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  1. #21
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    Re: 10 Vikings with the Most to Prove in 2011

    Actually though, I'm forgetting the most obvious choice of player with the most to prove... Christian Ponder.

    Time to prove the doubters that he deserved to be picked #12, and time to prove that he doesn't need a Vet to start for a year. If he can do that I'll be ecstatic.

  2. #22
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    Re: 10 Vikings with the Most to Prove in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1100032
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1100031
    Quote Originally Posted by "marshallvike" #1100027
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1100023
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1100018
    Meh, don't agree with that. 2nd year mid-round player IMO doesn't have too much to prove at this point. He was a backup, and not even a primary backup. He gets another year IMO with more reps before people should start calling him out.

    If I were to come up with a list, it would be:

    10. Jaymar Johnson
    9. Jasper Brinkley
    8. Madieu Williams
    7. Asher Allen
    6. John Sullivan
    5. Brian Robison
    4. Phil Loadholt
    3. Bernard Berrian
    2. Leslie Fraizer
    1. Zygi Wilf
    So you think players like Jasper, Asher, Sully and Load haven't atleast played up to their expected progression?

    I'll give you JJ and M-will, but in all essence, JJ has been fighting an uphill battle with respect to a stacked position so I really don't lable him as a "Most to Prove" and M-will is a scheme player that has been playing in a scheme that has other issues that directly reflect on his play as well.

    Jasper stepped in and played better than any would have expected when EJ went down.

    Asher has done almost as good and I expect that this year will be the year everyone recognizes that progression.

    Sully hasn't done as bad as most on here would contend. Truth of the matter is his first year starting he graded out as well as the guy he replaced. I do worry about him and all the extra weight he seems to need to carry.

    Rob doesn't need to do anything other than what he has been doing. Now if he gets shoved into the starter role, I suspect that most will turn on him for poor play, when in fact he is being asked to do something he doesn't have the skillset to do.

    Load....I put him in the catagory of Asher. I for one, don't like it when we have to start rooks. Almost as much as I don't like fans who hack on the kid cause he is put in a situation he probably isn't ready to be in.

    BB. He is one I'm not sure on. Truth of the matter is, I think his numbers went down cause he was asked to play inside. Thats kindof like asking Randy Moss to run crossing routes in a 3 tree. Nothing good will come of it. Mix that in with the assumption that we are going to start a rookie QB and I just don't see the need for the "Deep threat" (8 & 9 route trees) that he is in the scheme to do.
    BB's hands have been injured since he came into the league.

    It's really not that he doesn't have the ability, he just seems to lose focus on occasion during the game. Unfortunately, he was the best available reciever in a free agent year that we desparately needed a deep threat.
    Some players do well catching the ball in traffic (i.e. Rice/Harvin) and some don't. BB is one of those guys I think struggles when you put him into the 4, 5, 6 and 7 route trees because of the congestion that is associated with those routes.

    Unless of course you have someone clearing them out for him. He did have some success cathing the short stuff at times, but in those instances he was wide open.
    He also seemed to drop a fair share of balls while wide open. Even in traffic, he'd drop or tip balls before a defender touched him.

    it's one thing if youc an't hang on because you're getting hit or a guy is all over you, but I think it's just in his head.
    He was the same way in Chicago before we got him. Sometimes make a big play for huge yardage, sometimes drop an easy one set right on him in flight. The Bears weren't too upset about losing him.
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  3. #23
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    Re: 10 Vikings with the Most to Prove in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1100028
    It's not who has or has not played up to expectations, it's who's going to play to their expectations next year. Jasper for example has played pretty well, but is really still a liability in pass coverage. If he's potentially getting a shot to start full-time next season in Lebers place(Don't think he should personally), is he ready? We'll see I guess.
    I hear ya, however, as I pointed out, they progressed pretty well why would one not think they would continue to progress?

    Stacked position? You call (Hurt)Rice, Harvin, Berrian, Lewis, and even Baskett stacked? He should be able to beat out Lewis and Baskett if he's really as talented as some reports we've been hearing. Unfortunately he got hurt last season, but h e's like Allison. We just need to see some performance, otherwise he'll see the door.
    I think you've missed some things that held him back like injuries were he couldn't have beaten out the likes of Lewis.

    If healthy, I expect JJ will have a good year. If he is battling injuries again, I suspect the team will move on.

    Asher looked average at best, and absolutely awful at worst. He has not done what I expect from a (2nd?) round pick 3 seasons in. He needs to step it up. I'll be pleasantly surprised if he turns out like Griffin, as you might remember me harping on him about this time in his career.
    LOL, I do remember your impatience with Griff. Rings almost exactly with what your saying about Asher. Just like I kept telling everyone (there were a couple of stuck with Griff) that Griff was coming around. Asher played pretty damn good last year, all things considered.

    As well as the guy he replaced? You're one of a handful of people who believe that. The others being Sullivan's immediate family. He quite frankly is NOT strong enough to handle some bigger DT/NTs. He gets pushed around, and has not really looked GOOD at any point in his career. He's looked acceptable at times, but never GOOD.
    The handfull actually refer back to 2009 were he actually faced some pretty damn good NT's playing in 3-4 defenses.

    Besides, in the ZB scheme they ran, the C isn't supposed to handle them alone. He is supposed to engage and if the situation dictates, leave that engagement and pull or go to the next level. Hard to do that if your legs are hurt all season.

    I'm personnnaly holding Sully's play last year as a gaff because he never really played at 100%. Lets see (if he starts at all) if he can replicate the 2009 performance, again, were he graded out exactly like Birk did.

    When you get paid the money he just got, I'm expecting he'll turn it up a bit. Now, whether he starts or not remains to be seen, I personally don't think he should. However, with that money, he's going to be our third down specialist, and he'll need to get some good numbers. I'm hoping for a Lance Johnstone-type player.
    Money shouldn't make you turn it up. You should have already turned it up. To sit here and think that a player holds back during a game and can turn it up cause he got more money is a bit silly IMHO. Thats like saying he isn't playing at 100%

    I thought he looked significantly better as a ROok than last year. Not sure what his issue was, but his play went downhill last year. Hopefully it was an undisclosed injury or something that he's overcome, but he NEEDS to step it up.
    Game tape is a great equalizer. I think the guys across the line (and their coaches) saw weaknesses in his game that they exploited. Same weaknesses our coaching staff should have fixed.

    Regardless, we need to see more from him. With the money given to him, I'd like to see some reliable hands, and the speed we paid for. Now, granted he's been banged up lately, but he needs to come to play. I'm not one of the guys who wants to trade or cut him, he's by far our third-best receiver, but if Rice isn't back, we need to see some Berrian this year.
    Again with the money. Who cares. He was signed to run 8 and 9 routes. Injuries to other players asked him to do more. He is one of those cats that can't do more, just like Randy Moss. No one expects him to run a 1 or a 4 route.
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  4. #24
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    Re: 10 Vikings with the Most to Prove in 2011

    Haven't heard anybody mention that Singletary may have a lot to prove. He looked pretty good at the beginning with San Fran. Last year they really played below expectations. If he is to ever have another shot at HC in the league, He will have to show he has helped the Vikes next year. In that way he may get offers to be a coordinator somewhere, and begin the climb back up the ladder.
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  5. #25
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    Re: 10 Vikings with the Most to Prove in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1100036
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1100028
    It's not who has or has not played up to expectations, it's who's going to play to their expectations next year. Jasper for example has played pretty well, but is really still a liability in pass coverage. If he's potentially getting a shot to start full-time next season in Lebers place(Don't think he should personally), is he ready? We'll see I guess.
    I hear ya, however, as I pointed out, they progressed pretty well why would one not think they would continue to progress?

    Stacked position? You call (Hurt)Rice, Harvin, Berrian, Lewis, and even Baskett stacked? He should be able to beat out Lewis and Baskett if he's really as talented as some reports we've been hearing. Unfortunately he got hurt last season, but h e's like Allison. We just need to see some performance, otherwise he'll see the door.
    I think you've missed some things that held him back like injuries were he couldn't have beaten out the likes of Lewis.

    If healthy, I expect JJ will have a good year. If he is battling injuries again, I suspect the team will move on.
    Hence the whole 'has something to prove' thing. If he was a proven player, the team would be willing to wait on his injuries.
    Asher looked average at best, and absolutely awful at worst. He has not done what I expect from a (2nd?) round pick 3 seasons in. He needs to step it up. I'll be pleasantly surprised if he turns out like Griffin, as you might remember me harping on him about this time in his career.
    LOL, I do remember your impatience with Griff. Rings almost exactly with what your saying about Asher. Just like I kept telling everyone (there were a couple of stuck with Griff) that Griff was coming around. Asher played pretty damn good last year, all things considered.
    And yet all players don't work out the same. If Allen turns out like Griff does, great. But since he's not nearly there yet, he has something to prove here.
    As well as the guy he replaced? You're one of a handful of people who believe that. The others being Sullivan's immediate family. He quite frankly is NOT strong enough to handle some bigger DT/NTs. He gets pushed around, and has not really looked GOOD at any point in his career. He's looked acceptable at times, but never GOOD.
    The handfull actually refer back to 2009 were he actually faced some pretty damn good NT's playing in 3-4 defenses.
    I disagree. I thought he got tossed around vs. some 3-4 teams and do not think he played well in 09.
    Besides, in the ZB scheme they ran, the C isn't supposed to handle them alone. He is supposed to engage and if the situation dictates, leave that engagement and pull or go to the next level. Hard to do that if your legs are hurt all season.
    Again, make all the excuses you want. If he's healthy, he needs to play well.
    I'm personnnaly holding Sully's play last year as a gaff because he never really played at 100%. Lets see (if he starts at all) if he can replicate the 2009 performance, again, were he graded out exactly like Birk did.
    I'd love to see anyone else agree with your claim that Sully has "graded out exactly like Birk".
    When you get paid the money he just got, I'm expecting he'll turn it up a bit. Now, whether he starts or not remains to be seen, I personally don't think he should. However, with that money, he's going to be our third down specialist, and he'll need to get some good numbers. I'm hoping for a Lance Johnstone-type player.
    Money shouldn't make you turn it up. You should have already turned it up. To sit here and think that a player holds back during a game and can turn it up cause he got more money is a bit silly IMHO. Thats like saying he isn't playing at 100%
    I never said he holds back. I'm saying the team gave him a pretty damn nice contract, they obviously expect alot from him. He needs to show he was worth that contract.
    I thought he looked significantly better as a ROok than last year. Not sure what his issue was, but his play went downhill last year. Hopefully it was an undisclosed injury or something that he's overcome, but he NEEDS to step it up.
    Game tape is a great equalizer. I think the guys across the line (and their coaches) saw weaknesses in his game that they exploited. Same weaknesses our coaching staff should have fixed.
    Think whatever you want. He played well his rook eyar, he played poorly last year. That has to change, no ifs, ands or butts about it.
    Regardless, we need to see more from him. With the money given to him, I'd like to see some reliable hands, and the speed we paid for. Now, granted he's been banged up lately, but he needs to come to play. I'm not one of the guys who wants to trade or cut him, he's by far our third-best receiver, but if Rice isn't back, we need to see some Berrian this year.
    Again with the money. Who cares. He was signed to run 8 and 9 routes. Injuries to other players asked him to do more. He is one of those cats that can't do more, just like Randy Moss. No one expects him to run a 1 or a 4 route.
    Yet, he hasn't hit on many 8 or 9 routes (I know, I know, it was all Favre's fault).

    Oddly enough, if you go back to 08 with Frerotte, alot of Berrians big plays weren't deep routes, they were slants or outs that he managed to take the distance.

  6. #26
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    Re: 10 Vikings with the Most to Prove in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by "marshallvike" #1100034
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1100032
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1100031
    Quote Originally Posted by "marshallvike" #1100027
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1100023
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1100018
    Meh, don't agree with that. 2nd year mid-round player IMO doesn't have too much to prove at this point. He was a backup, and not even a primary backup. He gets another year IMO with more reps before people should start calling him out.

    If I were to come up with a list, it would be:

    10. Jaymar Johnson
    9. Jasper Brinkley
    8. Madieu Williams
    7. Asher Allen
    6. John Sullivan
    5. Brian Robison
    4. Phil Loadholt
    3. Bernard Berrian
    2. Leslie Fraizer
    1. Zygi Wilf
    So you think players like Jasper, Asher, Sully and Load haven't atleast played up to their expected progression?

    I'll give you JJ and M-will, but in all essence, JJ has been fighting an uphill battle with respect to a stacked position so I really don't lable him as a "Most to Prove" and M-will is a scheme player that has been playing in a scheme that has other issues that directly reflect on his play as well.

    Jasper stepped in and played better than any would have expected when EJ went down.

    Asher has done almost as good and I expect that this year will be the year everyone recognizes that progression.

    Sully hasn't done as bad as most on here would contend. Truth of the matter is his first year starting he graded out as well as the guy he replaced. I do worry about him and all the extra weight he seems to need to carry.

    Rob doesn't need to do anything other than what he has been doing. Now if he gets shoved into the starter role, I suspect that most will turn on him for poor play, when in fact he is being asked to do something he doesn't have the skillset to do.

    Load....I put him in the catagory of Asher. I for one, don't like it when we have to start rooks. Almost as much as I don't like fans who hack on the kid cause he is put in a situation he probably isn't ready to be in.

    BB. He is one I'm not sure on. Truth of the matter is, I think his numbers went down cause he was asked to play inside. Thats kindof like asking Randy Moss to run crossing routes in a 3 tree. Nothing good will come of it. Mix that in with the assumption that we are going to start a rookie QB and I just don't see the need for the "Deep threat" (8 & 9 route trees) that he is in the scheme to do.
    BB's hands have been injured since he came into the league.

    It's really not that he doesn't have the ability, he just seems to lose focus on occasion during the game. Unfortunately, he was the best available reciever in a free agent year that we desparately needed a deep threat.
    Some players do well catching the ball in traffic (i.e. Rice/Harvin) and some don't. BB is one of those guys I think struggles when you put him into the 4, 5, 6 and 7 route trees because of the congestion that is associated with those routes.

    Unless of course you have someone clearing them out for him. He did have some success cathing the short stuff at times, but in those instances he was wide open.
    He also seemed to drop a fair share of balls while wide open. Even in traffic, he'd drop or tip balls before a defender touched him.

    it's one thing if youc an't hang on because you're getting hit or a guy is all over you, but I think it's just in his head.
    He was the same way in Chicago before we got him. Sometimes make a big play for huge yardage, sometimes drop an easy one set right on him in flight. The Bears weren't too upset about losing him.
    Truth is, all recievers drop the ball at times. Nature of the game.

    I sometimes think that because of the Troy Williamson fiasco, us Vikings fans might be just a bit over sensatised to it.
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  7. #27
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    Re: 10 Vikings with the Most to Prove in 2011

    #7

    Tyrell Johnson

    Leslie Frazier still seems to have hope for the 4th year player by saying “this is his year. We’re counting on him to have a big year for us and push to be a starter for our football team.” As it stands now Johnson will be headed into 2011 competing with Madieu Williams for the starting Free Safety spot.

    Leslie Frazier has made it clear what he expects from Tyrell Johnson now it’s up to him to prove he can deliver in 2011.
    10 Vikings with the Most to Prove in 2011: #7

    Makes one wonder why Leslie is backing the kid so hard.
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  8. #28
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    Re: 10 Vikings with the Most to Prove in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1100123
    #7

    Tyrell Johnson

    Leslie Frazier still seems to have hope for the 4th year player by saying “this is his year. We’re counting on him to have a big year for us and push to be a starter for our football team.” As it stands now Johnson will be headed into 2011 competing with Madieu Williams for the starting Free Safety spot.

    Leslie Frazier has made it clear what he expects from Tyrell Johnson now it’s up to him to prove he can deliver in 2011.
    10 Vikings with the Most to Prove in 2011: #7

    Makes one wonder why Leslie is backing the kid so hard.
    I'd love to see Tyrell "get it" and come out and steal Madieu's spot. Tyrell is pretty athletic, but seems to have too many breakdowns. Anything to get M-Will off the field, and if that means sticking Tyrell out there, great, as long as he earns it.

  9. #29
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    Re: 10 Vikings with the Most to Prove in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1100126
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1100123
    #7

    Tyrell Johnson

    Leslie Frazier still seems to have hope for the 4th year player by saying “this is his year. We’re counting on him to have a big year for us and push to be a starter for our football team.” As it stands now Johnson will be headed into 2011 competing with Madieu Williams for the starting Free Safety spot.

    Leslie Frazier has made it clear what he expects from Tyrell Johnson now it’s up to him to prove he can deliver in 2011.
    10 Vikings with the Most to Prove in 2011: #7

    Makes one wonder why Leslie is backing the kid so hard.
    I'd love to see Tyrell "get it" and come out and steal Madieu's spot. Tyrell is pretty athletic, but seems to have too many breakdowns. Anything to get M-Will off the field, and if that means sticking Tyrell out there, great, as long as he earns it.
    I still say that most of our S issues track back to the front 4. Fix that and guys like Sanford, Tyrell and M-will will be fine for what is asked of them.

    Don't fix the front 4 and the S will continue to let us down because we are asking (as we are with our CB's) them to play in a scheme they aren't suited to play in.

    In short, the C2 doesn't ask our secondary to be shutdown guys. It asks them to cover a zone and then run to the ball to minimize YAC. Bringing them up into shorter zones or having to cover a zone that isn't theirs cause we are blitzing a LB all the time will be discovered by the O-coord and they will then exploit the secondary which will in turn result in plays were the S is beat cause he is out of position (taking a bad angle) so far even a shutdown guy wouldn't be able to recover.
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  10. #30
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    Re: 10 Vikings with the Most to Prove in 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1100132
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1100126
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1100123
    #7

    Tyrell Johnson

    Leslie Frazier still seems to have hope for the 4th year player by saying “this is his year. We’re counting on him to have a big year for us and push to be a starter for our football team.” As it stands now Johnson will be headed into 2011 competing with Madieu Williams for the starting Free Safety spot.

    Leslie Frazier has made it clear what he expects from Tyrell Johnson now it’s up to him to prove he can deliver in 2011.
    10 Vikings with the Most to Prove in 2011: #7

    Makes one wonder why Leslie is backing the kid so hard.
    I'd love to see Tyrell "get it" and come out and steal Madieu's spot. Tyrell is pretty athletic, but seems to have too many breakdowns. Anything to get M-Will off the field, and if that means sticking Tyrell out there, great, as long as he earns it.
    I still say that most of our S issues track back to the front 4. Fix that and guys like Sanford, Tyrell and M-will will be fine for what is asked of them.

    Don't fix the front 4 and the S will continue to let us down because we are asking (as we are with our CB's) them to play in a scheme they aren't suited to play in.

    In short, the C2 doesn't ask our secondary to be shutdown guys. It asks them to cover a zone and then run to the ball to minimize YAC. Bringing them up into shorter zones or having to cover a zone that isn't theirs cause we are blitzing a LB all the time will be discovered by the O-coord and they will then exploit the secondary which will in turn result in plays were the S is beat cause he is out of position (taking a bad angle) so far even a shutdown guy wouldn't be able to recover.
    Then riddle me this, why is it that Abdullah seems so good?

    It's because we're used to seeing such poor performance from our Safeties, that above average play looks incredible.

    Using a leage-wide standard, Abdullah played well, but certainly isn't an elite safety by any strech of the imagination. But comparatively, you could not imagine replacing him because thus far he's been the ONLY guy who seems to have figured out the T2 from a safety's perspective on this team.

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