Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 32
  1. #21
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    43,909

    Re: Stick to the SYSTEM or Adapt to the TALENT?

    "sleepagent" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "MaxVike" wrote:
    "sleepagent" wrote:
    I was down in DC late last week having dinner with a friend . . . who happens to be an EAGLES fan.


    Obviously the topic of football came up, and I shared with him the extreme displeasure a lot of Vikings fans have with BC being resistant to make adjustments according to the players . . . and not his system.

    He told me that ANDY REID is the same way, and he's probably using what he learned in Philadelphia as a basis for his system.
    Implement a system and make the players conform / learn it.

    Now that lead to another conversation over which is better . . . stick to the system OR adapt to the talent.

    What does everyone here think??

    Sleep, I LIVE in Delaware...all of my friends are Eagles fans.
    They are all chirping about Reid and are saying 'I told you so' about Childress being stubborn and quirky.
    Thanks for bringing a relevant, timely topic.

    I say it's a hybrid...in other words, you adapt your system to the talent you have.
    Not really a cop-out, I'll try to illustrate my point.
    Everyone knows the WCO (or, whatever it is the Vikes are running), has hundreds of plays.
    Callahan, at Nebraska, overwhelmed his first QB with the complexity of his offense (the same WCO that Gannon set the percent complete NFL record running), and cut it back to run only 30-40% of the plays.
    That's college, however, Montana didn't have immediate success with the entire playbook...it took him time to learn.
    Ditto for McNabb and the aforementioned Gannon.
    As they became more comfortable in the offense, the playbook was expanded and catered to the QB.
    Until then, they were charged to execute the plays within their skill set as they came up the curve.
    I was priveledged enough to speak to one of the QBs mentioned above about this very topic prior to the season.
    Another point he made was that, the "script" that Walsh, Gruden, Reid, and others have deployed is designed to set up the opponents such that the offense can fully exploit its strengths and the defenses weaknesses...it is also meant to capitalize on the QB's 'best plays' from the prior week's practice.

    The Vikes trouble is that they don't yet have a QB who can operate the offense efficiently enough to win.
    I think Childress has scaled the offense back so much that we haven't even seen 30% of the plays...because we don't have a capable QB.
    Our receivers and RBs have enough talent to run the WCO.
    Not sure if our O-linemen are up to the zone blocking task...I don't know enough about that; I've read some criticism to that effect.
    Very nice.
    I should have read your post before I replied to the originator of the thread.

    Do you think that TJ will come around?
    Out of breath already Marrdro??

    ;D
    No.
    I have nothing to add to that one. I agree with everything especially the comment about the playbook.
    That stuff is lost an alot of people.


    I said it once and got flamed sprayed last year.
    Sucks to be a new guy on here sometimes.
    ;D
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #22
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
    Purple Floyd is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    16,646
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Stick to the SYSTEM or Adapt to the TALENT?

    I have said it before and I will say it again. You can have any system you want, but you need to be flexible with it and taylor it to your personnel. In this day and age with free agency and injuries you really never have a shot at getting the exact players to fit a finite scheme through the whole depth chart so you really need to be able to adjust accordingly. The one thing you need is players who are smart enough to know what they have to do and talented enough to do it.



    Now, asking what I would do is easy

    I would bring back the blocking scheme that we had before and run it 90 percent of the time to start out. Then I would slowly try to work in plays that had the zone blocking set and slowly convert it over as the line gets more proficient. If,in those 10 percent of plays, the line fails to grasp the concept, then I would decide to either scrap the zone part or get rid of the guys,no matter who they are,who are having issues in the offseason and bring in guys who can do it.

    As far as the QB, I would have them rolling out on almost every play and use play action heavily. By moving the QB around you can help the defense by giving them the opportunity to move the defender laterally away from the QB,whereas if the QB just drops straight back and a lineman gets beat, they just collapse the pocket and there is a sack. Also, by keeping the QB moving, it will buy time for the wr's to get open and for the TE and RB to find holes in the coverage for screen passes if the WR's are covered.

    I would keep the TE in and have him help to block the strong side rusher for a second to give the QB time to roll out and then release him into the flat. The RB would be responsible for assisting on the weak side for a second and then dashing to the weak side gap for an outlet pass and to keep a linebacker honest and away from blitzing.

    For the receivers I would be doing many more rub routes and curls that we are completing at this time. I would use Williamson on crossing routes to take advantage of his speed and ability to get separation after the catch if it actually happens and Rice for the slants and curls where he can use his jumping ability and hands to move the chains.

    I would use Taylor more in the slot also like NO used Bush. He is shifty enough to create some mismatches and he is better than our 3rd WR so we should find a way to get him on the field.

    The full back needs to be more involved in blocking too,especially in passing situations.

    As far as the QB goes, I really haven't seen TJ do enough of the WCO type of things under pressure to tell whether he will be able to adapt but my gut feeling is he is a hard worker with a huge arm, but his build is so thick that I don't see his mechanics geared well to the quick hitting timing plays so if he has trouble with them, I would have him as I said above just roll out and hit the open guy when he gets clear of the defender, That is not KAO, but it does work and I think he fits it better. I would also go deep 4 times in the first half, including one shot on the first series to keep the defenders. If he does have a big gun there is no reason to waste it plinking.


  3. #23
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    43,909

    Re: Stick to the SYSTEM or Adapt to the TALENT?

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    I have said it before and I will say it again. You can have any system you want, but you need to be flexible with it and taylor it to your personnel. In this day and age with free agency and injuries you really never have a shot at getting the exact players to fit a finite scheme through the whole depth chart so you really need to be able to adjust accordingly. The one thing you need is players who are smart enough to know what they have to do and talented enough to do it.



    Now, asking what I would do is easy

    I would bring back the blocking scheme that we had before and run it 90 percent of the time to start out. Then I would slowly try to work in plays that had the zone blocking set and slowly convert it over as the line gets more proficient. If,in those 10 percent of plays, the line fails to grasp the concept, then I would decide to either scrap the zone part or get rid of the guys,no matter who they are,who are having issues in the offseason and bring in guys who can do it.

    As far as the QB, I would have them rolling out on almost every play and use play action heavily. By moving the QB around you can help the defense by giving them the opportunity to move the defender laterally away from the QB,whereas if the QB just drops straight back and a lineman gets beat, they just collapse the pocket and there is a sack. Also, by keeping the QB moving, it will buy time for the wr's to get open and for the TE and RB to find holes in the coverage for screen passes if the WR's are covered.

    I would keep the TE in and have him help to block the strong side rusher for a second to give the QB time to roll out and then release him into the flat. The RB would be responsible for assisting on the weak side for a second and then dashing to the weak side gap for an outlet pass and to keep a linebacker honest and away from blitzing.

    For the receivers I would be doing many more rub routes and curls that we are completing at this time. I would use Williamson on crossing routes to take advantage of his speed and ability to get separation after the catch if it actually happens and Rice for the slants and curls where he can use his jumping ability and hands to move the chains.

    I would use Taylor more in the slot also like NO used Bush. He is shifty enough to create some mismatches and he is better than our 3rd WR so we should find a way to get him on the field.

    The full back needs to be more involved in blocking too,especially in passing situations.

    As far as the QB goes, I really haven't seen TJ do enough of the WCO type of things under pressure to tell whether he will be able to adapt but my gut feeling is he is a hard worker with a huge arm, but his build is so thick that I don't see his mechanics geared well to the quick hitting timing plays so if he has trouble with them, I would have him as I said above just roll out and hit the open guy when he gets clear of the defender, That is not KAO, but it does work and I think he fits it better. I would also go deep 4 times in the first half, including one shot on the first series to keep the defenders. If he does have a big gun there is no reason to waste it plinking.
    Very nice my friend. ;D

    How much of the stuff you say we should be doing aren't we doing?

    I for one think we are trying to do most of it, however, the OL play seems to be limiting some of it.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #24
    PurplePackerEater is offline Ring of Fame
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    3,738

    Re: Stick to the SYSTEM or Adapt to the TALENT?

    Personally, if I were a Head Coach, I'd adapt until I had the players in place that I need to run my Offense the way I want. Why look incompetant in the mean time?

    But, I'm NOT a coach, so it's up to Childress to look like the fool.

  5. #25
    MaxVike's Avatar
    MaxVike is offline Team Alumni
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    2,542

    Re: Stick to the SYSTEM or Adapt to the TALENT?

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    [quote]
    "sleepagent" wrote:
    [quote]
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "MaxVike" wrote:
    "sleepagent" wrote:
    I was down in DC late last week having dinner with a friend . . . who happens to be an EAGLES fan.


    Obviously the topic of football came up, and I shared with him the extreme displeasure a lot of Vikings fans have with BC being resistant to make adjustments according to the players . . . and not his system.

    He told me that ANDY REID is the same way, and he's probably using what he learned in Philadelphia as a basis for his system.
    Implement a system and make the players conform / learn it.

    Now that lead to another conversation over which is better . . . stick to the system OR adapt to the talent.

    What does everyone here think??

    Sleep, I LIVE in Delaware...all of my friends are Eagles fans.
    They are all chirping about Reid and are saying 'I told you so' about Childress being stubborn and quirky.
    Thanks for bringing a relevant, timely topic.

    I say it's a hybrid...in other words, you adapt your system to the talent you have.
    Not really a cop-out, I'll try to illustrate my point.
    Everyone knows the WCO (or, whatever it is the Vikes are running), has hundreds of plays.
    Callahan, at Nebraska, overwhelmed his first QB with the complexity of his offense (the same WCO that Gannon set the percent complete NFL record running), and cut it back to run only 30-40% of the plays.
    That's college, however, Montana didn't have immediate success with the entire playbook...it took him time to learn.
    Ditto for McNabb and the aforementioned Gannon.
    As they became more comfortable in the offense, the playbook was expanded and catered to the QB.
    Until then, they were charged to execute the plays within their skill set as they came up the curve.
    I was priveledged enough to speak to one of the QBs mentioned above about this very topic prior to the season.
    Another point he made was that, the "script" that Walsh, Gruden, Reid, and others have deployed is designed to set up the opponents such that the offense can fully exploit its strengths and the defenses weaknesses...it is also meant to capitalize on the QB's 'best plays' from the prior week's practice.

    The Vikes trouble is that they don't yet have a QB who can operate the offense efficiently enough to win.
    I think Childress has scaled the offense back so much that we haven't even seen 30% of the plays...because we don't have a capable QB.
    Our receivers and RBs have enough talent to run the WCO.
    Not sure if our O-linemen are up to the zone blocking task...I don't know enough about that; I've read some criticism to that effect.
    Very nice.
    I should have read your post before I replied to the originator of the thread.

    Do you think that TJ will come around?
    Not to give a non answer, but, it's way too early to judge based on performance.
    So, then we get into opinions and hunches.
    So, here goes, in my opinion, I am very concerned about his accuracy.
    He's a good kid, humble, and a hard worker.
    I'm also concerned about how he might recover from going 1-15, or 2-14, or 3-13 in his fist 16 games (2 last year and 14 this year).
    I think, given the bed we've made, though, you've got to see if he can do it...so, stick him in there and let's see what he's got.
    I completely agree with you, Childress & Co have brought in players who can execute his system, although, he has alot invested in TJack; more than I would I'm pretty sure.
    Time will tell.
    I think we will be bringing in an accomplished veteran next year.
    This team is ready to win big time next year and beyond IMO.

    Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent
    ----------------------------------------------
    As a matter of fact, I do know

  6. #26
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
    Purple Floyd is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    16,646
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Stick to the SYSTEM or Adapt to the TALENT?

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    I have said it before and I will say it again. You can have any system you want, but you need to be flexible with it and taylor it to your personnel. In this day and age with free agency and injuries you really never have a shot at getting the exact players to fit a finite scheme through the whole depth chart so you really need to be able to adjust accordingly. The one thing you need is players who are smart enough to know what they have to do and talented enough to do it.



    Now, asking what I would do is easy

    I would bring back the blocking scheme that we had before and run it 90 percent of the time to start out. Then I would slowly try to work in plays that had the zone blocking set and slowly convert it over as the line gets more proficient. If,in those 10 percent of plays, the line fails to grasp the concept, then I would decide to either scrap the zone part or get rid of the guys,no matter who they are,who are having issues in the offseason and bring in guys who can do it.

    As far as the QB, I would have them rolling out on almost every play and use play action heavily. By moving the QB around you can help the defense by giving them the opportunity to move the defender laterally away from the QB,whereas if the QB just drops straight back and a lineman gets beat, they just collapse the pocket and there is a sack. Also, by keeping the QB moving, it will buy time for the wr's to get open and for the TE and RB to find holes in the coverage for screen passes if the WR's are covered.

    I would keep the TE in and have him help to block the strong side rusher for a second to give the QB time to roll out and then release him into the flat. The RB would be responsible for assisting on the weak side for a second and then dashing to the weak side gap for an outlet pass and to keep a linebacker honest and away from blitzing.

    For the receivers I would be doing many more rub routes and curls that we are completing at this time. I would use Williamson on crossing routes to take advantage of his speed and ability to get separation after the catch if it actually happens and Rice for the slants and curls where he can use his jumping ability and hands to move the chains.

    I would use Taylor more in the slot also like NO used Bush. He is shifty enough to create some mismatches and he is better than our 3rd WR so we should find a way to get him on the field.

    The full back needs to be more involved in blocking too,especially in passing situations.

    As far as the QB goes, I really haven't seen TJ do enough of the WCO type of things under pressure to tell whether he will be able to adapt but my gut feeling is he is a hard worker with a huge arm, but his build is so thick that I don't see his mechanics geared well to the quick hitting timing plays so if he has trouble with them, I would have him as I said above just roll out and hit the open guy when he gets clear of the defender, That is not KAO, but it does work and I think he fits it better. I would also go deep 4 times in the first half, including one shot on the first series to keep the defenders. If he does have a big gun there is no reason to waste it plinking.
    Very nice my friend. ;D

    How much of the stuff you say we should be doing aren't we doing?

    I for one think however, the OL play seems to be limiting some of it.

    I would say we are not rolling out near enough. They did do it a bit more with Kelly last week but they need to do it way way more,not as a token.

    I don't think we are man blocking enough

    Basically all of it.

    I also forgot to say that I would use AP behind either Richardson or Sasser in the I formation as the base set and use it until somebody shut it down.


    As Yoda once said in a galaxy far,far away, do or do not, there is no try ;D

  7. #27
    Prophet's Avatar
    Prophet is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    17,388

    Re: Stick to the SYSTEM or Adapt to the TALENT?

    I like the topic, but, I don't get it.

    Every coach that has ever coached the game at the NFL level or that will ever coach the game at the NFL level has a system.
    They draft and pick up free agents that are based on their system.
    Do they adapt?
    Of course they do.
    If someone is available in the draft that isn't ideal for the system they may grab him on a best available type deal.
    To think, even for a second, that an NFL coach does not adapt is insanity.
    Someone doesn't go through the ranks and become an NFL caliber HC by being a moron that blindly draws plays in the sand.
    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  8. #28
    NodakPaul's Avatar
    NodakPaul is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    West Fargo, ND
    Posts
    17,601
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Stick to the SYSTEM or Adapt to the TALENT?

    "Prophet" wrote:
    I like the topic, but, I don't get it.

    Every coach that has ever coached the game at the NFL level or that will ever coach the game at the NFL level has a system.
    They draft and pick up free agents that are based on their system.
    Do they adapt?
    Of course they do.
    If someone is available in the draft that isn't ideal for the system they may grab him on a best available type deal.
    To think, even for a second, that an NFL coach does not adapt is insanity.
    Someone doesn't go through the ranks and become an NFL caliber HC by being a silly guy that blindly draws plays in the sand.
    There should be a "both" option...
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  9. #29
    davike's Avatar
    davike is offline Team Alumni
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    2,750

    Re: Stick to the SYSTEM or Adapt to the TALENT?

    "Prophet" wrote:
    I like the topic, but, I don't get it.

    Every coach that has ever coached the game at the NFL level or that will ever coach the game at the NFL level has a system.
    They draft and pick up free agents that are based on their system.
    Do they adapt?
    Of course they do.
    If someone is available in the draft that isn't ideal for the system they may grab him on a best available type deal.
    To think, even for a second, that an NFL coach does not adapt is insanity.
    Someone doesn't go through the ranks and become an NFL caliber HC by being a silly guy that blindly draws plays in the sand.
    Not Childress. By listening to some on here, you would think that almost anyone could take over for him and the Vikings would magically start winning games. Oh and also they would be much happier, at least until the new coaches first loss, then they would want a new guy.

    Thanks Josdin00 for the sig!

  10. #30
    sleepagent is offline Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,505

    Re: Stick to the SYSTEM or Adapt to the TALENT?

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Prophet" wrote:
    I like the topic, but, I don't get it.

    Every coach that has ever coached the game at the NFL level or that will ever coach the game at the NFL level has a system.
    They draft and pick up free agents that are based on their system.
    Do they adapt?
    Of course they do.
    If someone is available in the draft that isn't ideal for the system they may grab him on a best available type deal.
    To think, even for a second, that an NFL coach does not adapt is insanity.
    Someone doesn't go through the ranks and become an NFL caliber HC by being a silly guy that blindly draws plays in the sand.
    There should be a "both" option...
    I initially had a "both" option as #3, but changed it to "doesn't matter".
    I thought we'd have a more spirited thread with folks having to pick one of the two options . . . otherwise virtually everyone would've picked "both".

    I live outside MN and live in NFC East land so I don't get to see many Viking games anymore.
    My opinion's are based upon football knowledge in general, and what I read here and on "sports" sites.

    I am not a BC hater, but I would like to see him adapt to the talent more than sticking to the system (which he appears to be doing more of).
    Hopefully things begin to click soon . . . as it is hard enough living in "enemy territory" with a Viking's team that can't find the end zone.

    "No Greater Friend . . . No Worse Enemy. U.S. MARINES"
    "FIND YOUR PASSION AND MAKE IT HAPPEN!"
    "SUCCESS LOOKS EASY TO THOSE THAT WEREN'T THERE WHEN IT WAS BEING ACHIEVED!"

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Henne, getting stick from all angles!
    By Johnson14 in forum General NFL Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-17-2011, 06:47 PM
  2. Women stick together against cheating lover
    By Zeus in forum The Clubhouse
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-04-2009, 12:43 PM
  3. Stick Figures in Peril
    By BadlandsVikings in forum The Clubhouse
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-12-2007, 04:46 PM
  4. Lions plan to stick with Harrington
    By singersp in forum General NFL Discussion
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 02-23-2006, 06:14 AM
  5. Stick a fork in the pack!!
    By skogs02 in forum Vikings Fan Forum
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 10-12-2004, 02:02 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •