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  1. #21
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Stand up if you’re the best team in the NFC North (not so fast, Bears and Lions)

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "ejmat" wrote:
    I want to know how he determined the Packers had a solid off season.
    Favre retired.
    I'm not sure what FAs they brought in.
    I think they had a decent draft but that's always a question mark.
    I'd like to find out how he made that determination.
    I think Green Bay had a good offseason because they didn't bring in a lot of new people.
    Outside losing Fav-re, they are pretty much the same team that went 13-3 last season.
    And while Rodgers is no Fav-re, they had the advantage of grooming him for several years before thrusting him in the spotlight.

    Sometimes your offseason is measured not by how many new players you bring in, but by how many you didn't.
    That's all well and good...but their main rival for the division crown (VIKINGS) DID bring in a ton of new talent, namely someone (Allen) who can get to the one player that they DID replace.
    Ask Tom Brady about how much a constant pass rush can disrupt a game plan. Watch the difference that it makes for the Vikings when they play Green Bay!
    I agree, but the fact that we had a good offseason doesn't change the fact that they did too, albeit for different reasons.
    Okay but I also remember them losing a key defensive lineman.
    The name is at the tip of my tongue but I am having a brain fart.
    I agree they are a good team but how does that make for a SOLID offseason.
    They lost a Hall of Fame QB and a key DL.
    They had a good draft as a said but they are unproven rookies.
    I hardly call that a solid offseason.
    I may call it successful maybe since they didn't lose many players.
    But losing a HOF QB isn't to solid to me.
    JMO.

  2. #22
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    Re: Stand up if you’re the best team in the NFC North (not so fast, Bears and Lions)

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    If I Had to draw my own comparison, it would go like this

    QB- Tie
    RB- Vikings
    FB- Packers
    TE- Packers
    LT- Packers
    LG- Vikings
    C - Vikings
    RG- Vikings
    RT- Packers
    WR1- Packers
    WR2- Packers

    Offense: Packers 6-4-1

    LDE- Packers
    RDE- Vikings
    DT1- Vikings
    DT2- Vikings
    CB1- VIkings
    CB2- Packers
    SLB- Packers
    (can't remember which one Hawk plays, but i'm matching up Hawk and Leber)
    MLB- Vikigns
    WLB- Vikings
    FS
    -
    Vikigns
    SS -

    Vikings

    Defense:
    Vikings 8-3

    P - Vikings
    K - Vikings

    Special Teams: Vikings 2-0

    Coaches

    DC
    -Vikings
    OC
    - Packers
    HC - Packers
    (not a chilly hater, but you need a good coach to make a team that young make a serious run at the superbowl like they did last year)

    Coaches Packers 2-1

    Overall
    VIkings 15-11-1
    Very good breakdown, but to be honest I would give the edge to the Packers in QB, as well as Punting.
    That would make it Vikings 14-13, which sounds about right to me.
    Two very closely matched teams.
    to be honest, i wanted to put Rogers ahead of TJ, but 2 things made me stop.
    a) I would certainly get called on being a TJack hater, as that seems to be the trend here, and b) Although Rogers certainly has upside, as he was once considered the top prospect in that years draft, he is rather unproven.
    At least with TJ, we know what he is capable of, and how he plays, Rogers has played a total of 2 quarters of NFL football.
    For all we know he could pull a Ryan Leaf and come out strong for 2 games, then not throw another TD ever again. (thats what I'm hoping for)
    As of now, TJ has proven he can play (at times), but Rogers upside balances that out, which is why I call for a tie.

  3. #23
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Stand up if you’re the best team in the NFC North (not so fast, Bears and Lions)

    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    If I Had to draw my own comparison, it would go like this

    QB- Tie
    RB- Vikings
    FB- Packers
    TE- Packers
    LT- Packers
    LG- Vikings
    C - Vikings
    RG- Vikings
    RT- Packers
    WR1- Packers
    WR2- Packers

    Offense: Packers 6-4-1

    LDE- Packers
    RDE- Vikings
    DT1- Vikings
    DT2- Vikings
    CB1- VIkings
    CB2- Packers
    SLB- Packers
    (can't remember which one Hawk plays, but i'm matching up Hawk and Leber)
    MLB- Vikigns
    WLB- Vikings
    FS
    -
    Vikigns
    SS -

    Vikings

    Defense:
    Vikings 8-3

    P - Vikings
    K - Vikings

    Special Teams: Vikings 2-0

    Coaches

    DC
    -Vikings
    OC
    - Packers
    HC - Packers
    (not a chilly hater, but you need a good coach to make a team that young make a serious run at the superbowl like they did last year)

    Coaches Packers 2-1

    Overall
    VIkings 15-11-1
    Very good breakdown, but to be honest I would give the edge to the Packers in QB, as well as Punting.
    That would make it Vikings 14-13, which sounds about right to me.
    Two very closely matched teams.
    to be honest, i wanted to put Rogers ahead of TJ, but 2 things made me stop.
    a) I would certainly get called on being a TJack hater, as that seems to be the trend here, and b) Although Rogers certainly has upside, as he was once considered the top prospect in that years draft, he is rather unproven.
    At least with TJ, we know what he is capable of, and how he plays, Rogers has played a total of 2 quarters of NFL football.
    For all we know he could pull a Ryan Leaf and come out strong for 2 games, then not throw another TD ever again. (thats what I'm hoping for)

    As of now, TJ has proven he can play (at times), but Rogers upside balances that out, which is why I call for a tie.
    Lots of people on here point out flaws in TJ's game (me included) and don't get called a hater.


    Seems to me the only ones that get labled a hater are the ones that don't/won't admit that he did do some good things last year and showed some progress.

    With that said, feel free to point out players flaws (I do with Birk, Sharp, Whinny, McKinnie etc), just be ready to prove your point...... ;D ;D ;D
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #24
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    Re: Stand up if you’re the best team in the NFC North (not so fast, Bears and Lions)

    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    If I Had to draw my own comparison, it would go like this

    QB- Tie
    RB- Vikings
    FB- Packers
    TE- Packers
    LT- Packers
    LG- Vikings
    C - Vikings
    RG- Vikings
    RT- Packers
    WR1- Packers
    WR2- Packers

    Offense: Packers 6-4-1

    LDE- Packers
    RDE- Vikings
    DT1- Vikings
    DT2- Vikings
    CB1- VIkings
    CB2- Packers
    SLB- Packers
    (can't remember which one Hawk plays, but i'm matching up Hawk and Leber)
    MLB- Vikigns
    WLB- Vikings
    FS
    -
    Vikigns
    SS -

    Vikings

    Defense:
    Vikings 8-3

    P - Vikings
    K - Vikings

    Special Teams: Vikings 2-0

    Coaches

    DC
    -Vikings
    OC
    - Packers
    HC - Packers
    (not a chilly hater, but you need a good coach to make a team that young make a serious run at the superbowl like they did last year)

    Coaches Packers 2-1

    Overall
    VIkings 15-11-1
    Very good breakdown, but to be honest I would give the edge to the Packers in QB, as well as Punting.
    That would make it Vikings 14-13, which sounds about right to me.
    Two very closely matched teams.
    to be honest, i wanted to put Rogers ahead of TJ, but 2 things made me stop.
    a) I would certainly get called on being a TJack hater, as that seems to be the trend here, and b) Although Rogers certainly has upside, as he was once considered the top prospect in that years draft, he is rather unproven.
    At least with TJ, we know what he is capable of, and how he plays, Rogers has played a total of 2 quarters of NFL football.
    For all we know he could pull a Ryan Leaf and come out strong for 2 games, then not throw another TD ever again. (thats what I'm hoping for)

    As of now, TJ has proven he can play (at times), but Rogers upside balances that out, which is why I call for a tie.
    The whole "Rodgers is unproven" thing is mostly just rhetoric that we like to throw around here as Vikings fans.
    I look at it this way.
    If I had to bet $1000 on who was going to end the season with better performance stats, then I would choose Rodgers over TJack any day.
    Does that make me a TJack hater?
    No - I think TJack will do good enough for the Vikings to take the NFC North.
    But on individual performance, I think Rodgers will do better.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  5. #25
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    Re: Stand up if you’re the best team in the NFC North (not so fast, Bears and Lions)

    we all thought Romo would do nothing too, but look how that worked?
    I bet if you were to go back and make a bet of who would do better, Leaf or Manning, ther would be many people who lose money, because at the Time, Leaf was conisdered the best prospect in the country.
    How many people here thought that T-Williamson would be huge for us and easilly be better than other division rival recievers like Berrian or Jennings?

    I can't rate someone higher on speculation alone, unless they are truly an incredible player.

    plus, as i already mentioned, I do think Rogers will do better, but by taking a "right now" stance, i call a draw.
    We aren't judging this based on potential, otherwise Rice would be beating Jennings and Griffin would be beating Woodson

  6. #26
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    Re: Stand up if you’re the best team in the NFC North (not so fast, Bears and Lions)

    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    we all thought Romo would do nothing too, but look how that worked?
    I bet if you were to go back and make a bet of who would do better, Leaf or Manning, ther would be many people who lose money, because at the Time, Leaf was conisdered the best prospect in the country.
    How many people here thought that T-Williamson would be huge for us and easilly be better than other division rival recievers like Berrian or Jennings?

    I can't rate someone higher on speculation alone, unless they are truly an incredible player.

    plus, as i already mentioned, I do think Rogers will do better, but by taking a "right now" stance, i call a draw.
    We aren't judging this based on potential, otherwise Rice would be beating Jennings and Griffin would be beating Woodson
    There are obviously exceptions to every rule, but unless you really think that Rodgers and TJack will do about the same this year, then you shouldn't rate them a tie.
    Not having started in any games makes Rodgers more of a risk, to be sure.
    And I would put hi behind a lot of QBs in the NFL for that very reason.
    But proven inconsistency, ala Rex Grossman, is worse.
    If I had to rate the starting QBs right now in the NFC North, it would go Kitna, Rodgers, TJack, Grossman.
    After we 1/4 of the season that could very well change...
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  7. #27
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re: Stand up if you’re the best team in the NFC North (not so fast, Bears and Li

    "V" wrote:
    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "NordicNed" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    [quote author=BleedinPandG link=topic=45932.msg796386#msg796386 date=1214482128]
    Does this guy have any idea what he's talking about?

    At left tackle, things were quite a bit closer in the battle between Chad Clifton (Packers) and Bryant McKinnie (Vikings). Funny thing about these two players: Both are considered to be amongst the best left tackles in the league, yet neither has been voted to a Pro Bowl (although Clifton has gone as an alternate). That doesn’t mean they’re not very good, it’s just something that strikes me as interesting.

    That being the case, I am giving the overall advantage to Clifton because, while both are very good in pass protection, Clifton is a better run blocker.
    McKinnie is a good pass protector but Clifton is a better run blocker?
    McKinnie is lousy at pass protection and a dominating run blocker...

    Also, Herrera did nothing to impress him?
    I think he's off his rocker in terms of analyzing the offensive lines.

    Other then that, the rest of the article wasn't bad.
    I would have to agree.

    Maybe he missed the games were Herrera actually pulled, made his block and still stayed with our RB's going into the endzone.



    I'm going to disagree with his statement that, if TJ goes down and GF has to come in for any long period of time, we are done....This is total bullshit, and it wouldn't suprise me if the Vikings players rallyed around Gus and we went on one hell of a winning streak and yes, I believe in a big game like the SB, Gus's Veteran leadership could even shine thru and lead us to victory.......

    Advantage: Vikings big time.


    Who the hell does GB
    have for a backup?....It sure isn't Fumblepepper, not that he would do them any good either..... ;D
    I don't see how you can see Gus Frerotte any differently than Bollinger, Holcomb, or Johnson at this point in the offseason. All those guys had "veteran leadership" too. Last year, when TJ went down, we didn't rally, we went 0-4. They have the talent to offset our experience, making the QB position a tie.
    I still can't bring myself to call Bollinger a "veteran leader"
    Often, "veteran leaders" would need to both be around for a while, and be capable of producing.
    Bollinger was only around 3 years whe he joined the vikings, so he would still be in the learning phase.

    Holcomb has had some better games, and has been around for a while for a few different teams, so I would consider him more of a leader, but still not who I'd want mentoring my young guys.

    Frerrotte has been around for many years (since 94)
    played for many teams, and has put up some ok numbers in the process.
    There's a reason that he's lasted so long in the league, Its not for his playing ability, but more for his VETERAN LEADERSHIP.
    (minus the headbutting incident, which if anyone could find a video of that would be awesome)
    I see where you're coming from, but I just don't see how Frerotte's veteran leadership will translate to wins on the field. Johnson's didn't. Holcomb's didn't. I hope things are different but I honestle can't find a good reason for doing so. We are better off than we were last year if TJ goes down, but I still don't expect wins, let alone winning streaks, or SB wins, from Gus Frerotte.
    [/quote]

    On the contrary.
    Johnson's veteran leadership translated into a 6 game winning streak, which only ended becase of a narrow defeat by the Steelers (SB champs)
    his 2nd season was a shitshow because he started demanding more money, and didn't want to be playing backup anymore, hence the leadership part was gone.
    A real veteran backup quarterback is supposed to accept his role as #2, and help the #1 with some of the finer points of the positions, such as presnap reads, reading zone/man and other mental aspects that coaches aren't always able to do all the time.
    Bollinger was not a good guy to be doing this, neither was Holcomb.
    Johnson was, untill he started bein a lil biotch, Hopefully Frerotte can do the same.
    He knows that the only way he'll see the field is if someone gets injured, or just shits the bed, and he really isn't expecting to play a whole lot anymore, as he'll be taking on the mentor role.
    If he can help TJ with presnap reads, and his reads while dropping back/determining zone/man coverage, then he is doing his job.

  8. #28
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    Re: Stand up if you’re the best team in the NFC North (not so fast, Bears and Lions)

    Article had flawed logic...

    RB position.
    You say AD wasn't great in the 2nd half because D's keyed on the run, BUT he didn't mention that Grant did well because teams keyed on the pass with Farve at QB.
    Grant won't have that advantage in 2008 and won't see 1000yds.

    WR: Sure the WR's in GB have looked great... why?
    Because they have had one of the greatest QB's throwing to them.
    They will fall to average unless Rodgers surprises everyone.

    Farve made the whole GB offense look good, his quick decision making reduced sacks making the OL look better than they are.
    His ability to read D's and react to blitzes made teams pay for being too aggressive.
    He was also the only guy they started in forever, the WR's and TE's were in perfect sync with him.

    It's rare any team, regardless how good, replaces a QB of Farve's caliber and maintains the same level of success.

    GB will fall just as Denver did when Elway left leaving Griese to go 6-10.

    Comparing Rodgers to Young is foolish
    Before Young was a starter at SF he was:
    * In his 7th year, 4 with SF
    * In SF he threw 324 passes, 59.5% comp, 23TD/6Int, with a 101.6 QB rating before he started a single game

    Compared to Rodgers:
    * 3rd year in GB
    * 59 passes, 55.9% comp, 1TD/1Int, 64 QB rating

    Rodgers may be a good QB in a couple years, but he's barely out of diapers, he's going to struggle big in 2008 and GB will too.
    TJ although he hasn't been stellar has tons more experience than Rodgers.

    The edge should be given to TJ because he's had more playing time, is more insync with the receivers, is a better athlete, and expectations are low.

    Plus, Rodgers is going to get his butt kicked so bad in game 1 that he isn't going to recover.
    I wouldn't be surprised he gets injured in a sandwich between Allen and Edwards, then GB will watch Brohm flame out and will be begging for DC to come play QB.
    [size=12pt]
    Page 148.5 **Doleman 150.5 **Randle 137.5 **Allen 73+
    [/size]

  9. #29
    V-Unit's Avatar
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    Re: Stand up if you’re the best team in the NFC North (not so fast, Bears and Li

    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "NordicNed" wrote:
    [quote author=Marrdro link=topic=45932.msg796388#msg796388 date=1214483403]
    [quote author=BleedinPandG link=topic=45932.msg796386#msg796386 date=1214482128]
    Does this guy have any idea what he's talking about?

    At left tackle, things were quite a bit closer in the battle between Chad Clifton (Packers) and Bryant McKinnie (Vikings). Funny thing about these two players: Both are considered to be amongst the best left tackles in the league, yet neither has been voted to a Pro Bowl (although Clifton has gone as an alternate). That doesn’t mean they’re not very good, it’s just something that strikes me as interesting.

    That being the case, I am giving the overall advantage to Clifton because, while both are very good in pass protection, Clifton is a better run blocker.
    McKinnie is a good pass protector but Clifton is a better run blocker?
    McKinnie is lousy at pass protection and a dominating run blocker...

    Also, Herrera did nothing to impress him?
    I think he's off his rocker in terms of analyzing the offensive lines.

    Other then that, the rest of the article wasn't bad.
    I would have to agree.

    Maybe he missed the games were Herrera actually pulled, made his block and still stayed with our RB's going into the endzone.



    I'm going to disagree with his statement that, if TJ goes down and GF has to come in for any long period of time, we are done....This is total bullshit, and it wouldn't suprise me if the Vikings players rallyed around Gus and we went on one hell of a winning streak and yes, I believe in a big game like the SB, Gus's Veteran leadership could even shine thru and lead us to victory.......

    Advantage: Vikings big time.


    Who the hell does GB
    have for a backup?....It sure isn't Fumblepepper, not that he would do them any good either..... ;D
    I don't see how you can see Gus Frerotte any differently than Bollinger, Holcomb, or Johnson at this point in the offseason. All those guys had "veteran leadership" too. Last year, when TJ went down, we didn't rally, we went 0-4. They have the talent to offset our experience, making the QB position a tie.
    I still can't bring myself to call Bollinger a "veteran leader"
    Often, "veteran leaders" would need to both be around for a while, and be capable of producing.
    Bollinger was only around 3 years whe he joined the vikings, so he would still be in the learning phase.

    Holcomb has had some better games, and has been around for a while for a few different teams, so I would consider him more of a leader, but still not who I'd want mentoring my young guys.

    Frerrotte has been around for many years (since 94)
    played for many teams, and has put up some ok numbers in the process.
    There's a reason that he's lasted so long in the league, Its not for his playing ability, but more for his VETERAN LEADERSHIP.
    (minus the headbutting incident, which if anyone could find a video of that would be awesome)
    I see where you're coming from, but I just don't see how Frerotte's veteran leadership will translate to wins on the field. Johnson's didn't. Holcomb's didn't. I hope things are different but I honestle can't find a good reason for doing so. We are better off than we were last year if TJ goes down, but I still don't expect wins, let alone winning streaks, or SB wins, from Gus Frerotte.
    [/quote]

    On the contrary.
    Johnson's veteran leadership translated into a 6 game winning streak, which only ended becase of a narrow defeat by the Steelers (SB champs)
    his 2nd season was a shitshow because he started demanding more money, and didn't want to be playing backup anymore, hence the leadership part was gone.
    A real veteran backup quarterback is supposed to accept his role as #2, and help the #1 with some of the finer points of the positions, such as presnap reads, reading zone/man and other mental aspects that coaches aren't always able to do all the time.
    Bollinger was not a good guy to be doing this, neither was Holcomb.
    Johnson was, untill he started bein a lil biotch, Hopefully Frerotte can do the same.
    He knows that the only way he'll see the field is if someone gets injured, or just shits the bed, and he really isn't expecting to play a whole lot anymore, as he'll be taking on the mentor role.
    If he can help TJ with presnap reads, and his reads while dropping back/determining zone/man coverage, then he is doing his job.

    [/quote]

    What the hell are you talking about? In 2005 Brad was the backup, and played great in place of Culpepper. In 2006 the Vikings gave him the starting role and he botched it. He didn't want to be playing backup anymore...He wasn't playing backup anymore!!!! How can you accept your role as #2 when the coach names you the starter? Johnson started being a little bitch when we gave him the starting role, not because he wanted it and couldn't have it.

    On the other hand, I somewhat understand that you mean to imply that Frerotte will be a good backup because he accepts the role. Sure he might improve TJ's game, but I still don't see how that makes him a good backup if TJ gets injured. To play devil's advocate: BJ went on a 6-game winning streak in 2005 because he was trying to win the starting role. He played well because of the chip on his shoulder. Once he won the role, he turned to crap. Frerotte has no said chip, and therefore is a great mentor but questionable when actually playing.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  10. #30
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    Re: Stand up if you’re the best team in the NFC North (not so fast, Bears and Li

    "V" wrote:
    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    [quote author=NordicNed link=topic=45932.msg796394#msg796394 date=1214484125]
    [quote author=Marrdro link=topic=45932.msg796388#msg796388 date=1214483403]
    [quote author=BleedinPandG link=topic=45932.msg796386#msg796386 date=1214482128]
    Does this guy have any idea what he's talking about?

    At left tackle, things were quite a bit closer in the battle between Chad Clifton (Packers) and Bryant McKinnie (Vikings). Funny thing about these two players: Both are considered to be amongst the best left tackles in the league, yet neither has been voted to a Pro Bowl (although Clifton has gone as an alternate). That doesn’t mean they’re not very good, it’s just something that strikes me as interesting.

    That being the case, I am giving the overall advantage to Clifton because, while both are very good in pass protection, Clifton is a better run blocker.
    McKinnie is a good pass protector but Clifton is a better run blocker?
    McKinnie is lousy at pass protection and a dominating run blocker...

    Also, Herrera did nothing to impress him?
    I think he's off his rocker in terms of analyzing the offensive lines.

    Other then that, the rest of the article wasn't bad.
    I would have to agree.

    Maybe he missed the games were Herrera actually pulled, made his block and still stayed with our RB's going into the endzone.


    I'm going to disagree with his statement that, if TJ goes down and GF has to come in for any long period of time, we are done....This is total bullshit, and it wouldn't suprise me if the Vikings players rallyed around Gus and we went on one hell of a winning streak and yes, I believe in a big game like the SB, Gus's Veteran leadership could even shine thru and lead us to victory.......
    Advantage: Vikings big time.

    Who the hell does GB
    have for a backup?....It sure isn't Fumblepepper, not that he would do them any good either..... ;D
    I don't see how you can see Gus Frerotte any differently than Bollinger, Holcomb, or Johnson at this point in the offseason. All those guys had "veteran leadership" too. Last year, when TJ went down, we didn't rally, we went 0-4. They have the talent to offset our experience, making the QB position a tie.
    I still can't bring myself to call Bollinger a "veteran leader"
    Often, "veteran leaders" would need to both be around for a while, and be capable of producing.
    Bollinger was only around 3 years whe he joined the vikings, so he would still be in the learning phase.
    Holcomb has had some better games, and has been around for a while for a few different teams, so I would consider him more of a leader, but still not who I'd want mentoring my young guys.

    Frerrotte has been around for many years (since 94)
    played for many teams, and has put up some ok numbers in the process.
    There's a reason that he's lasted so long in the league, Its not for his playing ability, but more for his VETERAN LEADERSHIP.
    (minus the headbutting incident, which if anyone could find a video of that would be awesome)
    I see where you're coming from, but I just don't see how Frerotte's veteran leadership will translate to wins on the field. Johnson's didn't. Holcomb's didn't. I hope things are different but I honestle can't find a good reason for doing so. We are better off than we were last year if TJ goes down, but I still don't expect wins, let alone winning streaks, or SB wins, from Gus Frerotte.
    [/quote]

    On the contrary.
    Johnson's veteran leadership translated into a 6 game winning streak, which only ended becase of a narrow defeat by the Steelers (SB champs)
    his 2nd season was a shitshow because he started demanding more money, and didn't want to be playing backup anymore, hence the leadership part was gone.
    A real veteran backup quarterback is supposed to accept his role as #2, and help the #1 with some of the finer points of the positions, such as presnap reads, reading zone/man and other mental aspects that coaches aren't always able to do all the time.
    Bollinger was not a good guy to be doing this, neither was Holcomb.
    Johnson was, untill he started bein a lil biotch, Hopefully Frerotte can do the same.
    He knows that the only way he'll see the field is if someone gets injured, or just shits the bed, and he really isn't expecting to play a whole lot anymore, as he'll be taking on the mentor role.
    If he can help TJ with presnap reads, and his reads while dropping back/determining zone/man coverage, then he is doing his job.

    [/quote]

    What the hell are you talking about? In 2005 Brad was the backup, and played great in place of Culpepper. In 2006 the Vikings gave him the starting role and he botched it. He didn't want to be playing backup anymore...He wasn't playing backup anymore!!!! How can you accept your role as #2 when the coach names you the starter? Johnson started being a little bitch when we gave him the starting role, not because he wanted it and couldn't have it.

    On the other hand, I somewhat understand that you mean to imply that Frerotte will be a good backup because he accepts the role. Sure he might improve TJ's game, but I still don't see how that makes him a good backup if TJ gets injured. To play devil's advocate: BJ went on a 6-game winning streak in 2005 because he was trying to win the starting role. He played well because of the chip on his shoulder. Once he won the role, he turned to crap. Frerotte has no said chip, and therefore is a great mentor but questionable when actually playing.
    [/quote]

    Once he inherited the KAO he turned to crap

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