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  1. #61
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    43,909

    Re: Peter King: Early Power Rankings

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "Overlord" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    "seaniemck7" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    [quote author=ThorSPL link=topic=44718.msg775305#msg775305 date=1210081688]
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=44718.msg775280#msg775280 date=1210077095]
    [quote author=ThorSPL link=topic=44718.msg775088#msg775088 date=1210038169]
    Plus half the guarantees are protected by the way the CBA allows teams to recover certain bonuses.....
    No, that's wrong.
    I thought I remembered reading something where courts have ruled one type of bonus was something that teams were successfully able to retrieve while another one they couldn't.... I'd swear I read something like that in the Allen thread; but there is NO WAY IN HELL I'm going back through it.. oh well.
    With Allen's contract, the Vikings have staggered the $31 million guaranteed over the first 3 or 4 seasons.
    The first chunk ($16 million) was a signing bonus and is already in Allen's pocket.
    The rest of the $15 million is in ROSTER bonuses for 2009, 2010 and 2011 (I believe - might only be 2009 & 2010).
    So, if Allen gets in trouble and the Vikings CUT/RELEASE him prior to the day when roster bonuses kick in, they are off-the-hook for those.

    As far as I know, that's the only protection in this contract.
    The current CBA does NOT allow for recovering guaranteed money for conduct.
    Signing bonuses are recoverable, because they are considered "prepaid compensation".
    The amount recoverable would be the out years that a player has not yet played, but for which he was compensated already.
    Example:
    5 year contract, $15M signing bonus equates to $3M a year (as it hits the salary cap as well). The player with said signing bonus goes out and shoots someone in the hand after year 2 which breeches his contract.
    The team technically could recover the SIGNING BONUS portion of the 3 remaining years for a possible $9M.

    Roster bonuses and guaranteed salaries cannot be with held or recovered by the team.
    I disagree whole-heartedly.
    You're confusing the cap impact of the signing bonus with the payout of said bonus.
    Jared Allen has that $16 million now.
    It's been paid.
    The impact to the cap is spread out over the life of the contract, but the money is his.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/04/sports/main3785994.shtml

    A special master ruled in October that the Falcons were entitled to recover the bonuses. The Falcons argued that Vick used proceeds from a contract he signed in 2004 to finance his illicit activities.

    But U.S. District Judge David Doty of Minneapolis ruled that the Falcons' recovering the bonus money would violate the NFL collective bargaining agreement. The agreement does not allow signing bonuses to be forfeited for years a player has already performed.
    So - if Allen plays in 2008, I don't see how his signing bonus is recoverable.
    [/quote]

    No, seaniemck7 is correct.

    A signing bonus is recoverable for the portion of the contract not yet performed.
    Look at the text you quoted: "the agreement does not allow signing bonuses to be forfeited for years a player has already performed."
    So if Allen had performed 1 year (2008), then that portion of the signing bonus would not be recoverable.
    But the remainder (~$12.7 million) of the bonus would be recoverable.

    In contrast to signing bonuses, a roster bonus is not recoverable once paid out.

    So anyway, while it's true that Jarred Allen has the money now, if he messes up he may have to pay most of it back.
    [/quote]

    Nice article here - wish I'd found it earlier:
    http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1188896550604

    Seems that it all depends on how the "signing" bonus is categorized - which, of course, we don't know and won't know unless it becomes an issue - because the NFLPA doesn't release bonus numbers, just base-salary information.

    If the whole $16 million was a "signing" bonus, then, yes, it appears if he's cut after the season the Vikings might be able to get some of that $16 million back.

    But back to the original point that Thor made - the "protections" in the CBA are all slanted towards the players - not towards protecting the teams.
    I know I read someplace last week or the week before that the prevailing opinion is that the NFL should never have signed the extension in 2006 - and one of the main reasons was that it eliminated a lot of the ways that teams could go after bonuses.

    =Z=
    [/quote]
    So Z, are you agreeing to disagree whole-heartedly now?

    :
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #62
    Zeus's Avatar
    Zeus is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
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    Minnesota.
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    Re: Peter King: Early Power Rankings

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    "Overlord" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    "seaniemck7" wrote:
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=44718.msg775316#msg775316 date=1210083008]
    [quote author=ThorSPL link=topic=44718.msg775305#msg775305 date=1210081688]
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=44718.msg775280#msg775280 date=1210077095]
    [quote author=ThorSPL link=topic=44718.msg775088#msg775088 date=1210038169]
    Plus half the guarantees are protected by the way the CBA allows teams to recover certain bonuses.....
    No, that's wrong.
    I thought I remembered reading something where courts have ruled one type of bonus was something that teams were successfully able to retrieve while another one they couldn't.... I'd swear I read something like that in the Allen thread; but there is NO WAY IN HELL I'm going back through it.. oh well.
    With Allen's contract, the Vikings have staggered the $31 million guaranteed over the first 3 or 4 seasons.
    The first chunk ($16 million) was a signing bonus and is already in Allen's pocket.
    The rest of the $15 million is in ROSTER bonuses for 2009, 2010 and 2011 (I believe - might only be 2009 & 2010).
    So, if Allen gets in trouble and the Vikings CUT/RELEASE him prior to the day when roster bonuses kick in, they are off-the-hook for those.

    As far as I know, that's the only protection in this contract.
    The current CBA does NOT allow for recovering guaranteed money for conduct.
    Signing bonuses are recoverable, because they are considered "prepaid compensation".
    The amount recoverable would be the out years that a player has not yet played, but for which he was compensated already.
    Example:
    5 year contract, $15M signing bonus equates to $3M a year (as it hits the salary cap as well). The player with said signing bonus goes out and shoots someone in the hand after year 2 which breeches his contract.
    The team technically could recover the SIGNING BONUS portion of the 3 remaining years for a possible $9M.

    Roster bonuses and guaranteed salaries cannot be with held or recovered by the team.
    I disagree whole-heartedly.
    You're confusing the cap impact of the signing bonus with the payout of said bonus.
    Jared Allen has that $16 million now.
    It's been paid.
    The impact to the cap is spread out over the life of the contract, but the money is his.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/04/sports/main3785994.shtml

    A special master ruled in October that the Falcons were entitled to recover the bonuses. The Falcons argued that Vick used proceeds from a contract he signed in 2004 to finance his illicit activities.

    But U.S. District Judge David Doty of Minneapolis ruled that the Falcons' recovering the bonus money would violate the NFL collective bargaining agreement. The agreement does not allow signing bonuses to be forfeited for years a player has already performed.
    So - if Allen plays in 2008, I don't see how his signing bonus is recoverable.
    [/quote]

    No, seaniemck7 is correct.

    A signing bonus is recoverable for the portion of the contract not yet performed.
    Look at the text you quoted: "the agreement does not allow signing bonuses to be forfeited for years a player has already performed."
    So if Allen had performed 1 year (2008), then that portion of the signing bonus would not be recoverable.
    But the remainder (~$12.7 million) of the bonus would be recoverable.

    In contrast to signing bonuses, a roster bonus is not recoverable once paid out.

    So anyway, while it's true that Jarred Allen has the money now, if he messes up he may have to pay most of it back.
    [/quote]

    Nice article here - wish I'd found it earlier:
    http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1188896550604

    Seems that it all depends on how the "signing" bonus is categorized - which, of course, we don't know and won't know unless it becomes an issue - because the NFLPA doesn't release bonus numbers, just base-salary information.

    If the whole $16 million was a "signing" bonus, then, yes, it appears if he's cut after the season the Vikings might be able to get some of that $16 million back.

    But back to the original point that Thor made - the "protections" in the CBA are all slanted towards the players - not towards protecting the teams.
    I know I read someplace last week or the week before that the prevailing opinion is that the NFL should never have signed the extension in 2006 - and one of the main reasons was that it eliminated a lot of the ways that teams could go after bonuses.
    [/quote]

    So Z, are you agreeing to disagree whole-heartedly now?

    :
    [/quote]

    Well - bad Marrdro is back, I see.

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

  3. #63
    NodakPaul's Avatar
    NodakPaul is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    West Fargo, ND
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    17,601
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Peter King: Early Power Rankings

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    "Overlord" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    [quote author=seaniemck7 link=topic=44718.msg775332#msg775332 date=1210084514]
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=44718.msg775316#msg775316 date=1210083008]
    [quote author=ThorSPL link=topic=44718.msg775305#msg775305 date=1210081688]
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=44718.msg775280#msg775280 date=1210077095]
    [quote author=ThorSPL link=topic=44718.msg775088#msg775088 date=1210038169]
    Plus half the guarantees are protected by the way the CBA allows teams to recover certain bonuses.....
    No, that's wrong.
    I thought I remembered reading something where courts have ruled one type of bonus was something that teams were successfully able to retrieve while another one they couldn't.... I'd swear I read something like that in the Allen thread; but there is NO WAY IN HELL I'm going back through it.. oh well.
    With Allen's contract, the Vikings have staggered the $31 million guaranteed over the first 3 or 4 seasons.
    The first chunk ($16 million) was a signing bonus and is already in Allen's pocket.
    The rest of the $15 million is in ROSTER bonuses for 2009, 2010 and 2011 (I believe - might only be 2009 & 2010).
    So, if Allen gets in trouble and the Vikings CUT/RELEASE him prior to the day when roster bonuses kick in, they are off-the-hook for those.

    As far as I know, that's the only protection in this contract.
    The current CBA does NOT allow for recovering guaranteed money for conduct.
    Signing bonuses are recoverable, because they are considered "prepaid compensation".
    The amount recoverable would be the out years that a player has not yet played, but for which he was compensated already.
    Example:
    5 year contract, $15M signing bonus equates to $3M a year (as it hits the salary cap as well). The player with said signing bonus goes out and shoots someone in the hand after year 2 which breeches his contract.
    The team technically could recover the SIGNING BONUS portion of the 3 remaining years for a possible $9M.

    Roster bonuses and guaranteed salaries cannot be with held or recovered by the team.
    I disagree whole-heartedly.
    You're confusing the cap impact of the signing bonus with the payout of said bonus.
    Jared Allen has that $16 million now.
    It's been paid.
    The impact to the cap is spread out over the life of the contract, but the money is his.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/04/sports/main3785994.shtml

    A special master ruled in October that the Falcons were entitled to recover the bonuses. The Falcons argued that Vick used proceeds from a contract he signed in 2004 to finance his illicit activities.

    But U.S. District Judge David Doty of Minneapolis ruled that the Falcons' recovering the bonus money would violate the NFL collective bargaining agreement. The agreement does not allow signing bonuses to be forfeited for years a player has already performed.
    So - if Allen plays in 2008, I don't see how his signing bonus is recoverable.
    [/quote]

    No, seaniemck7 is correct.

    A signing bonus is recoverable for the portion of the contract not yet performed.
    Look at the text you quoted: "the agreement does not allow signing bonuses to be forfeited for years a player has already performed."
    So if Allen had performed 1 year (2008), then that portion of the signing bonus would not be recoverable.
    But the remainder (~$12.7 million) of the bonus would be recoverable.

    In contrast to signing bonuses, a roster bonus is not recoverable once paid out.

    So anyway, while it's true that Jarred Allen has the money now, if he messes up he may have to pay most of it back.
    [/quote]

    Nice article here - wish I'd found it earlier:
    http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1188896550604

    Seems that it all depends on how the "signing" bonus is categorized - which, of course, we don't know and won't know unless it becomes an issue - because the NFLPA doesn't release bonus numbers, just base-salary information.

    If the whole $16 million was a "signing" bonus, then, yes, it appears if he's cut after the season the Vikings might be able to get some of that $16 million back.

    But back to the original point that Thor made - the "protections" in the CBA are all slanted towards the players - not towards protecting the teams.
    I know I read someplace last week or the week before that the prevailing opinion is that the NFL should never have signed the extension in 2006 - and one of the main reasons was that it eliminated a lot of the ways that teams could go after bonuses.
    [/quote]

    So Z, are you agreeing to disagree whole-heartedly now?
    :
    [/quote]

    Well - bad Marrdro is back, I see.

    =Z=
    [/quote]

    WHOO HOO!
    Bad Marrdro rocks!
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  4. #64
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
    Purple Floyd is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
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    16,646
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Peter King: Early Power Rankings

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    "Overlord" wrote:
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=44718.msg775356#msg775356 date=1210090359]
    [quote author=seaniemck7 link=topic=44718.msg775332#msg775332 date=1210084514]
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=44718.msg775316#msg775316 date=1210083008]
    [quote author=ThorSPL link=topic=44718.msg775305#msg775305 date=1210081688]
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=44718.msg775280#msg775280 date=1210077095]
    [quote author=ThorSPL link=topic=44718.msg775088#msg775088 date=1210038169]
    Plus half the guarantees are protected by the way the CBA allows teams to recover certain bonuses.....
    No, that's wrong.
    I thought I remembered reading something where courts have ruled one type of bonus was something that teams were successfully able to retrieve while another one they couldn't.... I'd swear I read something like that in the Allen thread; but there is NO WAY IN HELL I'm going back through it.. oh well.
    With Allen's contract, the Vikings have staggered the $31 million guaranteed over the first 3 or 4 seasons.
    The first chunk ($16 million) was a signing bonus and is already in Allen's pocket.
    The rest of the $15 million is in ROSTER bonuses for 2009, 2010 and 2011 (I believe - might only be 2009 & 2010).
    So, if Allen gets in trouble and the Vikings CUT/RELEASE him prior to the day when roster bonuses kick in, they are off-the-hook for those.

    As far as I know, that's the only protection in this contract.
    The current CBA does NOT allow for recovering guaranteed money for conduct.
    Signing bonuses are recoverable, because they are considered "prepaid compensation".
    The amount recoverable would be the out years that a player has not yet played, but for which he was compensated already.
    Example:
    5 year contract, $15M signing bonus equates to $3M a year (as it hits the salary cap as well). The player with said signing bonus goes out and shoots someone in the hand after year 2 which breeches his contract.
    The team technically could recover the SIGNING BONUS portion of the 3 remaining years for a possible $9M.

    Roster bonuses and guaranteed salaries cannot be with held or recovered by the team.
    I disagree whole-heartedly.
    You're confusing the cap impact of the signing bonus with the payout of said bonus.
    Jared Allen has that $16 million now.
    It's been paid.
    The impact to the cap is spread out over the life of the contract, but the money is his.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/04/sports/main3785994.shtml

    A special master ruled in October that the Falcons were entitled to recover the bonuses. The Falcons argued that Vick used proceeds from a contract he signed in 2004 to finance his illicit activities.

    But U.S. District Judge David Doty of Minneapolis ruled that the Falcons' recovering the bonus money would violate the NFL collective bargaining agreement. The agreement does not allow signing bonuses to be forfeited for years a player has already performed.
    So - if Allen plays in 2008, I don't see how his signing bonus is recoverable.
    [/quote]

    No, seaniemck7 is correct.

    A signing bonus is recoverable for the portion of the contract not yet performed.
    Look at the text you quoted: "the agreement does not allow signing bonuses to be forfeited for years a player has already performed."
    So if Allen had performed 1 year (2008), then that portion of the signing bonus would not be recoverable.
    But the remainder (~$12.7 million) of the bonus would be recoverable.

    In contrast to signing bonuses, a roster bonus is not recoverable once paid out.

    So anyway, while it's true that Jarred Allen has the money now, if he messes up he may have to pay most of it back.
    [/quote]

    Nice article here - wish I'd found it earlier:
    http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1188896550604

    Seems that it all depends on how the "signing" bonus is categorized - which, of course, we don't know and won't know unless it becomes an issue - because the NFLPA doesn't release bonus numbers, just base-salary information.

    If the whole $16 million was a "signing" bonus, then, yes, it appears if he's cut after the season the Vikings might be able to get some of that $16 million back.

    But back to the original point that Thor made - the "protections" in the CBA are all slanted towards the players - not towards protecting the teams.
    I know I read someplace last week or the week before that the prevailing opinion is that the NFL should never have signed the extension in 2006 - and one of the main reasons was that it eliminated a lot of the ways that teams could go after bonuses.
    [/quote]

    So Z, are you agreeing to disagree whole-heartedly now?
    :
    [/quote]

    Well - bad Marrdro is back, I see.

    =Z=
    [/quote]

    WHOO HOO!
    Bad Marrdro rocks!
    [/quote]

    I just moved Bad Marr up my spreadsheet ;D

  5. #65
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    43,909

    Re: Peter King: Early Power Rankings

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    "Overlord" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    [quote author=seaniemck7 link=topic=44718.msg775332#msg775332 date=1210084514]
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=44718.msg775316#msg775316 date=1210083008]
    [quote author=ThorSPL link=topic=44718.msg775305#msg775305 date=1210081688]
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=44718.msg775280#msg775280 date=1210077095]
    [quote author=ThorSPL link=topic=44718.msg775088#msg775088 date=1210038169]
    Plus half the guarantees are protected by the way the CBA allows teams to recover certain bonuses.....
    No, that's wrong.
    I thought I remembered reading something where courts have ruled one type of bonus was something that teams were successfully able to retrieve while another one they couldn't.... I'd swear I read something like that in the Allen thread; but there is NO WAY IN HELL I'm going back through it.. oh well.
    With Allen's contract, the Vikings have staggered the $31 million guaranteed over the first 3 or 4 seasons.
    The first chunk ($16 million) was a signing bonus and is already in Allen's pocket.
    The rest of the $15 million is in ROSTER bonuses for 2009, 2010 and 2011 (I believe - might only be 2009 & 2010).
    So, if Allen gets in trouble and the Vikings CUT/RELEASE him prior to the day when roster bonuses kick in, they are off-the-hook for those.

    As far as I know, that's the only protection in this contract.
    The current CBA does NOT allow for recovering guaranteed money for conduct.
    Signing bonuses are recoverable, because they are considered "prepaid compensation".
    The amount recoverable would be the out years that a player has not yet played, but for which he was compensated already.
    Example:
    5 year contract, $15M signing bonus equates to $3M a year (as it hits the salary cap as well). The player with said signing bonus goes out and shoots someone in the hand after year 2 which breeches his contract.
    The team technically could recover the SIGNING BONUS portion of the 3 remaining years for a possible $9M.

    Roster bonuses and guaranteed salaries cannot be with held or recovered by the team.
    I disagree whole-heartedly.
    You're confusing the cap impact of the signing bonus with the payout of said bonus.
    Jared Allen has that $16 million now.
    It's been paid.
    The impact to the cap is spread out over the life of the contract, but the money is his.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/04/sports/main3785994.shtml

    A special master ruled in October that the Falcons were entitled to recover the bonuses. The Falcons argued that Vick used proceeds from a contract he signed in 2004 to finance his illicit activities.

    But U.S. District Judge David Doty of Minneapolis ruled that the Falcons' recovering the bonus money would violate the NFL collective bargaining agreement. The agreement does not allow signing bonuses to be forfeited for years a player has already performed.
    So - if Allen plays in 2008, I don't see how his signing bonus is recoverable.
    [/quote]

    No, seaniemck7 is correct.

    A signing bonus is recoverable for the portion of the contract not yet performed.
    Look at the text you quoted: "the agreement does not allow signing bonuses to be forfeited for years a player has already performed."
    So if Allen had performed 1 year (2008), then that portion of the signing bonus would not be recoverable.
    But the remainder (~$12.7 million) of the bonus would be recoverable.

    In contrast to signing bonuses, a roster bonus is not recoverable once paid out.

    So anyway, while it's true that Jarred Allen has the money now, if he messes up he may have to pay most of it back.
    [/quote]

    Nice article here - wish I'd found it earlier:
    http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1188896550604

    Seems that it all depends on how the "signing" bonus is categorized - which, of course, we don't know and won't know unless it becomes an issue - because the NFLPA doesn't release bonus numbers, just base-salary information.

    If the whole $16 million was a "signing" bonus, then, yes, it appears if he's cut after the season the Vikings might be able to get some of that $16 million back.

    But back to the original point that Thor made - the "protections" in the CBA are all slanted towards the players - not towards protecting the teams.
    I know I read someplace last week or the week before that the prevailing opinion is that the NFL should never have signed the extension in 2006 - and one of the main reasons was that it eliminated a lot of the ways that teams could go after bonuses.
    [/quote]

    So Z, are you agreeing to disagree whole-heartedly now?

    :
    [/quote]

    Well - bad Marrdro is back, I see.

    =Z=
    [/quote]
    Naw, just messing my friend.
    See my PM.
    ;D
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #66
    midgensa's Avatar
    midgensa is offline Jersey Retired Free Kick Specialist 3 Champion
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    Re: Peter King: Early Power Rankings

    "singersp" wrote:
    [size=13pt]The Vikings king in the NFC North?[/size]

    Posted May 6, 2008

    packersnews.com



    Veteran NFL writer Peter King writes a Monday Morning Quarterback column at SI.com, and this week proclaimed the Minnesota Vikings as the third-best team in the NFC behind the Dallas Cowboys and New York Giants....
    The more and more I think about it and try to NOT be biased ... I think we are a top three team in the NFC as well ... maybe fourth ... but somewhere in that area. I have a hard time not putting the Cowgirls at No. 1 and the Giants at No. 2, but I could see the Giants having a very tough time this year. I also still like the Seahawks, but I think we are as good or maybe even a little better than them.

  7. #67
    DustinDupont's Avatar
    DustinDupont is offline Team Alumni
    Join Date
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    2,607

    Re: Peter King: Early Power Rankings

    "midgensa" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    [size=13pt]The Vikings king in the NFC North?[/size]

    Posted May 6, 2008

    packersnews.com



    Veteran NFL writer Peter King writes a Monday Morning Quarterback column at SI.com, and this week proclaimed the Minnesota Vikings as the third-best team in the NFC behind the Dallas Cowboys and New York Giants....
    The more and more I think about it and try to NOT be biased ... I think we are a top three team in the NFC as well ... maybe fourth ... but somewhere in that area. I have a hard time not putting the Cowgirls at No. 1 and the Giants at No. 2, but I could see the Giants having a very tough time this year. I also still like the Seahawks, but I think we are as good or maybe even a little better than them.
    Yeah i have the same feeling.. but Hopefully the team doesnt get to over confident

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