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  1. #31
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    Re: Thank God we didn't draft Crabtree

    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "Caine" wrote:
    "kevoncox]<br" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    [quote author=kevoncox link=topic=52664.msg979814#msg979814 date=1249576378]
    [quote author=The Dropper link=topic=52664.msg979799#msg979799 date=1249575675]
    What a doooosh.

    Why are you playing football, jerk? Obviously not for love of the game. Obviously not because you want to be the best or win championships. If I were the Niners I wouldn't even want this feck on my team.
    What does the love of the game have to do with with getting your contract right. We beeyatch at players for taking a deal and then holding out when they complain it's unfair. I rather have a player stand his ground and get his contract right and play without any contract disputes.

    He is not going back into the draft. This isn't the 1960's where a player can decide to go back into the draft. In todays game, 1 year off is a killer to YOUNG players. Mike Vick now....that's another case.
    Get his contract right?
    He was drafted as #10 and is asking to be paid like a top 5.
    In a rookie salary situation that is WAY overinflated anyway.
    Again, I am not saying he is entitled to more money. I'm simply saying that I rather it gets taken care of upfront than him coming out of nowhere in 2011 and bitching to the media that he doesn't make enough. How many players do you see bitching in the middle of a contact about not making enough money. We always say, " They signed a contract, they should play it out"

    He is a diva but I rather he be a diva when he is entitled to negotiate his contract than blindsiding the team
    There is no winning position for teams when it comes to rookie contracts because the contracts are insane.

    Teams pony up huge piles of dough to players in the 1st round...and year after year we comment on how many of them wind up as busts.
    But they all walk away set for life.
    Hell, I can suck that bad too, where are MY millions?

    Then you have the guys who overachieve - the third and fourth rounders who come alive in year 3 of their rookie deal.
    They start whining because after ONE season of great numbers, they aren't making money like the elites.
    So they hold out and make all sorts of ruckus...and half of them fizzle after getting big contracts (Javon Walker?).

    Where does any of this make sense?


    It doesn't.

    Rookies should be paid a flat wage - determined by the NFL - for the first 2 years of their careers.
    After which, they would be restricted Free agents.
    No more millions for the #1 guy.
    Maybe 1 million for #1, and reduce it by $10,000 for each player subsequently picked throughout the first round.
    That puts #32 at $690,000.
    Not bad for playing a GAME.

    Everyone else gets rookie wages - whatever that is - for the same 2 year period, with the same restricted Free Agency tag.

    As an added incentive, each player DRAFTED gets a $100,000 bonus if they make the roster, and $50,000 if they don't.

    See, that's after thinking about it for 15 minutes.
    It isn't hard to fix - and it stops ALL the problems cold.
    Of course, that means they'll never do it.

    Caine
    Your idea is on the right track but 1 million is too low. I think it would have to start at 10 million and work it's way down. [/quote]

    Why?
    Do you have any concept of how much 1 million dollars is?

    In "Working Mans" terms, it's about 481 dollars per hour.
    Yes, per HOUR.

    If you make $20 per hour, it will take you just over 24 YEARS to earn 1 million dollars.
    Nd what is it that they have done that’s so friggin special that they deserve more than that?

    Nothing.

    "kevoncox]Your" wrote:
    Oh no, I’ve insulted people who play a game for a living by saying that they play a game.
    Somehow I think I’ll survive.
    After
    tours of duty as a Marine and as a Sailor, I don’t really feel obligated to cater to the whims of people who get paid MILLIONS to play GAME.
    Especially since I put a lot MORE on the line, and got paid a LOT less.

    And you say they HATE it?
    Really?
    Well, they can always quit and get a REAL job.
    Of course, they won’t get millions of dollars for doing it…and they won’t have 6 months off every year.
    But why bother?
    Since the overpaid 1st rounders
    already made millions, they have zero need to work – if they’re ven a tiny bit intelligent, and manage their money moderately well.

    Do YOU have that kind of freedom?
    I know I don’t.
    But I’ll bet YOUR job contributes more to the overall good of society than theirs does.

    "kevoncox]These" wrote:

    Again, boohoo.

    Every member of the Military risks far more, yet gets paid squat.
    Policemen,
    Firemen, EMT’s, Paramedics…all risk more and contribute more to society, yet get paid squat comparatively.

    So I should worry about insulting someone who was pampered and catered to since their early teen years?
    Someone who gets paid MILLIONS of dollars to play a GAME for 3 hours, one day a week?


    Somehow, I don’t think so.

    Caine
    Your attitude sucks and half the pooh you are saying isn't even true.
    Lets talk facts. Football does contribute to society IMHO. It's a source of entertainment and seeing that you frequent a website about football, I bet it's a huge part of your life.

    Next,
    Fact...not all Policemen aid society, some are corrupt. You can add teachers, doctors, lawyers and bankers to that list. Hell you can add any JOB to that list! That's my point, it's a job!

    Fact 3. Comparing yourself to an athlete is stupid. I hate when people compare their pay checks to an athletes. It's foolish. The path you took in life is your own. You were not privileged enough to make it to the NFL so bitching about not having an NFL check is a waste of time. Perharps, if you got up at the crack of dawn and ran and lifted weights as a little boy it may you would be there. Ofcourse you would have to hope that your parents genes combined to provide you with the right genetic traits to get you to the pros. Lets not forget all the other bumps and tribulations that you would have have to overcome to get into the Pros( i.e poor coaching at all levels, change in personal, and lastly playing time). Do you beeyatch at the top CEOs and ask what they deserve to get paid, when their jobs are easier than most NFL players. They delegate, do a bit of public speaking, smile and get paid out of the wazooo!. Bitching about some young kid that is asking to get paid what he think his abilities are worth, it makes the beeyatch'ee sound envious. Green is not a good color on you.

    Fact 4: The money these guys make are going to be in the millions. I'm sorry if arguing over 2 additional million dollars sounds greedy to you but i bet you received/ are receiving wages you feel are fair and in direct comparison to your peers. You are not Mr. Crabtree's peer. The CFO of Traget is not my peer. Him bitching about 2 additional weeks of rental time for the company's Swiss Villa sounds absurd to me but to him and his Peers, it's something to haggle over.
    Ya'll are really missing the point.

    NFL players get paid the big $$$, because they bring in big $$$$.
    If 90,000 people would pay a $100+ each to come and watch me and my colleagues work for 3 hours.
    I think I would ask for a raise.

    If the public was only willing to pay 10 cents per ticket and the games were broadcasted on ESPN 8 "the Ocho", then I think the NFL players would be bitching that we make too much.

    It's Crabtree's right to hold out as long as he wants, in the end he's only hurting himself.
    Also, most holdouts get hurt and you never know it could be a career ending one.
    Then he could take his millions guarenteed, blow through it like a idiot, and in a few years he'll be right where Ryan Leaf is.
    [size=12pt]
    Page 148.5 **Doleman 150.5 **Randle 137.5 **Allen 73+
    [/size]

  2. #32
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    Re: Thank God we didn't draft Crabtree

    Didn't think I'd ever say this... but this actually makes the Raiders look smart.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  3. #33
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    Re: Thank God we didn't draft Crabtree

    "kevoncox]<br" wrote:
    "kevoncox]<br" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    [quote author=The Dropper link=topic=52664.msg979799#msg979799 date=1249575675]
    What a doooosh.

    Why are you playing football, jerk? Obviously not for love of the game. Obviously not because you want to be the best or win championships. If I were the Niners I wouldn't even want this feck on my team.
    What does the love of the game have to do with with getting your contract right. We beeyatch at players for taking a deal and then holding out when they complain it's unfair. I rather have a player stand his ground and get his contract right and play without any contract disputes.

    He is not going back into the draft. This isn't the 1960's where a player can decide to go back into the draft. In todays game, 1 year off is a killer to YOUNG players. Mike Vick now....that's another case.
    Get his contract right?
    He was drafted as #10 and is asking to be paid like a top 5.
    In a rookie salary situation that is WAY overinflated anyway.
    Again, I am not saying he is entitled to more money. I'm simply saying that I rather it gets taken care of upfront than him coming out of nowhere in 2011 and bitching to the media that he doesn't make enough. How many players do you see bitching in the middle of a contact about not making enough money. We always say, " They signed a contract, they should play it out"

    He is a diva but I rather he be a diva when he is entitled to negotiate his contract than blindsiding the team
    There is no winning position for teams when it comes to rookie contracts because the contracts are insane.

    Teams pony up huge piles of dough to players in the 1st round...and year after year we comment on how many of them wind up as busts.
    But they all walk away set for life.
    Hell, I can suck that bad too, where are MY millions?

    Then you have the guys who overachieve - the third and fourth rounders who come alive in year 3 of their rookie deal.
    They start whining because after ONE season of great numbers, they aren't making money like the elites.
    So they hold out and make all sorts of ruckus...and half of them fizzle after getting big contracts (Javon Walker?).

    Where does any of this make sense?


    It doesn't.

    Rookies should be paid a flat wage - determined by the NFL - for the first 2 years of their careers.
    After which, they would be restricted Free agents.
    No more millions for the #1 guy.
    Maybe 1 million for #1, and reduce it by $10,000 for each player subsequently picked throughout the first round.
    That puts #32 at $690,000.
    Not bad for playing a GAME.

    Everyone else gets rookie wages - whatever that is - for the same 2 year period, with the same restricted Free Agency tag.

    As an added incentive, each player DRAFTED gets a $100,000 bonus if they make the roster, and $50,000 if they don't.

    See, that's after thinking about it for 15 minutes.
    It isn't hard to fix - and it stops ALL the problems cold.
    Of course, that means they'll never do it.

    Caine
    Your idea is on the right track but 1 million is too low. I think it would have to start at 10 million and work it's way down. [/quote]

    Why?
    Do you have any concept of how much 1 million dollars is?

    In "Working Mans" terms, it's about 481 dollars per hour.
    Yes, per HOUR.

    If you make $20 per hour, it will take you just over 24 YEARS to earn 1 million dollars.
    Nd what is it that they have done that’s so friggin special that they deserve more than that?

    Nothing.

    "kevoncox]Your" wrote:
    Oh no, I’ve insulted people who play a game for a living by saying that they play a game.
    Somehow I think I’ll survive.
    After
    tours of duty as a Marine and as a Sailor, I don’t really feel obligated to cater to the whims of people who get paid MILLIONS to play GAME.
    Especially since I put a lot MORE on the line, and got paid a LOT less.

    And you say they HATE it?
    Really?
    Well, they can always quit and get a REAL job.
    Of course, they won’t get millions of dollars for doing it…and they won’t have 6 months off every year.
    But why bother?
    Since the overpaid 1st rounders
    already made millions, they have zero need to work – if they’re ven a tiny bit intelligent, and manage their money moderately well.

    Do YOU have that kind of freedom?
    I know I don’t.
    But I’ll bet YOUR job contributes more to the overall good of society than theirs does.

    "kevoncox]These" wrote:

    Again, boohoo.

    Every member of the Military risks far more, yet gets paid squat.
    Policemen,
    Firemen, EMT’s, Paramedics…all risk more and contribute more to society, yet get paid squat comparatively.

    So I should worry about insulting someone who was pampered and catered to since their early teen years?
    Someone who gets paid MILLIONS of dollars to play a GAME for 3 hours, one day a week?


    Somehow, I don’t think so.

    Caine
    Your attitude sucks and half the pooh you are saying isn't even true.
    My "Attitude" sucks?
    Why, because I don't worship at the alter of overpaying pampered athletes?
    Because I can see that there is more to life than Football?
    Or, more telling, is it because I don't AT ALL agree with you?


    Ands show me ONE thing I said that wasn't true.
    Just ONE.


    "kevoncox]Lets" wrote:
    [quote]

    I'm not entirely certain that you are capable of doing so, but I'll play along...

    "kevoncox]Football" wrote:
    [quote]

    Huge?
    No.
    I enjoy the banter, and I enjoy the games, but truth be told if Football ceased operations RIGHT NOW for all time, I would quickly find something else to fill that void.


    And after making the statement that football DOES contribute to society, you failed to support that with examples of "how"...

    ...that's kind of important in a debate.

    "kevoncox]Next,
    " wrote:

    [quote]

    OK.
    But how many JOBS pay you MILLIONS of dollars before you've worked even one day?

    Aside from sports.....NONE.

    And now you want to twist this into a who's corrupt and who isn't?
    Really?
    IS your position THAT weak?
    (Yes, it is, I'm just making rhetorical comments to fill space here and to add to the drama of your next regurgitation of pointless drivel)

    Taking that same approach, how many football players are GOOD?
    How many are WORTH the millions - even compared solely against other Football players?
    Was Ryan Leaf worth the money?
    Ciatric Faison?
    Troy Williamson?
    And I could go on and on and on....

    Face it, most football players - even when compared ONLY within the NFL - aren't worth their contracts.
    This is ESPECIALLY true of Rookies.

    But when you compare them to the rest of society, the discrepancy with wages becomes ALARMING...

    ...except to people like you, apparantly.

    "kevoncox]Fact" wrote:
    [quote]

    What kind of stupid logic is that supposed to be?
    I didn't win the genetic lottery so I don't deserve millions of dollars before I've played a single down?
    What kind of door knob believes that kind of justification even remotely flies?

    Oh....sorry...

    "kevoncox]Do" wrote:
    [quote]

    In fact I do think CEO's are paid too much, and I've stated exactly that on these very boards before.
    I'm also of the opinion that companies that took bail out money shouldn't pay "bonuses" to executives.


    But our topic isn't CEO's, it's NFL rookies.


    "kevoncox]Bitching" wrote:
    [quote]

    Ironically, that same "young kid" is bitching because he ISN't being paid...yet that's ok?
    What a double standard you have set up here.

    As for envy....nope.
    I roll with it.
    I voiced my opinion - NFL rookies, and athletes in general, do NOT deserve the HUGE amounts of money they are being paid.
    Apparantly you believe otherwise...you just can't find any actual facts to support that opinon.

    "kevoncox]Fact" wrote:
    [quote]

    I got laid off because the CEO's in the auto iundustry ran their businesses into the ground.
    Do I feel I am receiving fair compensation?
    Are you kidding me?
    What are you smoking?


    "kevoncox]You" wrote:

    So now you're practicing elitism?
    I am not worthy, but Micheal Crabtree is?
    What a door knob.
    Without me and people like me, there would BE no NFL for Micheal cry-baby Crabtree to play in.
    But he's better than me?
    Am I really reading this?

    [quote author=kevoncox]The CFO of Traget is not my peer. Him bitching about 2 additional weeks of rental time for the company's Swiss Villa sounds absurd to me but to him and his Peers, it's something to haggle over.
    So that makes it RIGHT?

    Nevermind.
    It's thinking like yours that perpetuates the problems.
    And the Walton family and others like them would like to thank you for it.

    Caine

  4. #34
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    Re: Thank God we didn't draft Crabtree

    It's not thinking like mines that creates the problem. There is no problem. There is always going to be a jobs in an industry of entertainment and those people will always be paid more than the average Joe. However, bitching about it is absurd. Comparing yourself is absured. If youw ant to be made about something, be made at the owners who rake in over 70% of the TOTAL
    gross revenue. If you think Crabtree is making money, yous hould see what Kraft and the guys that sign their checks make.

    I have always been a believe in pay the Players. They are the ones that out their body and in some cases their LIVES on the line. IS it Vietnam? Hell no, but it's still a risky job nevertheless.

    People like you don't see the bigger picture. Allow me to connect the dots and aid you. Even if the players were paid less, the owners would just eat the residuals. I rather some kid that TYPICALLY grew up without it grab a few more crumbs(to owners) than let the fat cats on top continue their glutiness ways.

    Back to Mr. Tree. He is negotiating in the negotiation phase of signing his contract. I'm sorry this is so objectionable to you but his only leverage in this manner is withholding his services. I can't tell Crabtree how much he think his services are worth. If he believes it's more than by all means do so. However, I would rather the team and his lawyers get it right now than later. Ask Mr. Boldin!

    Let me leave you with one question. IF an NFL team was to contact you and offer you a contact to play for them, would you do it for $50,000 or would you demand to be paid in accordance to your new peers. Please keep in mind that the novelty of being around superstars on your team will wear thin eventually.

  5. #35
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    Re: Thank God we didn't draft Crabtree

    I can't believe you're still trying...but ok...

    "kevoncox]It's" wrote:
    [quote]

    You keep telling yourself there's no problem...
    As I said, it's people who think like you that perpetuate the problems.

    "kevoncox]There" wrote:
    [quote]

    Really?
    Yet if you never raise an objection, nothing is done to correct the inbalance.
    I guess I've never been one to advocate the "Sheep" lifestyle (Just shut up and go along), but I'm glad you enjoy it.

    "kevoncox]If" wrote:
    [quote]

    I didn't say the owners were any better, but they weren't the topic.
    Rookies were.
    The owners, at least, have invested something into the franchise before they get to profit from it - rookies, according to your logic (and I use the term loosely) DON'T.

    "kevoncox]I" wrote:
    [quote]

    Don't even try.
    My point was - and is - that there are far nobler jobs that are far riskier, yet receive a fraction of the compensation.
    So, while that inbalance exists, I refuse pity a poor pampered athlete who has had everything handed to him because he happened to win the genetic lottery.
    Boo-friggin-hoo.


    "kevoncox]People" wrote:
    [quote]

    People like me what?!?!?!?
    This coming from a guy who has his head up his....errr....has his head buried in the sand?!?!?!?
    Amazing!!!!

    Of COURSE I know the owners would initially pocket the difference.
    One issue at a time.
    In 10 years, by NOT paying 30 million guaranteed to a rookie, the team saves about $290,000,000 dollars.
    Instead, the NFL should use the moneys they DON'T overpay Rookies to do 4 things:

    1:
    Create a trust for players who are permanantly injured while playing.

    2:
    Fund a health care package for all former players with at least 24 months service.

    3:
    Create a stadium refinancing program that is funded by the teams themselves and guarantees that there is money to rebuild when expansion becomes neccessary instead of requiring public moneys for the bulk.


    4:
    Create a pension plan for NFL players who play at least 6 seasons...based solely upon NEED (i.e., a guy who made 5 mill per season for 6 years gets zip)

    How is THAT bad?

    And, frighteningly, it only took me about 10 minutes to come up with that.

    "kevoncox]Back" wrote:

    Again, how is he WORTH it?
    He's done NOTHING.

    [quote author=kevoncox]Let me leave you with one question. IF an NFL team was to contact you and offer you a contact to play for them, would you do it for $50,000 or would you demand to be paid in accordance to your new peers. Please keep in mind that the novelty of being around superstars on your team will wear thin eventually.
    How is that relevant?
    Just because everyone would TAKE the NFL money doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
    See, the trouble is that the NFL players and owners are taking the short view.
    They don't give back, they just take and take and take....just like the auto inducstry did, and the financial industry did, and without doing something to protect the very market they are profiting off of, they will implode.
    Ask the NHL.

    Imagine how much of a positive impact the NFL could have if players took 20% less?
    Just 20%.
    Maxing out the salary cap, the NFL could pay out over 4 BILLION dollars per season to the players alone.
    With a 53 man roster, that averages out to be 2.4 million dollars PER PLAYER.

    20% of that would be @ 25 million per team, or about 800 million dollars NFL wide.
    Imagine what could be done with that instead of rewarding pampered over priced athletes....

    Caine

  6. #36
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    Re: Thank God we didn't draft Crabtree

    Caine,
    You are living in a land of what ifs my friend. Lets talk about reality. A rookie wage scale is needed and needed badly. However, Mr. Crabtree will not be employed under said scale. I am not trying to say he deserves it. Hell, I'm the only person that deserves that kind of money. What I am saying is that this is the current system and he is well within his right to negotiate for it. I rather negotiate for it now than later. Under the current system it's HIM or the owner that will be getting it.

    BTW not every Athlete has lived a pampered life and has had everything handed to them. It's generaliztions like this that make you arguments so hard to swallow.




  7. #37
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    Re: Thank God we didn't draft Crabtree

    "kevoncox]<br" wrote:

    And I'm saying that he's a sally-assed little powerpuff that should take what he's being offered - since it's in line with the accepted draft order (overblown) compensation package that has been in place for years - instead of trying to reinvent the wheel and force negotiations for everyone else into a tailspin which simply further highlights how greedy his yet-to-play-a-down-in-the-NFL-ass is.

    [quote author=kevoncox]BTW not every Athlete has lived a pampered life and has had everything handed to them. It's generaliztions like this that make you arguments so hard to swallow.
    I apologize...only 97.3 percent of them are pampered.
    Happy now?

    Caine

  8. #38
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    Re: Thank God we didn't draft Crabtree

    "Caine" wrote:
    [quote]
    "kevoncox]<br" wrote:
    [quote]

    And I'm saying that he's a sally-assed little powerpuff that should take what he's being offered - since it's in line with the accepted draft order (overblown) compensation package that has been in place for years - instead of trying to reinvent the wheel and force negotiations for everyone else into a tailspin which simply further highlights how greedy his yet-to-play-a-down-in-the-NFL-jiggly butt is.

    "kevoncox]BTW" wrote:

    I apologize...only 97.3 percent of them are pampered.
    Happy now?

    Caine
    The guy behind him is unsigned. Kinda hard to determine his value. I blame the teams for waiting right before camp to get shit started.

  9. #39
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    Re: Thank God we didn't draft Crabtree

    "C" wrote:
    Didn't think I'd ever say this... but this actually makes the Raiders look smart.
    I understand what you are saying, here, CMac, but I would also submit that it was an accident.


    They reached for DHB and then overpaid for the man, slot-wise.


    Here is the partial result of that set of occurrences:

    Crabtree:
    I'm better than DHB
    Agent:
    Ya, you are better than DHB
    Crabtree:
    I should get more money than DHB
    Agent:
    Ya, you should get more money than DHB

    or vice-versa


    Here is the part ALL of you should love, regardless of the philosophical differences evidenced by the various posts.

    I will not rehash all the machinations and reasons for WHY Crabtree is bottlenecking picks 8 through (as of this writing, because I think Moreno at 12 will sign tonight) 11...but as one poster pointed out, you Vikes fans should be rejoicing and reveling in the (almost certain) fact that this diva is making it virtually impossible for my team to get B.J. Raji signed as the #9 pick.
    I couldn't stand this T.O. wannabe prior to the draft, was incredibly relieved when TT made the correct decision and went with Raji, and this little shit STILL has managed to reach up and bite me and all my fellow Packer fans right square in the ass, even as a 49er.


    I thought you would be pleased to have an update from Puker nation on the matter.
    ;D


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    Re: Thank God we didn't draft Crabtree

    I have some unsolicited advice for the 49ers on this:

    1. Tell Crabtree's camp that the current offer based on his draft slot ($4-5 million/year) will be on the table for only another 48 hours.
    2. Inform them that after that time, unless a reasonable counter offer has been received (to be determined by the team), the offer will be withdrawn and a new contract will be offered but that the compensation will be considerably decreased - in line with the 20th pick in the draft ($2-3 million/year), with decreased up front money so that each game check missed while holding out would be significant.
    Let it be known that this will be the team's last contract offer, but that the team will keep the offer on the table throughout the allowable time regardless of what is said in the press and that the team will review any offers made by Crabtree's camp.
    3. Explain in a letter that if he sits out, he will almost certainly slide far in the draft because of concerns generated by his holdout - that he will not be physically prepared, that he will again demand an excessive contract, and that he does not have a 'team' attitude.
    4. Tell him that the coaching staff will be happy to have him on the field whenever he chooses to sign, but that the team is prepared to go on without him if necessary and he risks alienating his teammates by making unreasonable demands and engaging in a protracted holdout.
    5. Give him contact information for front offices in the UFL, which has 4 teams and an expected labor budget this year of $16 million combined.
    Contracts in that league are expected to range from approximately $35,000 to several hundred thousand dollars for a six game season.
    6. Wish him luck and see what happens.

    I could be wrong, but I believe Crabtree's current demands to be paid more than a player drafted three spots ahead of him are unreasonable in the NFL marketplace.
    It seems to me that Crabtree needs the 49ers and the NFL a lot more than the 49ers and the NFL need Crabtree.


    When the age of the Vikings came to a close, they must have sensed it. Probably, they gathered together one evening, slapped each other on the back and said, "Hey, good job." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]

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