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  1. #51
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    Re: Rodgers is better than Favre

    Quote Originally Posted by "dfosterf" #1100453
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1100452
    Quote Originally Posted by "midgensa" #1100450
    This argument is interesting to say the least ... but it is a very tough argument.

    First ... passing numbers in today's game are not even comparable to anything pre-1995 because the rules are made for passers today. Unitas, Namath, Griese, Starr, Dawson, Staubach all would have much better numbers if they played today. Hell, Montana, Marino, Fouts, Elway and probably even Favre would have better numbers as well.

    Second ... the "at this point in his career" argument is really tough as well. Lets be honest, the Packers that Rodgers got handed the reins to had been to the NFC Championship Game just the year before. They are loaded with offensive talent, in particular at WR and TE. I think Rodgers is VERY VERY good. No doubt about it, but he was giving a Mercedes to drive and has managed to not wreck it.

    Favre was not given the same kind of team. I said it BEFORE he was a Vikings QB and I will say it now. Favre is the best thing that EVER happened to the Packers. Better than Lombardi, Starr, Rodgers and Desmond Howard.

    While that team was one of the greats "back in the day" they had completely fallen. They had not been competitive in years and NOBODY wanted to be there. Favre turned all of that around almost by himself.

    Favre had unfortunate luck in that his best years where against super teams like the Cowboys and 49ers, otherwise he would have had probably one or two more rings. He made the Packers an "it" place. You think Reggie White would have had anything to do with Green Bay without No. 4?

    Favre put GB back on the map ... won them a Super Bowl. Broke a shitload of records ... built a Mercedes ... and then watched as the owners of the Mercedes asked him not to drive it anymore, despite having plenty of drive left in him.
    As for comparing to the "all-time" greats. You also have to throw in the shitty Colts team Manning joined. The shittiness of the 49ers team that Montana joined, etc. Rodgers has NEVER played for a shitty team and probably never will. He is definitely part of the reason they are good. I VERY big part. But comparing him to those other guys already is getting a little ahead of yourself.
    Careful, you're making too much sense with points like that.
    I thought it was a good post also.

    Favre himself said that Reggie White was far more impactful than he was in the resurgence of the Packers, so there are at least two people that I know of (Favre and me :P ) that disagree on that point, but that's being picky. B)

    The main reason I made this thread (other than boredom and giving us something to [strike]argue about[/strike] discuss) is that I felt that his 11th ranking in the "top 100 of 2010" by his peers (NFL network show) was low, and I chose this topic rather than a more mundane, "Rodgers was hosed" type thread.

    It seems to be working, except upsetting the sensibilities of those that don't seem especially fond of a discussion unless it dovetails with their preconceived notions of subject matter or somesuch shit. :lol:
    The primary counter-point to your assertion, and one you cannot prove or disprove yet, is that it's too soon to tell. Favre's run is over, and Rodger's isn't. At this time, Favre holds all the records. Favre resurrected your team. Favre has 3 MVP's. And, maybe more importantly, Favre made due with a lot poorer supporting cast.

    To try and crown Rodgers now, despite all of the above, is premature at best, and ludicrous at worst. What if, God forbid, he gets injured this season and his career ends? Is he still the better player?

    Rodgers has a lot more to prove in order to eclipse Favre.

    Caine

  2. #52
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    Re: Rodgers is better than Favre

    Quote Originally Posted by "dfosterf" #1100453
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1100452
    Quote Originally Posted by "midgensa" #1100450
    This argument is interesting to say the least ... but it is a very tough argument.

    First ... passing numbers in today's game are not even comparable to anything pre-1995 because the rules are made for passers today. Unitas, Namath, Griese, Starr, Dawson, Staubach all would have much better numbers if they played today. Hell, Montana, Marino, Fouts, Elway and probably even Favre would have better numbers as well.

    Second ... the "at this point in his career" argument is really tough as well. Lets be honest, the Packers that Rodgers got handed the reins to had been to the NFC Championship Game just the year before. They are loaded with offensive talent, in particular at WR and TE. I think Rodgers is VERY VERY good. No doubt about it, but he was giving a Mercedes to drive and has managed to not wreck it.

    Favre was not given the same kind of team. I said it BEFORE he was a Vikings QB and I will say it now. Favre is the best thing that EVER happened to the Packers. Better than Lombardi, Starr, Rodgers and Desmond Howard.

    While that team was one of the greats "back in the day" they had completely fallen. They had not been competitive in years and NOBODY wanted to be there. Favre turned all of that around almost by himself.

    Favre had unfortunate luck in that his best years where against super teams like the Cowboys and 49ers, otherwise he would have had probably one or two more rings. He made the Packers an "it" place. You think Reggie White would have had anything to do with Green Bay without No. 4?

    Favre put GB back on the map ... won them a Super Bowl. Broke a shitload of records ... built a Mercedes ... and then watched as the owners of the Mercedes asked him not to drive it anymore, despite having plenty of drive left in him.
    As for comparing to the "all-time" greats. You also have to throw in the shitty Colts team Manning joined. The shittiness of the 49ers team that Montana joined, etc. Rodgers has NEVER played for a shitty team and probably never will. He is definitely part of the reason they are good. I VERY big part. But comparing him to those other guys already is getting a little ahead of yourself.
    Careful, you're making too much sense with points like that.
    I thought it was a good post also.

    Favre himself said that Reggie White was far more impactful than he was in the resurgence of the Packers, so there are at least two people that I know of (Favre and me :P ) that disagree on that point, but that's being picky. B)

    The main reason I made this thread (other than boredom and giving us something to [strike]argue about[/strike] discuss) is that I felt that his 11th ranking in the "top 100 of 2010" by his peers (NFL network show) was low, and I chose this topic rather than a more mundane, "Rodgers was hosed" type thread.

    It seems to be working, except upsetting the sensibilities of those that don't seem especially fond of a discussion unless it dovetails with their preconceived notions of subject matter or somesuch shit. :lol:
    The main reason I made this thread (other than boredom and giving us something to [strike]argue about[/strike] discuss) is that I felt that his 11th ranking in the "top 100 of 2010" by his peers (NFL network show) was low, and I chose this topic rather than a more mundane, "Rodgers was hosed" type thread.
    Now that we know your intent I guess that explains the way you ended the original post.

    (Oh, and you dicks that plan to type "that's about right" better remember you'd blow him to even know him on the Vikes )

    imo
    Considering the season the Vikes had and the fact they were swept by the team that just so happened to win the superbowl, it looked like moronic boasting to me. Favre is no longer on this team .
    Any debate on how good Rodgers is doesn't really have a place here.

    Take it back to the Green Weenie or whatever the Packers fansite is.

    Marrdro isn't the only guy here that doesn't care for all things Green Bay.
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  3. #53
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    Re: Rodgers is better than Favre

    You do know you are in the "General NFL Discussion" thread?

  4. #54
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    Re: Rodgers is better than Favre

    Quote Originally Posted by "dfosterf" #1100471
    You do know you are in the "General NFL Discussion" thread?
    Yes.

    You come to a Vikings fans site and make a boast about your QB and expect to be well received? Get real.

    The debate about Rodgers is fine, and I actually tend to agree with you, eg. time will show AR to be a better QB in the long run.

    Your presentation of the subject matter could have been less confrontational.

    You do know you are posting on a Vikings fan site?
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  5. #55
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    Re: Rodgers is better than Favre

    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1100478
    Quote Originally Posted by "dfosterf" #1100471
    You do know you are in the "General NFL Discussion" thread?
    Yes.

    You come to a Vikings fans site and make a boast about your QB and expect to be well received? Get real.

    The debate about Rodgers is fine, and I actually tend to agree with you, eg. time will show AR to be a better QB in the long run.

    Your presentation of the subject matter could have been less confrontational.

    You do know you are posting on a Vikings fan site?
    My 989 +/- posts are spaced over what... several YEARS? (And that is a Packer fan on a Viking site--How many any of you got on a Packer site, for example. B) ) You make it sound like I just got here. Whatever. If you want to merely swill in your own stew, simply put me on ignore. Favre is (arguably) as much a Packer as a Viking, (some in purple might even agree with that :P ) so I don't know where the "confrontational" comes from, except for (perhaps) some heightened extraordinary sensibilities of some around here.

    Imo, your response could be less knee-jerk-reactionary, since we are playing the sports forum equivalent of miss manners/ Martha Stewart or some such shit.

    At least guys like Caine and midgensa try (editorializing on the "try" thing :P ) to back their shit for Christ's sake (examples) instead of going "Puker fan ad hominem". As a collective group, you have already driven off Rockmolder and Pack 93z, as far as I can see... You want to go for me as well... well, I'll live, but I'd submit your site loses something as a result, a certain dynamic you may miss. I could be wrong, I've been told that by between 10,000 of you and a hundred, ( a certain percentage actually LIKE other's perspectives... can you BELIEVE it??!!) seemingly dependent (the number on this site) on the W-L record of the team you follow. :unsure:

    Go join our site and get some perspective on the "confrontational thing" you speak of. Go see if you have the stones to get constantly sniped at, yet remain civil.

    GFL.

  6. #56
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    Re: Rodgers is better than Favre

    Quote Originally Posted by "dfosterf" #1100493
    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1100478
    Quote Originally Posted by "dfosterf" #1100471
    You do know you are in the "General NFL Discussion" thread?
    Yes.

    You come to a Vikings fans site and make a boast about your QB and expect to be well received? Get real.

    The debate about Rodgers is fine, and I actually tend to agree with you, eg. time will show AR to be a better QB in the long run.

    Your presentation of the subject matter could have been less confrontational.

    You do know you are posting on a Vikings fan site?
    My 989 +/- posts are spaced over what... several YEARS? (And that is a Packer fan on a Viking site--How many any of you got on a Packer site, for example. B) ) You make it sound like I just got here. Whatever. If you want to merely swill in your own stew, simply put me on ignore. Favre is (arguably) as much a Packer as a Viking, (some in purple might even agree with that :P ) so I don't know where the "confrontational" comes from, except for (perhaps) some heightened extraordinary sensibilities of some around here.

    Imo, your response could be less knee-jerk-reactionary, since we are playing the sports forum equivalent of miss manners/ Martha Stewart or some such shit.

    At least guys like Caine and midgensa try (editorializing on the "try" thing :P ) to back their shit for Christ's sake (examples) instead of going "Puker fan ad hominem". As a collective group, you have already driven off Rockmolder and Pack 93z, as far as I can see... You want to go for me as well... well, I'll live, but I'd submit your site loses something as a result, a certain dynamic you may miss. I could be wrong, I've been told that by between 10,000 of you and a hundred, ( a certain percentage actually LIKE other's perspectives... can you BELIEVE it??!!) seemingly dependent (the number on this site) on the W-L record of the team you follow. :unsure:
    This has a lot less to do with longevity or your "credibility" as a poster, and a lot more to do with the tone and timing of this post.

    Let's face it, you haven't been shy about rubbing it in this last season. After awhile, "it's all in good fun" begins to wear thin, and it begins to look a lot more like gloating...especially (As Doc pointed out) you close opening statements with comments like, "Oh, and you dicks that plan to type "that's about right" better remember you'd blow him to even know him on the Vikes".

    Did we "drive off" those other Packer fans, or did they realize that kicking someone when they're down is only fun for a brief period of time? To continue to post about the triumphs of the Packers - like reminding us of their ring ceremony - comes off as boorish and classless...regardless of how much "credibility" one has amassed over time.

    If you expect us - as Viking fans, on a Viking fan site - to share a group hug with you in celebration of the season Green Bay had, I'd suggest that you're looking in the wrong place. If you expect us to greet each Packer news tidbit celebrating their success with good cheer and congratulatory celebrations, I'd suggest that you've misjudged your audience.

    This has little to do with playing "Miss Manners/Martha Stewart", and much more with gauging what your saying and where you're saying it. For example, I don't walk into bars with dozens of Harley-Davidsons parked out front and brag about how superior my Triumph is. As true as it may be - from my point of view - it is antagonistic. I don't walk into my friends house and tell him how much better my house is. I don't tell people at my new job how much better it was at my old job.

    See a trend?

    Fact is, that's what it LOOKS LIKE you're doing of late. It may not be the INTENT - and I tend to give the benefit of the doubt - but that's what it LOOKS LIKE.

    Oh, and be careful about the "fair-weather fan" assertions. As I've said before, I have lived in Wisconsin for most of my life. In the 70's and 80's, I didn't know very many Packer fans. Amazing how they all came out of the closet once Favre started making his mark.

    Caine

  7. #57
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    Re: Rodgers is better than Favre

    It wasn't my intent. I've been here to absorb the shit, so I am well-qualified to know how that feels. I bring no malice except when we can all enjoy it, and again-to me- it has a lot more to do with a changed dynamic as regards the standings/circumstances than with "us" as reflective fan bases.

    Again, no malice intended. (So leave me the fuck alone on that B) )

    On that note, I'm gonna roll until your team is back.

    Good luck, and peace.

  8. #58
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    Re: Rodgers is better than Favre

    Quote Originally Posted by "dfosterf" #1100495
    It wasn't my intent. I've been here to absorb the shit, so I am well-qualified to know how that feels. I bring no malice except when we can all enjoy it, and again-to me- it has a lot more to do with a changed dynamic as regards the standings/circumstances than with "us" as reflective fan bases.

    Again, no malice intended. (So leave me the fuck alone on that B) )

    On that note, I'm gonna roll until your team is back.

    Good luck, and peace.
    Not sure what you mean by, "it has a lot more to do with a changed dynamic as regards the standings/circumstances than with "us" as reflective fan bases". The only dynamic is that Green Bay won and Minnesota melted down...a fact we are all too well aware of. The point I was emphasizing is that consistently reminding us of that can appear to come off as....gloating.

    I didn't assume that you intended malice...if I had assumed that, my reply would have reflected that. I was simply trying to allow you to take a moment and gain perspective.

    If by rolling until our team is back you're saying you're vacating until the season starts - or until the Vikings have a winning franchise again - then you've missed the point/intent of everything I said. A discussion of the relative merits of players is always welcome (Unless your conversation starter is from BleacherReport)...even Favre versus Rodgers.

    But when you introduce "Fandom" into the conversation, it becomes adversarial. Just keep it above the level of fandom, and everyone's fine.

    Caine

  9. #59
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    Re: Rodgers is better than Favre

    Caine has explained it as well as it can be said.

    You mention 93 and Rock. Both were respectful and better received here than several of the Vikings fans that have been here.

    You are the same way...most of the time. But occasionally you like to take jabs at us in our own house.

    I know you are a valuable member and in no sense is anyone trying to run you off.

    But when you make Packer fan type comments you can expect to receive some resistance.
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
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  10. #60
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    Re: Rodgers is better than Favre

    Quote Originally Posted by "midgensa" #1100450
    Favre put GB back on the map ... won them a Super Bowl. Broke a shitload of records ... built a Mercedes ... and then watched as the owners of the Mercedes asked him not to drive it anymore, despite having plenty of drive left in him.
    It would be interesting to how the records he broke equated out per game. Yes he broke a lot of records but he did it at a time when the league played 16 games a year. 40 extra games over a career adds up to a lot more stats. Some of those records were also broke due to his longevity in the league & starting every game. That would also include bad records to own like most interceptions.

    A lot of the old time greats played at a time not only when the season was 14 games long, but when a huge emphasis was on the running game, not the passing game.

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