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  1. #51
    V4L's Avatar
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    Re: Top 5: Quarterbacks

    Another thing on Bradshaw.. he got damn lucky with that immaculate reception or whatever.. Woulda been a loss there


  2. #52
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    Re: Top 5: Quarterbacks

    "V4L" wrote:
    "tastywaves" wrote:
    "V4L" wrote:
    "jmcdon00" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    [quote author=C Mac D link=topic=52370.msg969097#msg969097 date=1247586288]
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=52370.msg969092#msg969092 date=1247585996]
    [quote author=C Mac D link=topic=52370.msg969081#msg969081 date=1247584905]
    [quote author=gagarr link=topic=52370.msg969080#msg969080 date=1247584829]
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=52370.msg969071#msg969071 date=1247583696]
    [quote author=thatjusthappened28 link=topic=52370.msg968950#msg968950 date=1247550553]

    All-Time:
    1. Tom Brady
    2. Joe Montana
    3. John Elway
    4. Johnny Unitas
    5. Fran Tarkenton
    6. Steve Young
    7. Brett Favre
    8. Dan Marino
    9. Troy Aikman
    10. Roger Staubach

    Honorable Mention: Starr, Bradshaw, Graham, P. Manning, Moon, Kelly, Namath, Cunningham, Tittle and Griese

    (i know thats a lot of honorable mentions, coulda pry made top 20 but these good people
    I don't think anyone belongs on a top-10 list if they've never led a team to the big prize.
    That does NOT mean that all players who have (Dilfer, for example) should be placed ahead of a QB with fabulous numbers, but Otto Graham, for example, needs to be on the top-10 all-time list ahead of Marino.

    1.

    Joe Montana
    2.

    Otto Graham
    3.

    Terry Bradshaw
    4.

    Tom Brady
    5.

    Johnny Unitas
    6.

    Sammy Baugh
    7.

    Troy Aikman
    8.

    Peyton Manning
    9.

    Roger Staubach
    10. Brett Favre

    Honorable mention:
    Marino, Tarkenton, Kelly, Starr, etc.

    =Z=
    The opposite is also true.... just because you won the SB doesn't mean you should instantly be considered
    Bradshaw????
    Sure he has rings, but the Steeler D got him the rings.
    Bradshaws career QB rating is 70.9, Dilfer 70.2

    I love Bradshaw on Fox, but he was a above average QB at best, just like Big Ben.
    Bradshaw threw 212 career TDs and 210 career INTs...

    How he is over any of those QBs listed... even the honorable mention QBs... is odd to me.
    The biggest measure of success as an NFL QB to me is winning.
    I thought I'd stated that fairly clearly.
    So... you've added the team element...

    You aren't looking at the QBs performance when rating QB performance... you're adding in the whole team's performance... including Defense. Not sure how that equates to QB performance... but to each his own.
    [/quote]

    The undisputed leader of an NFL team is the quarterback.
    Over a career, QB numbers are also dependent on teammates (receivers, RBs, o-line, etc.) to achieve the great numbers.

    I have long said on PPO that there is a quality of being a Winner that is a must in defining greatness as a QB.
    Marino did not have it.
    Bradshaw did.


    Tarkenton, as great as his numbers were, was 0-3 as a Super Bowl starting QB for the Vikings.
    Even with some fabulous defenses on his side, he was never able to lead his team to victory.
    That is a strike against him on any all-time list, IMHO.

    Football is not baseball, where an easy examination of numbers can provide the "list" of greatest ever at a given position, particularly QB.

    =Z=
    [/quote]
    I totally disagree. There are natural winners and losers, but not every winning QB is going to be on a winning team. Marino was a great QB that never had a championship caliber team. Had he had the number 1 defense in the nfl like Bradshaw I have no doubt he would have won a superbowl.
    [/quote]


    +1

    Marino is probably the best pure passer i've seen

    Bradshaw.. Not so much
    [/quote]

    But there is a difference between a great passer and a winner.
    All depends on what defines greatness to a particular individual I guess.

    And jmc, you may not have any doubts that Marino would have led his team to a SB win if he had a better supporting cast, but that is pure speculation... the only proof is actually doing it.
    May not be fair, but it is the only way to truly gauge it.
    [/quote]


    Gus Frerotte had a decent win loss record last year

    I don't put much stock into that.. It's a team game

    Marino is the pooh
    [/quote]

    Its not wins and losses as much as it is winning the Super Bowl that guys like Marino is getting put down on the all time lists.
    Again, unless he plays in the big game and helps lead his team to victory you can't measure his true greatness.
    You can make a case that Marino didn't have a proper supporting cast like the others, but all that does is open up speculation on what he may have done had he been in that situation.
    The only true measure is actually doing it.
    The truly great qb's found a way to make their teams win.

    There is a lot more to being a good qb than what stats you put up and how accurate of a ball you throw, like being a leader and a competitor and making everyone around you better.


  3. #53
    V4L's Avatar
    V4L
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    Re: Top 5: Quarterbacks

    "tastywaves" wrote:
    "V4L" wrote:
    "tastywaves" wrote:
    "V4L" wrote:
    "jmcdon00" wrote:
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=52370.msg969100#msg969100 date=1247586927]
    [quote author=C Mac D link=topic=52370.msg969097#msg969097 date=1247586288]
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=52370.msg969092#msg969092 date=1247585996]
    [quote author=C Mac D link=topic=52370.msg969081#msg969081 date=1247584905]
    [quote author=gagarr link=topic=52370.msg969080#msg969080 date=1247584829]
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=52370.msg969071#msg969071 date=1247583696]
    [quote author=thatjusthappened28 link=topic=52370.msg968950#msg968950 date=1247550553]

    All-Time:
    1. Tom Brady
    2. Joe Montana
    3. John Elway
    4. Johnny Unitas
    5. Fran Tarkenton
    6. Steve Young
    7. Brett Favre
    8. Dan Marino
    9. Troy Aikman
    10. Roger Staubach

    Honorable Mention: Starr, Bradshaw, Graham, P. Manning, Moon, Kelly, Namath, Cunningham, Tittle and Griese

    (i know thats a lot of honorable mentions, coulda pry made top 20 but these good people
    I don't think anyone belongs on a top-10 list if they've never led a team to the big prize.
    That does NOT mean that all players who have (Dilfer, for example) should be placed ahead of a QB with fabulous numbers, but Otto Graham, for example, needs to be on the top-10 all-time list ahead of Marino.

    1.

    Joe Montana
    2.

    Otto Graham
    3.

    Terry Bradshaw
    4.

    Tom Brady
    5.

    Johnny Unitas
    6.

    Sammy Baugh
    7.

    Troy Aikman
    8.

    Peyton Manning
    9.

    Roger Staubach
    10. Brett Favre

    Honorable mention:
    Marino, Tarkenton, Kelly, Starr, etc.

    =Z=
    The opposite is also true.... just because you won the SB doesn't mean you should instantly be considered
    Bradshaw????
    Sure he has rings, but the Steeler D got him the rings.
    Bradshaws career QB rating is 70.9, Dilfer 70.2

    I love Bradshaw on Fox, but he was a above average QB at best, just like Big Ben.
    Bradshaw threw 212 career TDs and 210 career INTs...

    How he is over any of those QBs listed... even the honorable mention QBs... is odd to me.
    The biggest measure of success as an NFL QB to me is winning.
    I thought I'd stated that fairly clearly.
    So... you've added the team element...

    You aren't looking at the QBs performance when rating QB performance... you're adding in the whole team's performance... including Defense. Not sure how that equates to QB performance... but to each his own.
    [/quote]

    The undisputed leader of an NFL team is the quarterback.
    Over a career, QB numbers are also dependent on teammates (receivers, RBs, o-line, etc.) to achieve the great numbers.

    I have long said on PPO that there is a quality of being a Winner that is a must in defining greatness as a QB.
    Marino did not have it.
    Bradshaw did.


    Tarkenton, as great as his numbers were, was 0-3 as a Super Bowl starting QB for the Vikings.
    Even with some fabulous defenses on his side, he was never able to lead his team to victory.
    That is a strike against him on any all-time list, IMHO.

    Football is not baseball, where an easy examination of numbers can provide the "list" of greatest ever at a given position, particularly QB.

    =Z=
    [/quote]
    I totally disagree. There are natural winners and losers, but not every winning QB is going to be on a winning team. Marino was a great QB that never had a championship caliber team. Had he had the number 1 defense in the nfl like Bradshaw I have no doubt he would have won a superbowl.
    [/quote]


    +1

    Marino is probably the best pure passer i've seen

    Bradshaw.. Not so much
    [/quote]

    But there is a difference between a great passer and a winner.
    All depends on what defines greatness to a particular individual I guess.

    And jmc, you may not have any doubts that Marino would have led his team to a SB win if he had a better supporting cast, but that is pure speculation... the only proof is actually doing it.
    May not be fair, but it is the only way to truly gauge it.
    [/quote]


    Gus Frerotte had a decent win loss record last year

    I don't put much stock into that.. It's a team game

    Marino is the pooh
    [/quote]

    Its not wins and losses as much as it is winning the Super Bowl that guys like Marino is getting put down on the all time lists.
    Again, unless he plays in the big game and helps lead his team to victory you can't measure his true greatness.
    You can make a case that Marino didn't have a proper supporting cast like the others, but all that does is open up speculation on what he may have done had he been in that situation.
    The only true measure is actually doing it.
    The truly great qb's found a way to make their teams win.

    There is a lot more to being a good qb than what stats you put up and how accurate of a ball you throw, like being a leader and a competitor and making everyone around you better.


    [/quote]


    Are u aware of how crappy some of the teams he played on were?

    Or that u actually need a good team to get to the bowl?


  4. #54
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    Re: Top 5: Quarterbacks

    "V4L" wrote:
    "tastywaves" wrote:
    [

    Its not wins and losses as much as it is winning the Super Bowl that guys like Marino is getting put down on the all time lists.
    Again, unless he plays in the big game and helps lead his team to victory you can't measure his true greatness.
    You can make a case that Marino didn't have a proper supporting cast like the others, but all that does is open up speculation on what he may have done had he been in that situation.
    The only true measure is actually doing it.
    The truly great qb's found a way to make their teams win.

    There is a lot more to being a good qb than what stats you put up and how accurate of a ball you throw, like being a leader and a competitor and making everyone around you better.


    Are u aware of how crappy some of the teams he played on were?

    Or that u actually need a good team to get to the bowl?

    All I'm saying is that it's hard to put a QB on an all time great list without having them win a SB or two.
    As that is the ultimate measurement for a QB.
    If Marino was in Pittsburgh, Dallas, or San Fran during their dynasty years would he have turned in the same performances?
    Maybe, but all we can do is guess
    because it didn't happen.
    If Montana, Bradshaw, or Aikman/Stauback were in Miami would they have had any more luck than Moreno?
    Maybe not, but all we can do is guess because it didn't happen.

  5. #55
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    Re: Top 5: Quarterbacks

    "tastywaves" wrote:
    "V4L" wrote:
    "tastywaves" wrote:
    [

    Its not wins and losses as much as it is winning the Super Bowl that guys like Marino is getting put down on the all time lists.
    Again, unless he plays in the big game and helps lead his team to victory you can't measure his true greatness.
    You can make a case that Marino didn't have a proper supporting cast like the others, but all that does is open up speculation on what he may have done had he been in that situation.
    The only true measure is actually doing it.
    The truly great qb's found a way to make their teams win.

    There is a lot more to being a good qb than what stats you put up and how accurate of a ball you throw, like being a leader and a competitor and making everyone around you better.


    Are u aware of how crappy some of the teams he played on were?

    Or that u actually need a good team to get to the bowl?

    All I'm saying is that it's hard to put a QB on an all time great list without having them win a SB or two.
    As that is the ultimate measurement for a QB.
    If Marino was in Pittsburgh, Dallas, or San Fran during their dynasty years would he have turned in the same performances?
    Maybe, but all we can do is guess
    because it didn't happen.
    If Montana, Bradshaw, or Aikman/Stauback were in Miami would they have had any more luck than Moreno?
    Maybe not, but all we can do is guess because it didn't happen.

    There's plenty of greats in all positions that haven't won a ring

    I can't hold that strictly on one person and not include them in the greats because they were on shitty teams

    JMO

  6. #56
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    Re: Top 5: Quarterbacks

    "V4L" wrote:
    "tastywaves" wrote:
    "V4L" wrote:
    "tastywaves" wrote:
    [

    Its not wins and losses as much as it is winning the Super Bowl that guys like Marino is getting put down on the all time lists.
    Again, unless he plays in the big game and helps lead his team to victory you can't measure his true greatness.
    You can make a case that Marino didn't have a proper supporting cast like the others, but all that does is open up speculation on what he may have done had he been in that situation.
    The only true measure is actually doing it.
    The truly great qb's found a way to make their teams win.

    There is a lot more to being a good qb than what stats you put up and how accurate of a ball you throw, like being a leader and a competitor and making everyone around you better.


    Are u aware of how crappy some of the teams he played on were?

    Or that u actually need a good team to get to the bowl?

    All I'm saying is that it's hard to put a QB on an all time great list without having them win a SB or two.
    As that is the ultimate measurement for a QB.
    If Marino was in Pittsburgh, Dallas, or San Fran during their dynasty years would he have turned in the same performances?
    Maybe, but all we can do is guess
    because it didn't happen.
    If Montana, Bradshaw, or Aikman/Stauback were in Miami would they have had any more luck than Moreno?
    Maybe not, but all we can do is guess because it didn't happen.

    There's plenty of greats in all positions that haven't won a ring

    I can't hold that strictly on one person and not include them in the greats because they were on shitty teams

    JMO
    +1, an example is the popular Moss-haters argument.
    He never won a ring.

    You would be a retard to say he wasn't one of the best receivers over the past 10 years.
    Just because he was never on a great team that could win (except 98) doesn' tmake him a poor player.


  7. #57
    VikingsfaninNC's Avatar
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    Re: Top 5: Quarterbacks

    Top 5 QBs Modern Day
    1)Tom Brady
    2)Peyton Manning
    3)Drew Brees
    4)Brett Favre
    5)Ben Rothlisberger
    Honorable Mention) Matt Ryan(due to upside of carrer)

  8. #58
    tastywaves's Avatar
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    Re: Top 5: Quarterbacks

    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    "V4L" wrote:
    "tastywaves" wrote:
    "V4L" wrote:
    "tastywaves" wrote:
    [

    Its not wins and losses as much as it is winning the Super Bowl that guys like Marino is getting put down on the all time lists.
    Again, unless he plays in the big game and helps lead his team to victory you can't measure his true greatness.
    You can make a case that Marino didn't have a proper supporting cast like the others, but all that does is open up speculation on what he may have done had he been in that situation.
    The only true measure is actually doing it.
    The truly great qb's found a way to make their teams win.

    There is a lot more to being a good qb than what stats you put up and how accurate of a ball you throw, like being a leader and a competitor and making everyone around you better.


    Are u aware of how crappy some of the teams he played on were?

    Or that u actually need a good team to get to the bowl?

    All I'm saying is that it's hard to put a QB on an all time great list without having them win a SB or two.
    As that is the ultimate measurement for a QB.
    If Marino was in Pittsburgh, Dallas, or San Fran during their dynasty years would he have turned in the same performances?
    Maybe, but all we can do is guess
    because it didn't happen.
    If Montana, Bradshaw, or Aikman/Stauback were in Miami would they have had any more luck than Moreno?
    Maybe not, but all we can do is guess because it didn't happen.

    There's plenty of greats in all positions that haven't won a ring

    I can't hold that strictly on one person and not include them in the greats because they were on poohie teams

    JMO
    +1, an example is the popular Moss-haters argument.
    He never won a ring.

    You would be a Challenged Hillybilly Lover to say he wasn't one of the best receivers over the past 10 years.
    Just because he was never on a great team that could win (except 98) doesn' tmake him a poor player.

    Different situation with a receiver or any other position than QB IMO.
    However, if Randy had performed heroics with the Patriots (the heavy favorite and maybe the most talented team in the modern era) in a SB win, his legacy would be much stronger than it is today.


    I agree though that Moss is one of the best receivers over the last 10 years.

  9. #59
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    Re: Top 5: Quarterbacks

    "tastywaves" wrote:
    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    "V4L" wrote:
    "tastywaves" wrote:
    "V4L" wrote:
    [quote author=tastywaves link=topic=52370.msg971169#msg971169 date=1247953021]
    [

    Its not wins and losses as much as it is winning the Super Bowl that guys like Marino is getting put down on the all time lists.
    Again, unless he plays in the big game and helps lead his team to victory you can't measure his true greatness.
    You can make a case that Marino didn't have a proper supporting cast like the others, but all that does is open up speculation on what he may have done had he been in that situation.
    The only true measure is actually doing it.
    The truly great qb's found a way to make their teams win.

    There is a lot more to being a good qb than what stats you put up and how accurate of a ball you throw, like being a leader and a competitor and making everyone around you better.


    Are u aware of how crappy some of the teams he played on were?

    Or that u actually need a good team to get to the bowl?

    All I'm saying is that it's hard to put a QB on an all time great list without having them win a SB or two.
    As that is the ultimate measurement for a QB.
    If Marino was in Pittsburgh, Dallas, or San Fran during their dynasty years would he have turned in the same performances?
    Maybe, but all we can do is guess
    because it didn't happen.
    If Montana, Bradshaw, or Aikman/Stauback were in Miami would they have had any more luck than Moreno?
    Maybe not, but all we can do is guess because it didn't happen.

    There's plenty of greats in all positions that haven't won a ring

    I can't hold that strictly on one person and not include them in the greats because they were on poohie teams

    JMO
    +1, an example is the popular Moss-haters argument.
    He never won a ring.

    You would be a Challenged Hillybilly Lover to say he wasn't one of the best receivers over the past 10 years.
    Just because he was never on a great team that could win (except 98) doesn' tmake him a poor player.

    Different situation with a receiver or any other position than QB IMO.
    However, if Randy had performed heroics with the Patriots (the heavy favorite and maybe the most talented team in the modern era) in a SB win, his legacy would be much stronger than it is today.


    I agree though that Moss is one of the best receivers over the last 10 years.
    [/quote]

    Even though wins are a team stat, they are much more important to a QB than to a WR. Elway is one of the all time greats because of his back to back rings. Manning is considered one of the best after he got his ring. Brady is only in this argument because of all the damn winning he does. Marino is likely the best pure passer of all time, but for a QB winning is just as important as passing yards and tds.

    We're bringing purple back.

  10. #60
    V4L's Avatar
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    Re: Top 5: Quarterbacks

    I also think Tark is an all time great

    Lost 4 times tho

    I can't pin it on him tho.. He takes part of the blame like everyone else

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