other hand didn't have a lot of that.

    Therefore, your (Caine's) points are well taken and I totally agree. My point in my previous post is that people tended to blame Childress for things well beyond his control. It was almost like Bryant McKinnie's big fat ass would blow a fart and people would blame Childress for the stench.
    You also have to remember that the points scored are a factor of more than just offensive output. They also account for Special Teams points and defensive scores.

    Look at it this way- in 2006 the defense scored 30 points. In 2007 they scored 48 points. In 2008 they scored 24, in 2009 that number plunged to 8 and this year we scored 12.

    So for example last year we had the number 2 offense and the worst scoring defense that the team has had in recent memory which really attests to what the offense CAN do if we have the right QB and if he stays healthy.

    In 2007 the defense scored an impressive 40418 points which is the best I remember from them in a very long time. That productivity mad our offense look much better than it actually was.

    Back to your point about the blame leveled at Childress I will just say that the owner gave him the leverage and resources needed to win the Vikings their first Super Bowl. IMHO had he chosen wiser early in his tenure at the QB position we could have been in a position to win the SB in both 2007 and 2008 as well as last year and in the end we came up short. Last year we had a HOF QB, the best RB in the league who was a rookie of the year, a WR who as a 1st round pick and rookie of the year. Two OL who have something like 65 million in contract pay, A highly paid FA WR, a highly paid FA TE and one of the best kickers in the league. I am not sure how many teams in the league can say that but with all of that talent one would expect that we should be at the top of the league in offense.
    Good stuff all around, only comment would be towards the "Leverage and Resources" discussion point by Purp.

    To bad he didn't give him the "time" to go along with those two factors.

    Coaches that got it done sooner that the Chiller had time either inherited a SB caliber team or inherited a team with a SB caliber QB. Unfortunately the Chiller and company were never provided that piece to the puzzle and the team was still being put together and still came one play away from getting to the big dance.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #103
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    Re: 2011 Vikings Coaching Staff: Ideas Options & Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1088660
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1087511
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1087423
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1087422
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1087420
    Quote Originally Posted by "mountainviking" #1087417
    Childress tried to run alot of his scheme inbetween the lines...the OL was on some sort of zone/man scheme, he brought in a tough running style to go with his WCO, dink and dunk passing game. Wasn't the defense even playing a zone/man coverage combo at some point too?

    But, while balance is good, he lost sight of reality...short passing zones are just as clogged by the zone blitz as the running game is. If you want to back off the D and open up the running game, you need deep passes.

    ON a fundamental level, much of his offensive theory was just plain wrong. I so hope we have a new offensive scheme next season!!!
    Here is my point with how there are unproven issues in which Childress was blamed. I'm not here to stick up for Childress or even say you are wrong in what you say. There is no need to at this point. However, how was his offensive theory just plain wrong? IMO that is just a biased opinion and not proven fact.

    Let's look at facts. The Viking offense was #12 out of 32 teams even with the likes of TJ and GF at QB in 2008. In 2009 they were in the top 5 with very good QB play. In 2010, I can agree when you look at the dismal offensive output. If you want to judge by offensive scheme alone in 2008 then #12 would have to favor Childress. It sure as hell wasn't the QB. 2009 was more of the QB but I have to admit the offensive scheme was pretty good especially when you look at the playoff games against Dallas and NO. 2010, not so much.
    I think when you look at the total Offensive output, it looks a lot different than when you are watching individual games unfold.

    For example, based upon our 2008 season I NEVER would have guessed that we were the 12th highest scoring offense in the NFL that season. Probably because we were 17th in total yards.

    But there were 5 games that season where we scored 30 or more points.

    Trouble is, there were 9 games where we scored 20 or fewer points. Our 23.7 PPG put us at 12th overall...but the 20th overall team, the Steelers, were at 21.7 PPG. Not a huge difference.

    So, scoring is a piece of the puzzle, but not the whole puzzle.

    In '08, our 3rd down percentage was 19th overall (39%).
    We were 17th overall in Penalty yards, but 11th in time of possession.

    Sadly, we were also 24th in +/- with a -6 overall.

    So, our '08 team, despite winning the NFCN, was NOT a very good team. We were strictly middle of the pack on Offense.

    Truth is, we won the NFCN because Chicago and Green Bay fell apart. As shakey as we were, we were the most stable at that time.

    In '09, the Offense was sparked. Our PPG went up to 5th overall (29.4), our 3rd down percentage increased to 5th overall (45%), and our turnover ratio went to +6, good enough for 9th overall.

    In short, we were a much more dynamic team. We scored more because things went right a whole lot more, and we didn't give the ball away as much.

    Now when we start talking about credit and blame, it gets sticky. A lot of people deserve some of both, and no one should shoulder all of either.

    Childress put the offense in play, but he could never make it work until Favre showed up. That's a fact. Problem is, when the line fell apart and Favre got hurt, the Offense came crumbling down too. Despite certain people's assertions that the Offense could "carry a QB", we clearly saw that THAT was not true at all. That particular Offense needed an Elite QB to make it work...and we destroyed ours.

    So, Childress gets some credit, but he also shoulders the blame for not having the right people in the mix to sustain success. The line and the receiver corps completely folded in '10, and it took the QB with them.

    After that, it's all academic.

    Caine
    Good post Caine and there's not a whole lot there I could argue with. I'm not big on a lot of statistics but I also know they do tell at least part of the story. A year's worth of statistics tell a lot about a TEAM. Not so much individually because that is more of a long term value.

    I agree you can't take a ranking and say anything one way or the other most of the time. 12th offense doesn't say a whole lot. The one thing that also has to be considered is how much the defense did. Offense takes all the credit for points scored but people don't uderstand or clearly look at the entire story.

    For example people look at the 2009 Saints as the best offense in football. Why? Because the team scored the most points. However, when you look at the entire picture, the Viking OFFENSE scored the exact same amount of points as the Saint OFFENSE. The difference was the defenses. The Vikings had 1 TD and the Saints had about 9. In addition the Saints defense had more turnovers giving the Saints a short field. The Vikings on the other hand didn't have a lot of that.

    Therefore, your (Caine's) points are well taken and I totally agree. My point in my previous post is that people tended to blame Childress for things well beyond his control. It was almost like Bryant McKinnie's big fat ass would blow a fart and people would blame Childress for the stench.
    You also have to remember that the points scored are a factor of more than just offensive output. They also account for Special Teams points and defensive scores.

    Look at it this way- in 2006 the defense scored 30 points. In 2007 they scored 48 points. In 2008 they scored 24, in 2009 that number plunged to 8 and this year we scored 12.

    So for example last year we had the number 2 offense and the worst scoring defense that the team has had in recent memory which really attests to what the offense CAN do if we have the right QB and if he stays healthy.

    In 2007 the defense scored an impressive 40418 points which is the best I remember from them in a very long time. That productivity mad our offense look much better than it actually was.

    Back to your point about the blame leveled at Childress I will just say that the owner gave him the leverage and resources needed to win the Vikings their first Super Bowl. IMHO had he chosen wiser early in his tenure at the QB position we could have been in a position to win the SB in both 2007 and 2008 as well as last year and in the end we came up short. Last year we had a HOF QB, the best RB in the league who was a rookie of the year, a WR who as a 1st round pick and rookie of the year. Two OL who have something like 65 million in contract pay, A highly paid FA WR, a highly paid FA TE and one of the best kickers in the league. I am not sure how many teams in the league can say that but with all of that talent one would expect that we should be at the top of the league in offense.
    Good stuff all around, only comment would be towards the "Leverage and Resources" discussion point by Purp.

    To bad he didn't give him the "time" to go along with those two factors.

    Coaches that got it done sooner that the Chiller had time either inherited a SB caliber team or inherited a team with a SB caliber QB. Unfortunately the Chiller and company were never provided that piece to the puzzle and the team was still being put together and still came one play away from getting to the big dance.
    But he did have the time and the opportunities my friend. and he did have the combined talent and the ability to get more if needed.He just didnt put it all together like other coaches did.

  4. #104
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: 2011 Vikings Coaching Staff: Ideas Options & Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1088533
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1088523
    Craig Johnson (QB) - ........ Webb next?
    Or Young. Could be he is being brougth in to coach Young after the Vikes snatch him up.

    I for one am pretty skeptical about this staff. Looks like alot of guys (especially our O-coord) who haven't done anything in this league other than fail.
    Well, you were eternally optimistic about the last staff and look how that one ended up lmao.

    If your hunches hold true we will probably win the SB next season.
    I didn't get on the Chiller bandwagon right away my friend. Same with this staff. Until I see them in action I will be a bit hesitant.

    Again, the defense got better when he left and he only got a 3 year contract.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  5. #105
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    Re: 2011 Vikings Coaching Staff: Ideas Options & Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1088920
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1088533
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1088523
    Craig Johnson (QB) - ........ Webb next?
    Or Young. Could be he is being brougth in to coach Young after the Vikes snatch him up.

    I for one am pretty skeptical about this staff. Looks like alot of guys (especially our O-coord) who haven't done anything in this league other than fail.
    Well, you were eternally optimistic about the last staff and look how that one ended up lmao.

    If your hunches hold true we will probably win the SB next season.
    I didn't get on the Chiller bandwagon right away my friend. Same with this staff. Until I see them in action I will be a bit hesitant.

    Again, the defense got better when he left and he only got a 3 year contract.
    I am going to jump on the Frazier bandwagon. I have a lot of hope for him. I can understand the three year contract. He hasn't done anything yet. If he looks promising, he will get an extension. Unless they are gunshy after the chillidelphia experiment.
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  6. #106
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: 2011 Vikings Coaching Staff: Ideas Options & Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "marshallvike" #1088921
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1088920
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1088533
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1088523
    Craig Johnson (QB) - ........ Webb next?
    Or Young. Could be he is being brougth in to coach Young after the Vikes snatch him up.

    I for one am pretty skeptical about this staff. Looks like alot of guys (especially our O-coord) who haven't done anything in this league other than fail.
    Well, you were eternally optimistic about the last staff and look how that one ended up lmao.

    If your hunches hold true we will probably win the SB next season.
    I didn't get on the Chiller bandwagon right away my friend. Same with this staff. Until I see them in action I will be a bit hesitant.

    Again, the defense got better when he left and he only got a 3 year contract.
    I am going to jump on the Frazier bandwagon. I have a lot of hope for him. I can understand the three year contract. He hasn't done anything yet. If he looks promising, he will get an extension. Unless they are gunshy after the chillidelphia experiment.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm behind him all the way. I'm just not ready to hand him the devotion some on here are.

    Again, he has interviewed for numerous jobs and didn't get selected and our defense definately played better without him in charge of it.

    On a side note, I can see your point on the 3 year contract but I see it as a out for when the Ownership group has thier revenue issues figured out.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  7. #107
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: 2011 Vikings Coaching Staff: Ideas Options & Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "ndnorseman" #1088528
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1088523
    Craig Johnson (QB) - ........ Webb next?
    Or Young. Could be he is being brougth in to coach Young after the Vikes snatch him up.

    I for one am pretty skeptical about this staff. Looks like alot of guys (especially our O-coord) who haven't done anything in this league other than fail.

    Or, Marrdro, it could be just the right mix to finally make the talent on our team reach it's full potential. Let's have some Faith, my friend.
    I'm with you on that discussion point my friend especially if the roster changes the way I think it will this year.

    Gonna be alot of guys trying to reach thier full potential in the league. One thing that will be fun about it though is I will get to stick up for guys like Griff again.

    I remember when everyone on here absolutely hated the kid. The only thing he did was go out and play his ass off even though he wasn't ready. Again, I think we are gonna see alot of that the next couple of years (again).
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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