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  1. #11
    singersp's Avatar
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    Re: Will Vinatieri get a tag or ticket out of town?

    "kramer9guy" wrote:
    "ltrey33" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "ltrey33" wrote:
    "gregair13" wrote:
    3million for a kicker? i dont care if we have all the cap room in the world, i would not want to pay that much for a stupid kicker.
    I can't believe you would say that after all of the troubles we've had with special teams. After Gary choking Anderson.......
    Before you go off spouting about how poor Gary "choking" Anderson was as a kicker, let me point out that while we had him, he was a great kicker for us.

    One of the best.

    Here's his percentages as a MN Viking vs. Vinatieri;

    Name | FGS | PATS
    Anderson| 84.1% |98.8%
    Vinatieri | 81.9% |98.1%

    Enough said!
    I never said he was a bad kicker, he was a great kicker for us. He is the NFL's all time leader in points. He was perfect all of 1998, but that doesn't mean jack pooh if he can't hit the big one, and he didn't. I just said he choked, and he did. That's part of being a kicker. Your legacy as a kicker is defined by the kicks you make and miss when the game is on the line. That's why Vinatieri is one of the best ever and Scott Norwood is a goat. So I was backing up my argument saying that a clutch kicker (which Vinatieri is) is important, and that he's worth 3 million dollars because he's reliable when you need him most.
    "ltrey33" wrote:
    "gregair13" wrote:
    3million for a kicker? i dont care if we have all the cap room in the world, i would not want to pay that much for a stupid kicker.
    I can't believe you would say that after all of the troubles we've had with special teams. After Gary choking Anderson, Morten i can' kick over 30 yards Andersen, Jose Cortez, Aaron Elling, and Hayden Epstein you would say that a kicker isn't worth the money? Vinatieri has a HUGE leg, and he's clutch.

    How many Super Bowls would the Pats have won if they didn't have him? We're talking game winners in 2 of 3 games and not to mention the winner through the snow in the 'tuck rule' game. Plus, after watching Brown miss two field goals in the Super Bowl that would have changed the game and watching Vanderjagt miss the game tying field goal in the divisional playoffs, I don't understand how you can say it's a "stupid kicker". He'd be worth the money, IMO.


    Couldn't have said it better myself ltrey33. I agree on all points.
    There is still no evidence shown of how many "clutch kicks" both of them missed.

    Every kick is important in a game, not just the last one. It's 3 points lost for every miss, whether it's the 1st quarter or the last seconds of the game.

    Perhaps if a kicker doesn't miss one or two kicks earlier in a game, it doesn't have to or should have come down to a last second FG

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  2. #12
    Ltrey33 is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Will Vinatieri get a tag or ticket out of town?

    "singersp" wrote:
    "kramer9guy" wrote:
    "ltrey33" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "ltrey33" wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by gregair13
    3million for a kicker? i dont care if we have all the cap room in the world, i would not want to pay that much for a stupid kicker.
    I can't believe you would say that after all of the troubles we've had with special teams. After Gary choking Anderson.......
    Before you go off spouting about how poor Gary "choking" Anderson was as a kicker, let me point out that while we had him, he was a great kicker for us.

    One of the best.

    Here's his percentages as a MN Viking vs. Vinatieri;

    Name | FGS | PATS
    Anderson| 84.1% |98.8%
    Vinatieri | 81.9% |98.1%

    Enough said!
    I never said he was a bad kicker, he was a great kicker for us. He is the NFL's all time leader in points. He was perfect all of 1998, but that doesn't mean jack pooh if he can't hit the big one, and he didn't. I just said he choked, and he did. That's part of being a kicker. Your legacy as a kicker is defined by the kicks you make and miss when the game is on the line. That's why Vinatieri is one of the best ever and Scott Norwood is a goat. So I was backing up my argument saying that a clutch kicker (which Vinatieri is) is important, and that he's worth 3 million dollars because he's reliable when you need him most.
    "ltrey33" wrote:
    "gregair13" wrote:
    3million for a kicker? i dont care if we have all the cap room in the world, i would not want to pay that much for a stupid kicker.
    I can't believe you would say that after all of the troubles we've had with special teams. After Gary choking Anderson, Morten i can' kick over 30 yards Andersen, Jose Cortez, Aaron Elling, and Hayden Epstein you would say that a kicker isn't worth the money? Vinatieri has a HUGE leg, and he's clutch.

    How many Super Bowls would the Pats have won if they didn't have him? We're talking game winners in 2 of 3 games and not to mention the winner through the snow in the 'tuck rule' game. Plus, after watching Brown miss two field goals in the Super Bowl that would have changed the game and watching Vanderjagt miss the game tying field goal in the divisional playoffs, I don't understand how you can say it's a "stupid kicker". He'd be worth the money, IMO.


    Couldn't have said it better myself ltrey33. I agree on all points.
    There is still no evidence shown of how many "clutch kicks" both of them missed.

    Every kick is important in a game, not just the last one. It's 3 points lost for every miss, whether it's the 1st quarter or the last seconds of the game.

    Perhaps if a kicker doesn't miss one or two kicks earlier in a game, it doesn't have to or should have come down to a last second FG
    It's true that they all count the same, but the kicks where you absolutely HAVE to make it are the ones that are the most important, because after that there are no second chances.

    How many guys in the history of pro sports are known for their scoring in the 1st quarter? Do you ever hear anyone talk about Michael Jordan making 1st quarter shots? No. They always talk about the game winners, the shot on Ehlo and the game winner in the finals to beat Utah, and rightfully so. The shots that you MUST make are crucial, and MUST be made if you're to win a championship.

    If you use your philosophy about 'it all counts the same', then what is the point of having a clutch performer? What's the point of having Elway, Montana or Brady? I'm sure Chris Chandler, Ken Anderson and Jake Delhomme made plenty of 1st quarter throws, but they didn't lead the game winning drives when they HAD to lead them, and that's why Elway, Montana and Brady are great, and the other three are now or will be forgotten.

  3. #13
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    Re: Will Vinatieri get a tag or ticket out of town?

    "LuckyVike" wrote:
    "gregair13" wrote:
    3million for a kicker? i dont care if we have all the cap room in the world, i would not want to pay that much for a stupid kicker.
    Kicker is the most underrated position on the field. To get a top kicker in the game I wouldn't mind paying some money. A good kicker can make or break a team... period.
    We already have a good kicker though! I like Edinger and until he proves to me that he's not fit for the job there's no point in spending what i'm sure is MUCH more for a big name guy. Edinger gets it done and that's what we need.
    ;-)

  4. #14
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    Re: Will Vinatieri get a tag or ticket out of town?

    "ltrey33" wrote:
    It's true that they all count the same, but the kicks where you absolutely HAVE to make it are the ones that are the most important, because after that there are no second chances.

    How many guys in the history of pro sports are known for their scoring in the 1st quarter? Do you ever hear anyone talk about Michael Jordan making 1st quarter shots? No. They always talk about the game winners, the shot on Ehlo and the game winner in the finals to beat Utah, and rightfully so. The shots that you MUST make are crucial, and MUST be made if you're to win a championship.

    If you use your philosophy about 'it all counts the same', then what is the point of having a clutch performer? What's the point of having Elway, Montana or Brady? I'm sure Chris Chandler, Ken Anderson and Jake Delhomme made plenty of 1st quarter throws, but they didn't lead the game winning drives when they HAD to lead them, and that's why Elway, Montana and Brady are great, and the other three are now or will be forgotten.
    So what your saying is it doesn't matter how many TD passes a reciver drops, as long as he catches the game winner. Or how many field goals a kicker misses as long as he's good in the clutch.

    It is true that great players will make plays under pressure. Of course Gary missed the one in the Atlanta game & Vinateiri made the ones in the Superbowl, but how many clutch kicks has he missed?

    Did he miss any in their last playoff game or in other non-superbowl games?

    How many did Gary miss?

    I'd rather have my team dominate an opponent rather than rely on last 2nd heroics because they were blew earlier opportunities.

    All I'm saying here is don't condemn Gary & say he was not a good kicker in the "clutch" based on one game.

    Gary came thru for us many times over the course of his tenure with the Vikes.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  5. #15
    Ltrey33 is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Will Vinatieri get a tag or ticket out of town?

    "singersp" wrote:
    "ltrey33" wrote:
    It's true that they all count the same, but the kicks where you absolutely HAVE to make it are the ones that are the most important, because after that there are no second chances.

    How many guys in the history of pro sports are known for their scoring in the 1st quarter? Do you ever hear anyone talk about Michael Jordan making 1st quarter shots? No. They always talk about the game winners, the shot on Ehlo and the game winner in the finals to beat Utah, and rightfully so. The shots that you MUST make are crucial, and MUST be made if you're to win a championship.

    If you use your philosophy about 'it all counts the same', then what is the point of having a clutch performer? What's the point of having Elway, Montana or Brady? I'm sure Chris Chandler, Ken Anderson and Jake Delhomme made plenty of 1st quarter throws, but they didn't lead the game winning drives when they HAD to lead them, and that's why Elway, Montana and Brady are great, and the other three are now or will be forgotten.
    So what your saying is it doesn't matter how many TD passes a reciver drops, as long as he catches the game winner. Or how many field goals a kicker misses as long as he's good in the clutch.

    It is true that great players will make plays under pressure. Of course Gary missed the one in the Atlanta game & Vinateiri made the ones in the Superbowl, but how many clutch kicks has he missed?

    Did he miss any in their last playoff game or in other non-superbowl games?

    How many did Gary miss?

    I'd rather have my team dominate an opponent rather than rely on last 2nd heroics because they were blew earlier opportunities.

    All I'm saying here is don't condemn Gary & say he was not a good kicker in the "clutch" based on one game.

    Gary came thru for us many times over the course of his tenure with the Vikes.
    No, I'm not saying that you can suck as long as you make it in the clutch, but I'll give up a kick here or there if I'm guaranteed the guy is going to make it when the game is on the line.

    I agree Gary came through for us, and we wouldn't have been nearly as good if he had'nt been 35/35 or whatever he was in the '98 season, but he missed it when it mattered the most. He doesn't take all of the blame, but he does take a large part of it (the other part goes to Randall Cunningham, but that's a different discussion).

    Besides, this whole thing started because someone said that kickers aren't worth the money, and I was just illustrating the point that we've had unreliable/bad kickers over the years and we should know the value of them, especially after a heartbreaking loss like the game against the Falcons.

  6. #16
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    Re: Will Vinatieri get a tag or ticket out of town?

    Fact of the matter is it should have never come down to that kick with the lead we had.

    And yes it's true kickers score a lot of the teams points during the course of a season & if you wan't to win games, you'd better have a damn good one on your team.

    And they should be paid accordingly.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  7. #17
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    Re: Will Vinatieri get a tag or ticket out of town?

    Lets just say that they are both very good kickers.. Gary Anderson did everything possible for us when he was here. That goes to prove my point from an earlier post. That some people said that Vandejagt was a choke artist, why because he missed a important kick in the playoffs? That kind of stuff happens, just because he missed does not make him a lousy kicker. I would take Mike Vanderjagt on my team any day of the week..

  8. #18
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    Re: Will Vinatieri get a tag or ticket out of town?

    Read my lips, There is NO WAY the Patriots ever think of letting this guy leave town, he is the definition of CLUTCH.
    "Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn t work hard."

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