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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    What's "Funny" is how virtually every HC in the League appears to agree with us.

    Just sayin'...

    Caine
    Every head coach has shown as much venom towards Jackson as they have Ponder? Have you even read my posts?

    I'm not saying Jackson is a good QB or bad QB... I'm saying he played better than Ponder when you compare their first years as starts, yet Jackson had much more venom thrown at him on PPO than Ponder has.... it's not even close. You can try to make this into a Jackson argument (yet again...) but I'm simply trying to point out the hypocrisy of some on these boards. The focus is the hypocrites... not Jackson.

    After you read this, don't immediately respond. Give it some time to sink it. You'll get it eventually.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  2. #122
    Caine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Mac D View Post
    Every head coach has shown as much venom towards Jackson as they have Ponder? Have you even read my posts?

    I'm not saying Jackson is a good QB or bad QB... I'm saying he played better than Ponder when you compare their first years as starts, yet Jackson had much more venom thrown at him on PPO than Ponder has.... it's not even close. You can try to make this into a Jackson argument (yet again...) but I'm simply trying to point out the hypocrisy of some on these boards. The focus is the hypocrites... not Jackson.

    After you read this, don't immediately respond. Give it some time to sink it. You'll get it eventually.
    I get where you're going...I just don't AGREE.

    1: Jackson didn't get beat up on as badly as Singer makes it out. Not in year 2. Not until the carousel of terrible QB's began and there was NO APPRECIABLE DIFFERENCE between any of them. The following year, he failed to outplay Gus Frerotte. But those of us who were clamoring for change - those of us who were clearly stating our opposition to continuing the Jackson project - we were all labeled "haters"...despite being RIGHT.

    2: Again, it isn't just the stats. It's the WAY they play. Do I think Ponder is the answer? Not sure. Did I think Jackson was the answer after the same number of starts? No. What's different? their STYLE of play.

    It isn't hypocrisy. It's different players under different circumstances being judge on their INDIVIDUAL playing style. The fact that you and Singer choose to ignore that and focus ONLY on stats doesn't alter the validity of it. Simply put, stats aren't the whole story. They NEVER are. If they were, than Jackson '09 would have been a lock as a starter with his garbage-time stats.

    And MY response was that virtually every HC in the NFL agrees with us that Jackson simply isn't a very good QB.

    take a moment....you'll get there....

    Caine

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by caine View Post
    mean basketball player though....or so i'm told

    classic!!!!

  4. #124
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    I get where you're going...I just don't AGREE.
    Got it.

    I like you Caine. Didn't mean anything towards you personally, despite originally quoting your comment. Just sharing an observation. The condescension in my posts is similar to how I talk to my friends when we're shooting the sh*t over a beer.

    But look who I'm talking to. You already know how to deal with me.
    Last edited by C Mac D; 09-08-2012 at 03:16 AM.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    I get where you're going...I just don't AGREE.

    1: Jackson didn't get beat up on as badly as Singer makes it out. Not in year 2. Not until the carousel of terrible QB's began and there was NO APPRECIABLE DIFFERENCE between any of them. The following year, he failed to outplay Gus Frerotte. But those of us who were clamoring for change - those of us who were clearly stating our opposition to continuing the Jackson project - we were all labeled "haters"...despite being RIGHT.
    Caine
    I think you get where he's going, you just don't remember.

    If anything, Jackson got beat up worse. Go ahead & ask Webby how many Jackson bashing threads were deleted just this year.

    Plenty of them were started in 2007 starting with game 1, not including those started in 2006 after we lost to GB.

    There were threads started & or posts made bashing him....

    ...after his first INT. How many threads were started bashing Ponder for any of his 13 INT's?

    ...for his accuracy because it was less than the apparently acceptable 60%. How many threads were started/posts made bashing Ponder for any of his 7 performances of under 60%?

    ...for a bad throw that was off target. How many threads were started bashing Ponder for any of his off target throws?

    ...for being injury prone. How many threads were started bashing Ponder after he got knocked out of his second game?

    ...for sliding head first instead of feet first? How many threads/posts were started bashing Ponder after he repeatedly slid head first?

    ...for inconsistency. Remember the graphs that were made showing Jackson's inconsistency? How many threads were started/posts made bashing Ponder for his inconsistency?

    ...for not having a games with over 300 passing yards. How many threads were started/posts made bashing Ponder for not having a 300 yd game prior to his first one?

    ...for his eyes.

    ...for fumbling a snap. How many threads were started/posts made bashing Ponder when he fumbled a snap?

    ...for a jump pass. I'm not sure if Ponder threw one, but if he did, there wasn't a thread started bashing him for it.

    This may refresh your memory now. There were others, as well as repeats to the ones above.

    They most certainly started in year 2. There were others started in year 1. And no, the bashing didn't start only after a carousel of QB's played. They started before any other QB took the field. As CmacD is referring to, nothing even remotely close took place with as much venom towards Ponder as there was against Jackson so early in their careers.

    In fact, only 1 other QB played prior to the infamous, "Anyone tired of the TJ project" & that was Kelly Holcomb who played 2 games while Jackson was injured.

    Anyone else tired of the TJ project?

    That thread didn't get started after the 2007 season, nor did it get started after the carousel of terrible QB's began, in fact it was started after Jackson had started 4 games that year.

    After the year was said & done, Jackson was 8-4 & the carousel of other QB's that was Holcomb & Bollinger (some carousel) were 0-4. In those latter 4 losses, the offense never mustered more than 1 TD & never scored more than 16 points.

    That's a difference there, whether you choose to agree or not.

    Apparently, AD & the defense must have only showed up when Jackson played.

    There were several people clamoring for change after those 4 games, some even prior to that.

    Sure, they ended up being right, but that was only proven out later after he started several more games. That guess could be made on most of the QB's coming out of college. Only a few pan out. As history has shown, you can't accurately judge a QB based on a few games. Those who feel they can would have dumped a lot a good QB's.

    Hell, many of those who claim they can, can't do the same with Ponder, even after they seen him play in 11 games. They want to see 16 more.

    And that's where they & I agree. Unless the QB's a total basket case, you need to give him ample time behind center. IMO, 12 games behind center is & was not enough. He was up & down just like Ponder is. Jury is still out. Do you believe if we lose the first two games of the season we should bench Ponder? I'll bet most here say no, but that's what we did in 2008.

    We should have, like I said back then, stick with Jackson win or loose all season long & then decide what to do with him at years end. Had we done that, rather then bench him, we would have been done with the TJ project in 2008, rather than keeping him on the roster 2 additional years & been two years into rebuilding a team with younger talent the way it should have been done. Slowly bring them in amongst a veteran team & slowly weed out the older player, rather than come in two years later, cut almost all the older veteran players & throw in a hodge-podge of no name FA players and see who sticks.

    Even if Ponder goes 0-6, we still need to keep him in their playing to see how he will pan out by years end. Knee-jerking QB's in & out of games provides no benefit to the QB's.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Mac D View Post
    Got it.

    I like you Caine. Didn't mean anything towards you personally, despite originally quoting your comment. Just sharing an observation. The condescension in my posts is similar to how I talk to my friends when we're shooting the sh*t over a beer.

    But look who I'm talking to. You already know how to deal with me.
    Didn't take it as an insult...took it more as a playful jab.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    I think you get where he's going, you just don't remember.

    If anything, Jackson got beat up worse. Go ahead & ask Webby how many Jackson bashing threads were deleted just this year.

    Plenty of them were started in 2007 starting with game 1, not including those started in 2006 after we lost to GB.
    Did he DESERVE it? History shows that he did.

    But I'm calling BS on the '06 bashing. No one bashing him his rookie year would have been taken seriously.

    Now, be careful about differentiating between "criticism" and "BASHING". I "CRITICIZED" Jackson early and often - and was RIGHT. I have CRITICIZED Ponder too.

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    There were threads started & or posts made bashing him....
    or "Criticizing"....

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    ...after his first INT. How many threads were started bashing Ponder for any of his 13 INT's?
    Pull up the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    ...for his accuracy because it was less than the apparently acceptable 60%. How many threads were started/posts made bashing Ponder for any of his 7 performances of under 60%?
    Jackson's lack of accuracy was well documented. It wasn't a question of simply not connecting with receivers, it was throws that were WAY behind or WAY overhead or at their feet - and it was a LOT of throws.

    ...sort of like how McNabb got beat up for the same thing.

    Ponder doesn't have those same issues, therefore he doesn't get beat up for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    ...for a bad throw that was off target. How many threads were started bashing Ponder for any of his off target throws?
    Again, Jackson was off target a LOT, Ponder far less so.

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    ...for being injury prone. How many threads were started bashing Ponder after he got knocked out of his second game?
    Jackson was knocked out of MULTIPLE games in year 2. And was held out under dubious pretenses.

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    ...for sliding head first instead of feet first? How many threads/posts were started bashing Ponder after he repeatedly slid head first?
    Show me the thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    ...for inconsistency. Remember the graphs that were made showing Jackson's inconsistency? How many threads were started/posts made bashing Ponder for his inconsistency?
    Ponder hasn't been inconsistent to the extent Jackson has. But feel free to post a graph about it if it means that much to you....

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    ...for not having a games with over 300 passing yards. How many threads were started/posts made bashing Ponder for not having a 300 yd game prior to his first one?
    IIRC, Jackson's FIRST 300+ yard game was in 2011. It only took him FIVE YEARS to get one. And he's had exactly ONE...

    Yup...completely undeserved criticism there. I apologize to Tarvaris and all the Apologists for picking on him about that....

    FYI, POnder got HIS first 300+ yard game in game 7. Four YEARS earlier than Jackson did...

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    ...for his eyes.
    WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    ...for fumbling a snap. How many threads were started/posts made bashing Ponder when he fumbled a snap?
    Oh, please. He was bashed for that because of EVRYTHING ELSE as well....

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    ...for a jump pass. I'm not sure if Ponder threw one, but if he did, there wasn't a thread started bashing him for it.
    NO ONE has thrown as stupid of a Jump Pass as Jackson has. That thing is LEGENDARY!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    This may refresh your memory now. There were others, as well as repeats to the ones above.

    They most certainly started in year 2. There were others started in year 1. And no, the bashing didn't start only after a carousel of QB's played. They started before any other QB took the field. As CmacD is referring to, nothing even remotely close took place with as much venom towards Ponder as there was against Jackson so early in their careers.

    In fact, only 1 other QB played prior to the infamous, "Anyone tired of the TJ project" & that was Kelly Holcomb who played 2 games while Jackson was injured.

    Anyone else tired of the TJ project?
    Again, the MAJORITY of those "Criticisms" occurred as a result of Jackson's shit rotten play over all. His complete lack of ability to generate ANY passing offense. And the fact taht Childress GIFTED him the job...TWICE!!!!

    Ponder...not the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    That thread didn't get started after the 2007 season, nor did it get started after the carousel of terrible QB's began, in fact it was started after Jackson had started 4 games that year.
    Jackson didn't start his fourth game that season until WEEK SEVEN!!!! Holcomb played two weeks (including versus GB where Jackson was held out under questionable conditions). That simply poured fuel on the fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    After the year was said & done, Jackson was 8-4 & the carousel of other QB's that was Holcomb & Bollinger (some carousel) were 0-4. In those latter 4 losses, the offense never mustered more than 1 TD & never scored more than 16 points.
    Hmmmmm...Jackson was "8-4" despite throwing only 9 TDs versus 12 Ints.....

    So, who was doing all the WORK?

    You keep making a big production about Ponders TD-INT ratio...Jackson's was WORSE!!!

    Fact is, the only way we won games that season was if AP tore it up and the Defense shut 'em down. When AP got stuffed, we lost. Why? Because JACKSON SUCKED.

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    That's a difference there, whether you choose to agree or not.
    Yes, it is, the DIFFERENCE is that Jackson failed on every imaginable level and the criticisms were heaped on because he failed to improve.

    Ponder has shown more promise, more potential, and has LEAD the team. AP and the Defense have not "bailed him out" or "carried" him as they did Jackson because AP was out and the "D" sucked.

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Apparently, AD & the defense must have only showed up when Jackson played.
    Pretty much.

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    There were several people clamoring for change after those 4 games, some even prior to that.

    Sure, they ended up being right, but that was only proven out later after he started several more games. That guess could be made on most of the QB's coming out of college. Only a few pan out. As history has shown, you can't accurately judge a QB based on a few games. Those who feel they can would have dumped a lot a good QB's.
    You lost when you said, "Sure, they ended up being right". It wasn't a guess, Steve. It was an observation made by watching the performance of the player in question and gauging his progress - or, in Jackson's case, his lack thereof.

    We were RIGHT. You were Wrong. It doesn't matter that it only took most of us a handful of games to realize that Chiller had screwed the pooch, and that Jackson wasn't going to be what Chiller claimed.

    Actually, he was. Chiller claimed he was the next Donovan McNabb...and he sucks just as bad.


    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Hell, many of those who claim they can, can't do the same with Ponder, even after they seen him play in 11 games. They want to see 16 more.
    Not 16 more. We want to see what he's done to progress. We want to see if he's improved his week areas. Jackson never did. If Ponder does, he'll win the fan base over...something Jackson couldn't do because he SUCKED.

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    And that's where they & I agree. Unless the QB's a total basket case, you need to give him ample time behind center. IMO, 12 games behind center is & was not enough. He was up & down just like Ponder is. Jury is still out. Do you believe if we lose the first two games of the season we should bench Ponder? I'll bet most here say no, but that's what we did in 2008.
    It has very little to do with the NUMBER of games, and far more to do with the progression the QB makes through those games. Jackson looked the same in '07 as he did in '06. He was TERRIBLE. He came back from "injury" in '07 and it was MORE OF THE SAME. He NEVER got appreciably better.

    NEVER.

    Now, we wait to see if Ponder has put the pieces together and is ready to become a real NFL QB.

    If so, yay, we have a piece of the puzzle. If not, we will criticize his play as well. Just like we did to Jackson, to Culpepper, to Mcnabb, to Holcomb, to Rosenfels, to.....every QB that isn't here anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    We should have, like I said back then, stick with Jackson win or loose all season long & then decide what to do with him at years end. Had we done that, rather then bench him, we would have been done with the TJ project in 2008, rather than keeping him on the roster 2 additional years & been two years into rebuilding a team with younger talent the way it should have been done. Slowly bring them in amongst a veteran team & slowly weed out the older player, rather than come in two years later, cut almost all the older veteran players & throw in a hodge-podge of no name FA players and see who sticks.
    Again, there was little point in sticking with him. He didn't PROGRESS...EVER. And, FWIW, we WERE done with Jackson in '08...and '07....but CHILDRESS kept saying Jackson was the guy.

    Childress set the stage for this atrocity we call a team. He screwed us harder than Red "molests marsupials" McCombs did. One of the ways he screwed us was by STAYING WITH JACKSON.

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Even if Ponder goes 0-6, we still need to keep him in their playing to see how he will pan out by years end. Knee-jerking QB's in & out of games provides no benefit to the QB's.
    Only if he goes 0-6 despite playing well PERSONALLY. If HE is why we go 0-6, then we pull the plug and give someone else a shot.

    Caine

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    What's "Funny" is how virtually every HC in the League appears to agree with us.

    Just sayin'...

    Caine
    You mean the coaches that are keeping him in the league by signing him to contract, making him a starter or trading for him and making him their backup.

    Hmmmm, doesn't that kindof differ from your stance when we opted to let him go in that you said he would never make it onto a roster or let a lone be a starter in the NFL.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12purplepride28 View Post
    Woah, he'll be 2nd in a couple weeks!? Looks like we all owe you beer Marty
    LOL, well played my friend.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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