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  1. #201
    singersp's Avatar
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    Re: T-Jack vs Whitehurst

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1104305
    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1104275
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1104203
    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1104159
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1104141
    Quote Originally Posted by "Tad7" #1104113
    My bold prediction for tonight's pre=season game:


    If T-Jack sucks:

    Jackson supporters will say "it's just pre-season"

    People who don't like Jackson will say "told you"


    If T-Jack plays well:

    Jackson supporters will say "told you"

    People who don't like Jackson will say "it's just pre-season"

    Regardless, it IS preseason. Superstar or suck-a-saurus, it's preseason. It means nothing.

    There is no, "I told you so" waiting here...regardless of the outcome.


    Caine
    I was never big on preseason games meaning much, regardless of who's QBing.

    But I believe you did. Remember the article that came out a few months back touting that Sage was screwed & he should have been the #2 QB because he appeared to do better than TJ in the 2010 preseason games?

    You were quite vocal about that as were others claiming that Sage did get screwed over based on those games. Those preseason games.

    No mention was made as to how they performed all offseason in TC & factoring that into the decision.

    You also had this to say;

    As for preseason '09 - Look again.

    Game 1 - Sage looked a LOT better than Jackson did.
    Game 2 - Favre showed up, Jackson played well but Sage didn't get to play. Why not?
    Game 3 - Favre played most of the game. Sage and Jackson did nothing really.
    Game 4 - Jackson played a little early, Sage played late. Sage had a pick, Jackson a TD in a losing effort. But Jackson's TD came after a fumble recovery on Dallas' 36 - a chip shot. And he led a scoring drive for another TD after an INT gave us the ball on Dallas' 25. His actual DRIVES, ones that started on our side of the 50, ended in 3-n-outs.

    So, the TRUTH is that Jackson really didn't do any better than Sage - and. as I said before, an argument can be made that Sage was screwed by Chiller so Jackson could hold the #2 spot.

    So, contrary to your last statement, I don't think that "most" agree with anything you concluded. In fact, I think that the facts speak pretty convincingly that the opposite is actually true.

    Caine
    Again, based solely on preseason games, neglecting to factor in all of the offseason.
    Please, stop trying to prove a "You changed your stance" point here... there isn't one.

    When I compared Jackson and Rosenfels, it was based upon the available body of work - Preseason. Further, I based those assessments upon preseason for BOTH QB's. In short, I used an equal measuring stick for each player to draw a conclusion.

    And, based upon EQUAL MEASURING STICKS, Rosenfels DID get screwed. He out performed Jackson - on an EQUAL stage - yet Jackson was slotted into the #2 position.

    I typically ignore preseason. No one is really showing anything, and it's glorified practice. That means that I'm not putting a whole lot of stock in what Jackson shows - or doesn't show - right now. But, if I were to compare him to Whitehurst (in the SAME setting), that would be a VALID comparison.

    Again, I am not trying to compare apples and oranges if I use the same grading rubric for each player.

    Caine
    That's my point exactly. Doesn't matter if you grading them on what you consider an equal stage. You're putting stock into preseason games which you say you typically don't. Which is it?

    Also, yes you may have looked at the body of work, but didn't look at the amount of work. Sage had considerable more playing time than TJ did.

    Your also ignoring the fact that Sage also played against scrubs so far down the depth chart, they were almost suiting up fans.

    Sage didn't get screwed here. The depth chart isn't based only on their time spent in preseason games. What string they played with & against also comes into play as well as how well they perform throughout TC & all practices they have leading up to the start of the season.
    Wow, now you're grasping at straws to get a "Gotcha!!" victory?

    I don't put much stock in preseason - never have, never will.

    HOWEVER, when making a decision on which of 2 players at the same position will be the better candidate for leading your team, you use what you have available. All we had was preseason.

    While that isn't my optimal choice, I play with the cards I'm dealt.

    Take a good look back at the Preseason of '09.

    In game 1, Sage played in the 1st quarter - versus 1st string guys. Jackson played 2nd-3rd. Sage CLEARLY posted better numbers and had a solid performance, whereas Jackson struggled to make anything happen.

    Game 2, FAVRE SHOWS UP - Jackson plays the entire 2nd and 3rd quarters, playing pretty well - but Rosenfels gets ZERO field time.

    Game 3 - both QB's play a series in the 4th - not much to say about either.

    Game 4: Jackson plays in the 1st and 2nd quarters - mostly handing off - while Sage gets the 2nd and 3rd quarters. Despite an INT, these are AGAIN hard to say that one is clearly better than the other.

    HOWEVER, Jackson is placed at #2. Jackson was given more reps DESPITE a poorer on field performance than Sage in the 1st game. AND, Jackson was never really tested after game 2.

    Yes, Singer, Sage got screwed. He never really had a shot as Chiller had already decided that Jackson was his boy. Chiller spoon fed Jackson.

    Sure, Jackson played well versus KC - but Sage NEVER PLAYED. We have no idea how Sage would have fared in that game because Chiller never gave him a shot.

    So, try and spin this any way you want, but Jackson got handed his #2 designation DESPITE the fact that a compelling case could have been made for Rosenfels.

    Further, in game 1, in which they both played, Rosenfels played ahead of Jackson - meaning Sage faced the better competition. So if Sage was playing against "scrubs so far down the depth chart, they were almost suiting up fans", then what does that say about Jackson? hmy:

    And this isn't "placing stock in preseason", this is "Making a decision based upon available data". We only have preseason data to use...so that's what I used. Again, not my first choice, but it was all we had at the time. This isn't a case of flip-flopping or changing parameters, as you are trying to turn it into.

    This is a case of judging two players on equal terms and trying to make a decision based upon a side-by-side comparison.

    When I judge Jackson ON HIS OWN this season, it will not be by referencing Preseason numbers. But if I were judging him in comparison to Charlie Whitehurst, it would be, because that would be an equal field.

    Get the difference?

    Caine
    Now take a look at the 2010 preseason. The one the article was about & the most recent debate was about.

    Sage had his shots both years. Whether his playing time was more or less than Jacksons, he still had them. He not only had them in the games you watched, but had them in every practice you didn't see from the OTAs all the way up until week 1 of the regular season.

    He may have gotten screwed in your eyes, based on the few televised preseason games you got to watch, but the coaches don't base all their decisions solely on the televised games you got to watch. They also take into consideration their play during Training Camp & all the practices they have throughout Preseason. These are all things YOU didn't see.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  2. #202
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    Re: T-Jack vs Whitehurst

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1104305
    When I judge Jackson ON HIS OWN this season, it will not be by referencing Preseason numbers.

    Caine
    We all know you won't judge him fairly even if he does manage a good season. (Based on the Seahawks Oline play I witnessed, none of their QB's will. I don't even think Brady could pull it off.)

    Marrdro will never win that bet IYO.

    First off, you said "legitimate" QB. If TJ had a good year you'd still claim he had no competition in camp & was gifted the starting role, ergo no legitimacy.

    2ndly in any game he won, we'd hear once again how the receivers caught balls thrown to them, ergo it was a bailout. If the Seahawks defense happened to stop their opponents from scoring on any drives, you'd once again call that a bailout. If a FG is kicked...bailout! "Bailout" is your way of discrediting anytime Jackson did good. "Bailout" is a term you've used against 1 QB & 1 QB only in all your years on PP.O, even though the things you are calling bailouts have happened to every Vikings starting QB since their existence.

    Sorry Marty, no free beer.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  3. #203
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: T-Jack vs Whitehurst

    Not sure about you but I am ready to forget that other QB and focus on the ones we have on the roster that don't look any better.

  4. #204
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    Re: T-Jack vs Whitehurst

    This is gonna be fun. When the regular season starts though, I am going to start a thread on the bet so that we can actually track the stuff that matters not what happens in a preseason game.

    Anyway, if anyone watched the game this is what they saw......If they choose to really watch what the teams were working on.

    a. Seachickens on Offense.....Didn't have Williams or Rice. Basically took the field with slot recievers and a TE. Not gonna see defenses backing off the line with that crowd.

    b. Seachickens staff was specifically working on the run blocking as they break in two Rooks at RT and RG as well as a new LG and a LT who missed most of last season from ankle injuries.

    In short, the passing game will come.

    On a side note, I can hear Caine and Bleed now....Excuses excuses. LOL. They crack meup.

    On a side side note: How about Rivers and Jackson. Damn I wish we could have landed that cat somehow. That offense is almost game ready my friends. Maybe they will finally get off to a fast start this year. Could be a bad thing for us week one if they are ready.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  5. #205
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: T-Jack vs Whitehurst

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1104347
    This is gonna be fun. When the regular season starts though, I am going to start a thread on the bet so that we can actually track the stuff that matters not what happens in a preseason game.
    Do you promise to keep it going when TJ turns out to be the QB we keep telling you he is? Or will you conveniently forget about it when he fails?

    Anyway, if anyone watched the game this is what they saw......If they choose to really watch what the teams were working on.
    You know us Marty, we only watch football to find a way to make Childress and Jackson look bad. With Brad gone we can focus all our attention on Jackson.

    a. Seachickens on Offense.....Didn't have Williams or Rice. Basically took the field with slot recievers and a TE. Not gonna see defenses backing off the line with that crowd.
    Sorta like the Vikings huh?
    b. Seachickens staff was specifically working on the run blocking as they break in two Rooks at RT and RG as well as a new LG and a LT who missed most of last season from ankle injuries.

    In short, the passing game will come.
    When they finally put in Whitehurst as the QB:P . BTW- Did you notice how much better he did at scanning the field and hitting the WR in stride than your boy TJ? That was good to see.

    On a side note, I can hear Caine and Bleed now....Excuses excuses. LOL. They crack meup.
    Something is cracked alright.:laugh:

    On a side side note: How about Rivers and Jackson. Damn I wish we could have landed that cat somehow. That offense is almost game ready my friends. Maybe they will finally get off to a fast start this year. Could be a bad thing for us week one if they are ready.
    Don't we still have Baskett? :evil:

  6. #206
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: T-Jack vs Whitehurst

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1104352
    Do you promise to keep it going when TJ turns out to be the QB we keep telling you he is? Or will you conveniently forget about it when he fails?
    Yup. You know I don't back down from a discussion.

    You know us Marty, we only watch football to find a way to make Childress and Jackson look bad. With Brad gone we can focus all our attention on Jackson.
    LOL, quit cracking me up. I had to laugh at all the talking heads when they broke the game down. Only one of them pointed out that the WR's weren't in there and that the OL was completely new.

    All the rest kept with the same old weak ass chiche'. He has a chance and didn't capatilize. LOL. Anyone take a look at some of the QB's that have less or about the same yards/reps that TJ had. Wonder if those teams are worried cause the start didn't look as bad as a backup.

    ......snicker.......

    Sorta like the Vikings huh?
    Anyone who watched with an open mind could see what the Vikes (as with all the teams) were working on based on were their staffs and rosters were at.

    The teams returning most of their players and staffs looked great on offense. The ones that didn't, well, they looked like teams installing new schemes.

    Lets not forget, Bevs, TJ and Rice are on the same page, the rest of the offense isn't.

    When they finally put in Whitehurst as the QB:P . BTW- Did you notice how much better he did at scanning the field and hitting the WR in stride than your boy TJ? That was good to see.
    LOL, ya, I guess, but he had time to scan. I wonder what he would have looked like against the ones with no WR's? Probably like the Charlie who sucked bad enough to bring TJ in to start.

    Something is cracked alright.:laugh:
    In the end, its just entertainment. Atleast a few of us look at it that way instead of taking it so damn personal. What happens if TJ sucks? I buy EJ and Caine beers and have fun doing it. Nothing more, nothing less.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  7. #207
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: T-Jack vs Whitehurst

    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1104325
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1104305
    When I judge Jackson ON HIS OWN this season, it will not be by referencing Preseason numbers.

    Caine
    We all know you won't judge him fairly even if he does manage a good season. (Based on the Seahawks Oline play I witnessed, none of their QB's will. I don't even think Brady could pull it off.)

    Marrdro will never win that bet IYO.

    First off, you said "legitimate" QB. If TJ had a good year you'd still claim he had no competition in camp & was gifted the starting role, ergo no legitimacy.

    2ndly in any game he won, we'd hear once again how the receivers caught balls thrown to them, ergo it was a bailout. If the Seahawks defense happened to stop their opponents from scoring on any drives, you'd once again call that a bailout. If a FG is kicked...bailout! "Bailout" is your way of discrediting anytime Jackson did good. "Bailout" is a term you've used against 1 QB & 1 QB only in all your years on PP.O, even though the things you are calling bailouts have happened to every Vikings starting QB since their existence.

    Sorry Marty, no free beer.
    Thank you for having such a low opinion of my personal integrity. I appreciate it.

    For the record, I never used "Bailout" to discredit Jackson doing good, I used it when it was warranted - when Jackson rode someone else's coat tails.

    Let's see, when I started here, Culpepper was the QB...I stated many times that Moss made Culpepper. That's a lot like saying "bailout".

    Then we had Johnson...I flat out stated Johnson sucked in '06. Not sure that I made any excuses for him.

    In '07, I hacked on all the QBs...because they all sucked.

    Then we went with Jackson for a few more games in '08...then Frerotte. Frerotte actually LEAD the team, despite not being noted for spectacular play. Jackson, meanwhile, sucked.

    Then there was Favre in '09...go ahead, tell me who bailed him out?

    Then Favre in '10 - who I said sucked, repeatedly.

    Then Jackson came back -after MONTHS of hype and build up by YOU...and sucked.

    So...where's the smoking gun?

    Bottom line here is that you hitched your wagon to Jackson a long time ago..and I didn't. And you can't seem to get past the fact that you have been fundamentally wrong on that issue for years. Apparently it galls you so badly that you've now sunk to disparaging my character in order to try and prove a (false) point.

    Here's the thing...there are 5 opinions in the world that I give a shit about...and you aren't on that list. If Marrdro has any doubts about my ability to give Jackson a fair shake, I will let him out of the bet right now.

    Further, if I were to pull the douche-move you are claiming I will, don't you think I'll reap it here? Or are you now so far gone that you believe that I have all of PPO under my power? Maybe people agree with me because there's some truth in what I'm saying...

    Caine

  8. #208
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    Re: T-Jack vs Whitehurst

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1104347
    This is gonna be fun. When the regular season starts though, I am going to start a thread on the bet so that we can actually track the stuff that matters not what happens in a preseason game.

    Anyway, if anyone watched the game this is what they saw......If they choose to really watch what the teams were working on.

    a. Seachickens on Offense.....Didn't have Williams or Rice. Basically took the field with slot recievers and a TE. Not gonna see defenses backing off the line with that crowd.

    b. Seachickens staff was specifically working on the run blocking as they break in two Rooks at RT and RG as well as a new LG and a LT who missed most of last season from ankle injuries.

    In short, the passing game will come.

    On a side note, I can hear Caine and Bleed now....Excuses excuses. LOL. They crack meup.

    On a side side note: How about Rivers and Jackson. Damn I wish we could have landed that cat somehow. That offense is almost game ready my friends. Maybe they will finally get off to a fast start this year. Could be a bad thing for us week one if they are ready.
    What are you even talking about? None of the QBs had Rice. You say the passing game will come? Just like it came with us right? Child please. T-Joke sucks. He will always suck. He is not a starter in this league. Period. That has already been proven. The only excuses I heard were you and the other T-Joke lovers. Ahhhh you crack me up. T-JOKE. Reality is a bitch isn't it.

  9. #209
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    Re: T-Jack vs Whitehurst

    MY OPEN PLEA TO EVERY VIKINGS FAN:

    Can we PLEASE stop arguing about a QB who isn't on our team anymore? Holy crap. We have plenty things on the Vikings to argue about right now, let's stop concerning ourselves with a QB who - for whatever reason - did not succeed in purple.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  10. #210
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: T-Jack vs Whitehurst

    Quote Originally Posted by "marstc09" #1104439
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1104347
    This is gonna be fun. When the regular season starts though, I am going to start a thread on the bet so that we can actually track the stuff that matters not what happens in a preseason game.

    Anyway, if anyone watched the game this is what they saw......If they choose to really watch what the teams were working on.

    a. Seachickens on Offense.....Didn't have Williams or Rice. Basically took the field with slot recievers and a TE. Not gonna see defenses backing off the line with that crowd.

    b. Seachickens staff was specifically working on the run blocking as they break in two Rooks at RT and RG as well as a new LG and a LT who missed most of last season from ankle injuries.

    In short, the passing game will come.

    On a side note, I can hear Caine and Bleed now....Excuses excuses. LOL. They crack meup.

    On a side side note: How about Rivers and Jackson. Damn I wish we could have landed that cat somehow. That offense is almost game ready my friends. Maybe they will finally get off to a fast start this year. Could be a bad thing for us week one if they are ready.
    What are you even talking about? None of the QBs had Rice. You say the passing game will come? Just like it came with us right? Child please. T-Joke sucks. He will always suck. He is not a starter in this league. Period. That has already been proven. The only excuses I heard were you and the other T-Joke lovers. Ahhhh you crack me up. T-JOKE. Reality is a bitch isn't it.
    Such nastiness. Time will tell my friend, time will tell.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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