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  1. #21
    bsmithberkley is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Re:Tight ends a better decade than any position group

    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    I liked the article and I think it underscores the importance of "Versatile" TEs in the NFL.

    Here is hoping that the rumblings about Shuler's pass catching abilities from OTA's and Minicamp are sustained in training camp and pre-season. He is a ridiculous sound TE/H-Back in the fundamentals and is much more powerful than given credit for. If it turns out that his pass catching skills were just "underexposed" as the blocking half of the Penn St duo with Quarles he could really be a nice surprise.
    He looks to be one of those "In Line" TE's. Blocks first, catches the ball second.

    I for one hope he can block.
    I see him as more of an all-around threat. Seeing time as an H-back and TE (he can line-up at FB as well) with his blocking skills being his invitation to get on the field at first. He should shine most as an H-Back or in two TE sets going in motion as the one negative I have seen that bothered me is he is a little slow getting off the line and getting into routes as a TE.

    I know I have said it before, but, this guys physical talents scream that he will be a very good receiver as well. Only time will tell for sure, but his reviews from camp were that he was a huge surprise catching everything and making a lot of difficult catches and if you look at interviews he seems very sincere about "pass catching" being the strength of his game and being under utilized in that role at Penn St where Joe P luvs him some blocking TE. Considering he was an elite blocking TE in college that bodes well for his pass catching abilities.

    Don't let his draft position hold you back as this was a banner year for TEs in the draft.

    Maybe he forces Tahi out and we go H-Back heavy with a FB by committee approach. Did I mention that he is very powerful and has a reputation for being very hard hitting and for driving LBs back after contact?
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  2. #22
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    Re:Tight ends a better decade than any position group

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Umm.. you might recall Shank had a decent year last year too.

    more yards, with 7 TD's (not bad for a TE)

    Donald Lee my ass. The dude's a bum.
    You're right. Like I said, with a veteran QB at the helmet who likes to dump it off to the QB.

    I count Gus Frerotte as one of those, as well.

    He's had one good game with TJ in 2008 against Atlanta. But you can blame that on TJ's play, as well.

    Like I said, I don't think that he's a bad TE and he could start on quite a few teams in the league. To get that many TDs and yards you have to know how to get open. But he isn't a great player, either.
    "You can look pretty smart if you have a knack for planning ahead. That's Ted. The Packers are in good hands." - Ron Wolf


  3. #23
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re:Tight ends a better decade than any position group

    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    I liked the article and I think it underscores the importance of "Versatile" TEs in the NFL.

    Here is hoping that the rumblings about Shuler's pass catching abilities from OTA's and Minicamp are sustained in training camp and pre-season. He is a ridiculous sound TE/H-Back in the fundamentals and is much more powerful than given credit for. If it turns out that his pass catching skills were just "underexposed" as the blocking half of the Penn St duo with Quarles he could really be a nice surprise.
    He looks to be one of those "In Line" TE's. Blocks first, catches the ball second.

    I for one hope he can block.
    I see him as more of an all-around threat. Seeing time as an H-back and TE (he can line-up at FB as well) with his blocking skills being his invitation to get on the field at first. He should shine most as an H-Back or in two TE sets going in motion as the one negative I have seen that bothered me is he is a little slow getting off the line and getting into routes as a TE.

    I know I have said it before, but, this guys physical talents scream that he will be a very good receiver as well. Only time will tell for sure, but his reviews from camp were that he was a huge surprise catching everything and making a lot of difficult catches and if you look at interviews he seems very sincere about "pass catching" being the strength of his game and being under utilized in that role at Penn St where Joe P luvs him some blocking TE. Considering he was an elite blocking TE in college that bodes well for his pass catching abilities.

    Don't let his draft position hold you back as this was a banner year for TEs in the draft.

    Maybe he forces Tahi out and we go H-Back heavy with a FB by committee approach. Did I mention that he is very powerful and has a reputation for being very hard hitting and for driving LBs back after contact?
    I think what I refer to as a "In line" TE, means he is a all around threat that doesn't tip the defense to what the offense is gonna do when he comes in.

    Watching what the trend is (spread offenses) towards the smaller/faster guy that is a better reciever than a blocker, at the collegiate level, there aren't alot of them coming out the last couple of years.
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  4. #24
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Tight ends a better decade than any position group

    Rockmolder wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Umm.. you might recall Shank had a decent year last year too.

    more yards, with 7 TD's (not bad for a TE)

    Donald Lee my ass. The dude's a bum.
    You're right. Like I said, with a veteran QB at the helmet who likes to dump it off to the QB.

    I count Gus Frerotte as one of those, as well.

    He's had one good game with TJ in 2008 against Atlanta. But you can blame that on TJ's play, as well.

    Like I said, I don't think that he's a bad TE and he could start on quite a few teams in the league. To get that many TDs and yards you have to know how to get open. But he isn't a great player, either.
    I kindof trend towards calling someone "Great" only after his career is over.

    I think when its all said and done, Shanc will go down as pretty damn close when you mention the "Greats" at his position.

    On a side note, glad he is putting some weight back on this year. Wasn't happy to see him slimming down last year. Hurts in the pass/run blocking IMHO.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  5. #25
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re:Tight ends a better decade than any position group

    Ok, so waht you're saying applies to most players. Without a QB worth a damn, they don't produce as well?

    Shank had a bad season with TJ, but it wasn't all TJ's doing. Shank was dropping lots of balls. He's improved his catching, and makes some very good catches. He still has a number of drops, but he makes up for it with good play otherwise, wasn't the case his first year his.

    Do you not think its entirely possible that maybe, after being a backup in NY, it took a while to get to the level we needed him?

    Like I said, I don't think that he's a bad TE and he could start on quite a few teams in the league. To get that many TDs and yards you have to know how to get open. But he isn't a great player, either.
    lol. And I suppose you think Finley is? Seems to be a common trend with packers fans. A few good games, and you think you've got the next TG or Winslow.

    Shiancoe could start on all NFCN teams except maybe the Bears. and would start on the majority of NFL teams. he's not 'elite', not the same group as guys like Gates, Witten, etc. but he's probably top 10 or 15 in the league.

  6. #26
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Tight ends a better decade than any position group

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Shank was dropping lots of balls. He's improved his catching, and makes some very good catches. He still has a number of drops, but he makes up for it with good play otherwise, wasn't the case his first year his.
    They don't have 2006 numbers, but he had 7 last year, 4 in 2008 and 2 in 2007.

    Not sure I would say he dropped alot prior to the Noodles arrival.

    Again, most of his efforts were in pass blocking, not running routes/dropping passes.


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  7. #27
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re:Tight ends a better decade than any position group

    Ah, right. The same page that claims Berrian only had 3 drops last year.

    By watching the games, not looking at incomplete stats, He clearly dropped alot of balls his first year. Some of them being key balls.

    I didn't know he had 7 drops last year, that number is a bit surprising, but I coudl maybe see it.

    Everyone and their dog knows he had more than 2 in 2007.

  8. #28
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Tight ends a better decade than any position group

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Ah, right. The same page that claims Berrian only had 3 drops last year.

    By watching the games, not looking at incomplete stats, He clearly dropped alot of balls his first year. Some of them being key balls.

    I didn't know he had 7 drops last year, that number is a bit surprising, but I coudl maybe see it.

    Everyone and their dog knows he had more than 2 in 2007.
    I bet every WR in the league are happy you don't track stats.

    On a side note, even though they might be a bit tighter in thier stats in this area, they are tight/apply it to all recievers.

    If you are using it as a metric to compare against other recievers, the data applies don't ya think? (Honest question)
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #29
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    Re:Tight ends a better decade than any position group

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Ok, so waht you're saying applies to most players. Without a QB worth a damn, they don't produce as well?

    Shank had a bad season with TJ, but it wasn't all TJ's doing. Shank was dropping lots of balls. He's improved his catching, and makes some very good catches. He still has a number of drops, but he makes up for it with good play otherwise, wasn't the case his first year his.

    Do you not think its entirely possible that maybe, after being a backup in NY, it took a while to get to the level we needed him?

    Like I said, I don't think that he's a bad TE and he could start on quite a few teams in the league. To get that many TDs and yards you have to know how to get open. But he isn't a great player, either.
    lol. And I suppose you think Finley is? Seems to be a common trend with packers fans. A few good games, and you think you've got the next TG or Winslow.

    Shiancoe could start on all NFCN teams except maybe the Bears. and would start on the majority of NFL teams. he's not 'elite', not the same group as guys like Gates, Witten, etc. but he's probably top 10 or 15 in the league.
    This has absolutely nothing to do with what I think about Finley. Not once did I even mention his name.

    Shiancoe was 16th in yards, 11th in catches and 20th in yards per game.

    The thing he has going for him is that he's a "TD Machine". He ranked 2nd with 11 last year.

    Spencer Havner ranked 17th with 4 last year.

    He's just a good, but not great, player. Nothing that special. Neither his stats or his play on the field show me anything that he's a great TE who I'd love to have.

    If I had the time, I'd throw you out a list of 10-15 TEs who I'd rather have than Shanc, based on production, but I have to get to work now.
    "You can look pretty smart if you have a knack for planning ahead. That's Ted. The Packers are in good hands." - Ron Wolf


  10. #30
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re:Tight ends a better decade than any position group

    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Ah, right. The same page that claims Berrian only had 3 drops last year.

    By watching the games, not looking at incomplete stats, He clearly dropped alot of balls his first year. Some of them being key balls.

    I didn't know he had 7 drops last year, that number is a bit surprising, but I coudl maybe see it.

    Everyone and their dog knows he had more than 2 in 2007.
    I bet every WR in the league are happy you don't track stats.

    On a side note, even though they might be a bit tighter in thier stats in this area, they are tight/apply it to all recievers.

    If you are using it as a metric to compare against other recievers, the data applies don't ya think? (Honest question)
    If it were, then yes. However, its not the case.

    Berrian had at least 3 drops in a single game last year. I can think of two more off the top of my head. Its clearly not right. I'm not sure how you can justify saying it is.

    Just like how I can't see how you justify linking to them claiming Shiancoe only dropped 2 passes his first year here. It just is NOT correct.

    There's a reason that nfl.com doesn't track drops. Its not a concrete stat. Who's to say Fitz having a pass graze his fingertips isn't a drop, but Rice dropping the pass that would ahve given him the Vikings single game record is?

    The site yous pull, are useful in certain occasions. Things that they calculate using real stats, such as targets, catch%, etc. are all good. They can be validated, and for the most part are fairly accurate. Things like Touchbacks, starting position, etc. Great.

    Things like drops and missed tackles however, they don't come close.

    Tell me honestly, that you think Shiancoe only dropped two balls.

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