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  1. #21
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re:Raiders release former top pick Russell

    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    12purplepride28 wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Purple Floyd wrote:
    Seems premature by Vikings standards. He should have gotten at least 5 consecutive seasons of 16 starts before any judgement is made.
    True...it wasn't really his fault....after all, look at the O line, the receivers, the backs...Russell never really had a chance to develop. After all, it takes 2-3 years to develop a QB, so the clock shouldn't have even begun ticking on him. They need to give him another chance...

    See how stupid it sounds when you apply it elsewhere?

    Caine
    Comparing Jackson to Russell is insulting to Jackson. Jackson is 2X the QB that Russell is or ever will be. Jackson was drafted as a 2-3 year project. Russell went first overall.
    And yet its been 4 years, and you still want to give him a chance. I'm by no means a Russel fan, although I did love how he was undefeated at mile high , but neither of the quarterbacks have panned out. I know TJ will get another chance with us, hopefully just one more, unless he proves almost everyone wrong by succeeding.
    Do I want him to get another chance? I'm not sure...I'm reasonably convinced that he is not the answer at QB. It's just the pouting that goes on that drives me nuts.

    Jackson wasn't even that bad, and people just rip him to pieces. I thought Jackson was borderline OK until Favre came in. After watching Favre play for 3 games I could see that Jackson didn't have "It". he might win us some games, and he might be able to manage things...but he isn't a play maker and he isn't a winner.

    But for people to go on and on and constantly whine about the QB situation is ridiculous especially when we've already covered the options that were available. You know it's bad when several people are drooling over David Carr. Of all the guys that have been around there honestly aren't that many that have fared any better than Jackson has to date.

    It's amusing to watch people desperately struggle to place blame. Sometimes shit happens and the cards don't fall in a favorable manner. Blame and pout isn't always the best coping mechanism.
    Apparntly blame and pout and throw out intangible excuses is a better recipe for succss?

    Here's the thing. How do you compare Jackson and Russell? Do you look at Russell and say, Big school, 1st overall pick, ten look at Jackson and say "Small school, 2nd round "project""? No...because that isn't comparing them on equal terms.

    The TRUTH is, once they signed those NFL contracts, they are judged as NFL players. Where they came from, how they got there, and their relative state of readiness no longer matters as soon as they put on the tag "STARTER". At that point, they are expected to simply PERFORM.

    Russell didn't, and Russell got cut...and also got labeled as the biggest bust EVER. Whether or not he deserves that tag is open for debate.

    But where does that leave Jackson?

    As a 5th year player. His small school, developmental sttus was lost eh day he became the annointed starter. At that moment in time he was held to the same standard as every other STARTER in the NFL.

    Did we expect him to instantly become Manning or Brady? No. But we expected him to compete week in and week out, and to improve consistantly, and to elevate his game to the point where he could at least be mentioned in the same sentence as those others witout eliciting derisive laughter.

    And that is what we DIDN'T get. We got a QB who was simply interchangeable with a myriad of other less-than-stellar QB' out there. This is evidenced by the fact that STATISTICALLY in 2007 Holcomb and Bollinger were as effective as Jackson, if not more so. The differnces in each of those games was the play of the rest of the team (We won when someone OTHER THAN THE QB did something wonerful).

    In 2008, Gus Frerotte was able to replace Jackson, bring us back froma 2-game deficit (Courtesy of Jackson), and lead us to our first NFCN title. Sur, Jackson played mop-up on the season, but Gus did the "heavy lifting" that year.

    It is ironic that '08 is pointd to as Jackson's great strides year...dspite the fact that he was 2-3 as a stater, and really only had one really good game (Arizona).

    So, once you remove the irrelevant excues from the equation and simply look for player progression and consistancy, can you honestly say that Jackson has performed all that much better than Russell? I can't. I can say that Jackson's TEAM peformed better than Russell's did, but a players...not really much difference. Jackson has a few more wins, but how many are due to the TEAM? (most of them) Jackson has 3 more TDs, and 34 fewer completeions over the same period of time, really.

    So is Jackson all that much better than Russell? Or is he just on a better team? Once the excuses get stripped away, they don't look all that much different.

    Caine

  2. #22
    jargomcfargo's Avatar
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    Re:Raiders release former top pick Russell

    Russell hit the lottery.
    End of story.
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  3. #23
    C Mac D's Avatar
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    Re:Raiders release former top pick Russell

    Caine wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    12purplepride28 wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Purple Floyd wrote:
    Seems premature by Vikings standards. He should have gotten at least 5 consecutive seasons of 16 starts before any judgement is made.
    True...it wasn't really his fault....after all, look at the O line, the receivers, the backs...Russell never really had a chance to develop. After all, it takes 2-3 years to develop a QB, so the clock shouldn't have even begun ticking on him. They need to give him another chance...

    See how stupid it sounds when you apply it elsewhere?

    Caine
    Comparing Jackson to Russell is insulting to Jackson. Jackson is 2X the QB that Russell is or ever will be. Jackson was drafted as a 2-3 year project. Russell went first overall.
    And yet its been 4 years, and you still want to give him a chance. I'm by no means a Russel fan, although I did love how he was undefeated at mile high , but neither of the quarterbacks have panned out. I know TJ will get another chance with us, hopefully just one more, unless he proves almost everyone wrong by succeeding.
    Do I want him to get another chance? I'm not sure...I'm reasonably convinced that he is not the answer at QB. It's just the pouting that goes on that drives me nuts.

    Jackson wasn't even that bad, and people just rip him to pieces. I thought Jackson was borderline OK until Favre came in. After watching Favre play for 3 games I could see that Jackson didn't have "It". he might win us some games, and he might be able to manage things...but he isn't a play maker and he isn't a winner.

    But for people to go on and on and constantly whine about the QB situation is ridiculous especially when we've already covered the options that were available. You know it's bad when several people are drooling over David Carr. Of all the guys that have been around there honestly aren't that many that have fared any better than Jackson has to date.

    It's amusing to watch people desperately struggle to place blame. Sometimes shit happens and the cards don't fall in a favorable manner. Blame and pout isn't always the best coping mechanism.
    Apparntly blame and pout and throw out intangible excuses is a better recipe for succss?

    Here's the thing. How do you compare Jackson and Russell? Do you look at Russell and say, Big school, 1st overall pick, ten look at Jackson and say "Small school, 2nd round "project""? No...because that isn't comparing them on equal terms.

    The TRUTH is, once they signed those NFL contracts, they are judged as NFL players. Where they came from, how they got there, and their relative state of readiness no longer matters as soon as they put on the tag "STARTER". At that point, they are expected to simply PERFORM.

    Russell didn't, and Russell got cut...and also got labeled as the biggest bust EVER. Whether or not he deserves that tag is open for debate.

    But where does that leave Jackson?

    As a 5th year player. His small school, developmental sttus was lost eh day he became the annointed starter. At that moment in time he was held to the same standard as every other STARTER in the NFL.

    Did we expect him to instantly become Manning or Brady? No. But we expected him to compete week in and week out, and to improve consistantly, and to elevate his game to the point where he could at least be mentioned in the same sentence as those others witout eliciting derisive laughter.

    And that is what we DIDN'T get. We got a QB who was simply interchangeable with a myriad of other less-than-stellar QB' out there. This is evidenced by the fact that STATISTICALLY in 2007 Holcomb and Bollinger were as effective as Jackson, if not more so. The differnces in each of those games was the play of the rest of the team (We won when someone OTHER THAN THE QB did something wonerful).

    In 2008, Gus Frerotte was able to replace Jackson, bring us back froma 2-game deficit (Courtesy of Jackson), and lead us to our first NFCN title. Sur, Jackson played mop-up on the season, but Gus did the "heavy lifting" that year.

    It is ironic that '08 is pointd to as Jackson's great strides year...dspite the fact that he was 2-3 as a stater, and really only had one really good game (Arizona).

    So, once you remove the irrelevant excues from the equation and simply look for player progression and consistancy, can you honestly say that Jackson has performed all that much better than Russell? I can't. I can say that Jackson's TEAM peformed better than Russell's did, but a players...not really much difference. Jackson has a few more wins, but how many are due to the TEAM? (most of them) Jackson has 3 more TDs, and 34 fewer completeions over the same period of time, really.

    So is Jackson all that much better than Russell? Or is he just on a better team? Once the excuses get stripped away, they don't look all that much different.

    Caine
    Problem is, Frerotte didn't lead us to the playoffs. He didn't even play in the last 3.5 games of the season and we only had a one game lead over Green Bay. And he was leading the league in INTs at the time. And we were losing to the Lions at the time.

    Also, it's funny you say "The team performed better than Russell's" when Jackson was putting up better numbers.. but yet you still give the credit to Frerotte in getting us to the playoffs, not the team. lol. People with common sense can see the humor in your posts.

    As for blaming, pouting and throwing out intangible excuses... you've written off every number I've supplied as evidence of his play on the field and you say, "Yeah, well he still sucks..." Then you say it takes 2-3 years to groom a QB.

    Honestly, your posts are just humorous now. Now, please, continue your tirade of hate.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  4. #24
    C Mac D's Avatar
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    Re:Raiders release former top pick Russell

    Caine wrote:
    Purple Floyd wrote:
    Seems premature by Vikings standards. He should have gotten at least 5 consecutive seasons of 16 starts before any judgement is made.
    True...it wasn't really his fault....after all, look at the O line, the receivers, the backs...Russell never really had a chance to develop. After all, it takes 2-3 years to develop a QB, so the clock shouldn't have even begun ticking on him. They need to give him another chance...

    See how stupid it sounds when you apply it elsewhere?

    Caine
    Um... Caine... you're the one that said it takes 2-3 years to develop a QB.

    Caine wrote:
    Some QB's are instantly ready, some not. A 2-3 year window is typical
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  5. #25
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    Re:Raiders release former top pick Russell

    total access says the colts would be a good fit. I said that since day 1, he would fit well with the colts or the chargers as a 3rd stringer. Interesting to see what he does and can he prove himself to be a nfl QB. I say send him to the arena league

  6. #26
    marshallvike's Avatar
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    Re:Raiders release former top pick Russell

    that is going to be one hell of a pay cut.
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  7. #27
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    Re:Raiders release former top pick Russell

    C Mac D wrote:
    Problem is, Frerotte didn't lead us to the playoffs. He didn't even play in the last 3.5 games of the season and we only had a one game lead over Green Bay. And he was leading the league in INTs at the time. And we were losing to the Lions at the time.

    That season who was the QB for the team when the Vikings beat GB and who was the one that lost their starting job after the loss to GB?

  8. #28
    Sajid28 is offline Coordinator
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    Re:Raiders release former top pick Russell

    With the draft that just passed us by, and with Mel Kiper saying we had one of the worst drafts, here is what Mel Kiper said when JaMarcus Russell was drafted:

    JaMarcus Russell is going to immediately energize that raider nation, that fan base, that football team, practice field and that locker room.

    3 years from now you could be looking at a guy who is going to be the elite top 5 quarterbacks in this league.... Obviously he'll need a few years time, 2-3 years time under center, the skill level he has is certainly John Elway type.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZubYpplmzVk


  9. #29
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re:Raiders release former top pick Russell

    C Mac D wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    12purplepride28 wrote:
    BloodyHorns82 wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Purple Floyd wrote:
    Seems premature by Vikings standards. He should have gotten at least 5 consecutive seasons of 16 starts before any judgement is made.
    True...it wasn't really his fault....after all, look at the O line, the receivers, the backs...Russell never really had a chance to develop. After all, it takes 2-3 years to develop a QB, so the clock shouldn't have even begun ticking on him. They need to give him another chance...

    See how stupid it sounds when you apply it elsewhere?

    Caine
    Comparing Jackson to Russell is insulting to Jackson. Jackson is 2X the QB that Russell is or ever will be. Jackson was drafted as a 2-3 year project. Russell went first overall.
    And yet its been 4 years, and you still want to give him a chance. I'm by no means a Russel fan, although I did love how he was undefeated at mile high , but neither of the quarterbacks have panned out. I know TJ will get another chance with us, hopefully just one more, unless he proves almost everyone wrong by succeeding.
    Do I want him to get another chance? I'm not sure...I'm reasonably convinced that he is not the answer at QB. It's just the pouting that goes on that drives me nuts.

    Jackson wasn't even that bad, and people just rip him to pieces. I thought Jackson was borderline OK until Favre came in. After watching Favre play for 3 games I could see that Jackson didn't have "It". he might win us some games, and he might be able to manage things...but he isn't a play maker and he isn't a winner.

    But for people to go on and on and constantly whine about the QB situation is ridiculous especially when we've already covered the options that were available. You know it's bad when several people are drooling over David Carr. Of all the guys that have been around there honestly aren't that many that have fared any better than Jackson has to date.

    It's amusing to watch people desperately struggle to place blame. Sometimes shit happens and the cards don't fall in a favorable manner. Blame and pout isn't always the best coping mechanism.
    Apparntly blame and pout and throw out intangible excuses is a better recipe for succss?

    Here's the thing. How do you compare Jackson and Russell? Do you look at Russell and say, Big school, 1st overall pick, ten look at Jackson and say "Small school, 2nd round "project""? No...because that isn't comparing them on equal terms.

    The TRUTH is, once they signed those NFL contracts, they are judged as NFL players. Where they came from, how they got there, and their relative state of readiness no longer matters as soon as they put on the tag "STARTER". At that point, they are expected to simply PERFORM.

    Russell didn't, and Russell got cut...and also got labeled as the biggest bust EVER. Whether or not he deserves that tag is open for debate.

    But where does that leave Jackson?

    As a 5th year player. His small school, developmental sttus was lost eh day he became the annointed starter. At that moment in time he was held to the same standard as every other STARTER in the NFL.

    Did we expect him to instantly become Manning or Brady? No. But we expected him to compete week in and week out, and to improve consistantly, and to elevate his game to the point where he could at least be mentioned in the same sentence as those others witout eliciting derisive laughter.

    And that is what we DIDN'T get. We got a QB who was simply interchangeable with a myriad of other less-than-stellar QB' out there. This is evidenced by the fact that STATISTICALLY in 2007 Holcomb and Bollinger were as effective as Jackson, if not more so. The differnces in each of those games was the play of the rest of the team (We won when someone OTHER THAN THE QB did something wonerful).

    In 2008, Gus Frerotte was able to replace Jackson, bring us back froma 2-game deficit (Courtesy of Jackson), and lead us to our first NFCN title. Sur, Jackson played mop-up on the season, but Gus did the "heavy lifting" that year.

    It is ironic that '08 is pointd to as Jackson's great strides year...dspite the fact that he was 2-3 as a stater, and really only had one really good game (Arizona).

    So, once you remove the irrelevant excues from the equation and simply look for player progression and consistancy, can you honestly say that Jackson has performed all that much better than Russell? I can't. I can say that Jackson's TEAM peformed better than Russell's did, but a players...not really much difference. Jackson has a few more wins, but how many are due to the TEAM? (most of them) Jackson has 3 more TDs, and 34 fewer completeions over the same period of time, really.

    So is Jackson all that much better than Russell? Or is he just on a better team? Once the excuses get stripped away, they don't look all that much different.

    Caine
    Problem is, Frerotte didn't lead us to the playoffs. He didn't even play in the last 3.5 games of the season and we only had a one game lead over Green Bay. And he was leading the league in INTs at the time. And we were losing to the Lions at the time.

    Also, it's funny you say "The team performed better than Russell's" when Jackson was putting up better numbers.. but yet you still give the credit to Frerotte in getting us to the playoffs, not the team. lol. People with common sense can see the humor in your posts.

    As for blaming, pouting and throwing out intangible excuses... you've written off every number I've supplied as evidence of his play on the field and you say, "Yeah, well he still sucks..." Then you say it takes 2-3 years to groom a QB.

    Honestly, your posts are just humorous now. Now, please, continue your tirade of hate.
    And yours are purely moronic.

    1: Yes, Gus was hurt, but he - as teh QB - had lead the team back into the #1 position. Again, Jackson merely had to maintain the lead.

    2: I didn't realize that I had to state the obvious - that the team which was better for Jackson was also better for Frerotte...but for you, apparantly, I do as you like to nit-pick at nothing then claim some form of superiority on a scale measurable only by you. But, again, it was interesting the Frerotte got more out of that same team...which was why he replaced Jackson until he was hurt and unable to play.

    3: As for writing off your "numbers"...you present stats by themselves and expect them to be the whole story - they aren't. So long as you choose to be hyper-selective about what evidence you present, I will continue to bring in the rest of the story in order to complete the picture. A great example is you touting the 110 QB rating Jackson got last season doing mop up, and tryingf to make taht an indicator of progression...laughable.

    4: The "Time to develop a QB" number was one YOU insisted on getting...and one I repeatedly said was SUBJECTIVE (here's a link to the definition SUBJECTIVE). There is no magic number. REGARDLESS, both QB's have played for at least 3 years, and neither is all that impressive.

    And while you may find my posts humorous, I find your's to be inane, boring, and rather poorly developed...but I guess that's just you.

    Caine

  10. #30
    RK.'s Avatar
    RK.
    RK. is offline Ring of Fame Rally Cross II Champion
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    Re:Raiders release former top pick Russell

    The Raiders are a suck ass team. Russell never had a chance. There is no one that could have done anything there. Until Al Davis is gone the Raiders will suck plain and simple. Someone will sign Russell and give him a second shot IMO.

    WWBGD

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