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  1. #101
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    Re: Patriots suspected of cheating in game vs Jets

    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "Overlord" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "Overlord" wrote:

    (4) I don't think they'll take the game away, as some people here are suggesting they should.
    For the most part, I think fans would be ticked and it wouldn't help the league long term.
    That game wasn't close, so most people aren't going to believe that stealing signals really made a big difference.
    It would also turn it into a big deal in the media, making the NFL look like they have a bad cheating problem, whereas before it was just considered to be a lot of 'stretching the rules'.
    I don't think this means that it isn't the appropriate action though.
    If that is true, why do they risk so much in order to do it?
    That game may not have been close, but maybe that was because they were cheating.
    And considering the reports coming in from other teas with the same complaint against the Patriots, my guess is that it became so commonplace for the Pats that they did it against every team.

    Also, there are different reports coming in regarding the way the images were used.
    Some are claiming that the signals caught by the video were relayed to the Pat's coaching staff in real time, which could easily be given to Brady then.
    That would make a pretty gol 'darnit big difference in the game.
    I agree completely.
    As I've said before, I'm merely suggesting that most fans won't think that it had a huge impact on the game until everyone on sportscenter and other coaches start saying it did.
    Most fans are thinking: 1) the Patriots have been better than the Jets for a long time; 2) the Patriots got a bunch of new talent in the offseason; 3) the Patriots have one of the best QBs in the league; 4) other teams do the same thing; and 5) the Patriots actually won the game by more than 3 TDs.


    The actual impact might have been really big though.
    We don't know for sure, but it seems to me like knowing whether the defense is going to blitz, sit back in a zone, play man-to-man, whatever, would be a big deal for the QB.
    What they did to get this info was cheating and should be punished.
    It deserves a severe punishment.

    But I'm not sure how severe, and I also think the league may temper their reaction a bit to avoid the perception that it's a big deal if they can avoid it.
    If the impact is no big deal, then why break the rule in the first place?
    Where there's smoke, there's fire...c'mon don't minimize the fact that the Putzies REPEATEDLY have done this...they KNEW they weren't supposed to do it...yet they did.
    They need to be smacked!
    I don't understand where the confusion is coming from.
    I agree that they broke the rules.
    I don't think there's really any question of that.
    I agree that they have shown extreme arrogance by doing so despite previous complaints and warnings.
    Their reply, that everyone is after them because they are a good team, is just further arrogance (it sounds like every dumb celeb that gets busted).
    I agree that cheating in this way could have a big impact on the game.
    I agree that they deserve a severe punishment.


    But I'm trying to suggest what will happen, not what should happen.
    Or at least, since I don't know any precedent by which to judge this, I'm trying to suggest something that might impact Goodell's decision on what he will do.
    This is still a business, and they have rules and enforce them for their own interests, not necessarily for reasons of right and wrong.
    When the age of the Vikings came to a close, they must have sensed it. Probably, they gathered together one evening, slapped each other on the back and said, "Hey, good job." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]

  2. #102
    cajunvike's Avatar
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    Re: Patriots suspected of cheating in game vs Jets

    "Overlord" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "Overlord" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    [quote author=Overlord link=topic=37656.msg635115#msg635115 date=1189564292]

    (4) I don't think they'll take the game away, as some people here are suggesting they should.
    For the most part, I think fans would be ticked and it wouldn't help the league long term.
    That game wasn't close, so most people aren't going to believe that stealing signals really made a big difference.
    It would also turn it into a big deal in the media, making the NFL look like they have a bad cheating problem, whereas before it was just considered to be a lot of 'stretching the rules'.
    I don't think this means that it isn't the appropriate action though.
    If that is true, why do they risk so much in order to do it?
    That game may not have been close, but maybe that was because they were cheating.
    And considering the reports coming in from other teas with the same complaint against the Patriots, my guess is that it became so commonplace for the Pats that they did it against every team.

    Also, there are different reports coming in regarding the way the images were used.
    Some are claiming that the signals caught by the video were relayed to the Pat's coaching staff in real time, which could easily be given to Brady then.
    That would make a pretty gol 'darnit big difference in the game.
    I agree completely.
    As I've said before, I'm merely suggesting that most fans won't think that it had a huge impact on the game until everyone on sportscenter and other coaches start saying it did.
    Most fans are thinking: 1) the Patriots have been better than the Jets for a long time; 2) the Patriots got a bunch of new talent in the offseason; 3) the Patriots have one of the best QBs in the league; 4) other teams do the same thing; and 5) the Patriots actually won the game by more than 3 TDs.


    The actual impact might have been really big though.
    We don't know for sure, but it seems to me like knowing whether the defense is going to blitz, sit back in a zone, play man-to-man, whatever, would be a big deal for the QB.
    What they did to get this info was cheating and should be punished.
    It deserves a severe punishment.

    But I'm not sure how severe, and I also think the league may temper their reaction a bit to avoid the perception that it's a big deal if they can avoid it.
    If the impact is no big deal, then why break the rule in the first place?
    Where there's smoke, there's fire...c'mon don't minimize the fact that the Putzies REPEATEDLY have done this...they KNEW they weren't supposed to do it...yet they did.
    They need to be smacked!
    I don't understand where the confusion is coming from.
    I agree that they broke the rules.
    I don't think there's really any question of that.
    I agree that they have shown extreme arrogance by doing so despite previous complaints and warnings.
    Their reply, that everyone is after them because they are a good team, is just further arrogance (it sounds like every dumb celeb that gets busted).
    I agree that cheating in this way could have a big impact on the game.
    I agree that they deserve a severe punishment.


    But I'm trying to suggest what will happen, not what should happen.
    Or at least, since I don't know any precedent by which to judge this, I'm trying to suggest something that might impact Goodell's decision on what he will do.
    This is still a business, and they have rules and enforce them for their own interests, not necessarily for reasons of right and wrong.
    [/quote]

    It IS a big deal...anytime a team blatently cheats, it is.
    When Pete Rose got caught betting on baseball, they banned him for life. I'm not suggesting something that severe...BUT the NFL needs to send a message..cheating will not be tolerated!

    But yes, we are probably mostly on the same page.
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  3. #103
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    Re: Patriots suspected of cheating in game vs Jets

    "cajunvike" wrote:
    It IS a big deal...anytime a team blatently cheats, it is.
    When Pete Rose got caught betting on baseball, they banned him for life. I'm not suggesting something that severe...BUT the NFL needs to send a message..cheating will not be tolerated!

    But yes, we are probably mostly on the same page.
    Betting on baseball is NOT cheating.
    And there is no evidence that Rose bet on games in which his team was involved.

    A better example would be to bring up stealing signs in baseball.
    If you're doing it from the dugout, it's fair game.
    If you've got a camera in CF to look into the catcher's mitt and relay it to the dugout, that's cheating and the team will be punished.

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

  4. #104
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    Re: Patriots suspected of cheating in game vs Jets

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    It IS a big deal...anytime a team blatently cheats, it is.
    When Pete Rose got caught betting on baseball, they banned him for life. I'm not suggesting something that severe...BUT the NFL needs to send a message..cheating will not be tolerated!

    But yes, we are probably mostly on the same page.
    Betting on baseball is NOT cheating.
    And there is no evidence that Rose bet on games in which his team was involved.

    A better example would be to bring up stealing signs in baseball.
    If you're doing it from the dugout, it's fair game.
    If you've got a camera in CF to look into the catcher's mitt and relay it to the dugout, that's cheating and the team will be punished.

    =Z=
    I think that they are not only trying to get a competative advantage during the game, but with these AFC opponents that they are meeting twice a year, they are getting an advanced scouting report with those tapes.

    True, every team gets the polaroids from the top view and can look across the way at the signals with their own eyes, but the camera adds a competative advantage, it allows review.

  5. #105
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    Re: Patriots suspected of cheating in game vs Jets

    "snowinapril" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    It IS a big deal...anytime a team blatently cheats, it is.
    When Pete Rose got caught betting on baseball, they banned him for life. I'm not suggesting something that severe...BUT the NFL needs to send a message..cheating will not be tolerated!

    But yes, we are probably mostly on the same page.
    Betting on baseball is NOT cheating.
    And there is no evidence that Rose bet on games in which his team was involved.

    A better example would be to bring up stealing signs in baseball.
    If you're doing it from the dugout, it's fair game.
    If you've got a camera in CF to look into the catcher's mitt and relay it to the dugout, that's cheating and the team will be punished.
    I think that they are not only trying to get a competative advantage during the game, but with these AFC opponents that they are meeting twice a year, they are getting an advanced scouting report with those tapes.

    True, every team gets the polaroids from the top view and can look across the way at the signals with their own eyes, but the camera adds a competative advantage, it allows review.
    Can't each team also watch the TV broadcast?

    I'm in no way defending the Patriots - mostly because there's an explicit rule against this sort of bullshit.
    But comparing it to Rose's gambling was incorrect, IMHO.

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

  6. #106
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Patriots suspected of cheating in game vs Jets

    "Overlord" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "Overlord" wrote:
    If they get a huge penalty, that sends the message that it's actually more serious, like they did something that is morally reprehensible, not just against the rules.
    The league would be encouraging the idea that its members aren't just looking for a competitive edge, but are bad people and cheaters.
    It's not the "looking for a competitive advantage" that rankles, it's the arrogance with which they repeatedly flaunted an ESTABLISHED rule.
    They need to be smacked down and to be made an example!
    I'm not saying that it doesn't tick people off.
    I'm suggesting that it might be in the best interest of the NFL if it only continues to tick people off.
    If I'm the league office, I would rather have fans thinking that Belichick is a jerk than thinking that the good teams have to consistantly cheat to win.
    They don't want this to turn into a Barry Bonds thing, where what should be a huge selling point for the league (a very successful franchise) gets turned into a negative.
    They don't want people to think that this had a big effect on the games.


    A relatively minor punishment (i.e., not taking away past victories or massive amounts of draft picks) suggests that it's not a big deal, but that the league recognizes that Belichick is an arrogant jerk.
    A huge punishment suggests that it is a big deal.

    That's my thinking anyway.
    But I don't know what Goodell will actually do.
    I'm simply suggesting that the NFL might not give him the punishment he really deserves or that would otherwise be used to deter teams in the future.
    Punishment should not be minor.
    This is a rule Goodell has warned about on several occasions.
    Yet, this arrogant jerk thinks he is beyond the rules.
    The fact is I don't know if everything I mentioned will happen.
    they are just my opinion.
    I do think draft picks should be put in a lottery because if they are just forfeited you are telling 7 or so guys, we're sorry you can't be drafted becuase the Patriots fucked up.
    Is that fair to next year's crop of rookies?
    No.
    The Pats should be hit hard here.
    Losing all the picks is just the beginning.
    Bellyfat should be suspended also.

  7. #107
    vikingivan is offline Star Spokesman
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    Re: Patriots suspected of cheating in game vs Jets

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    It IS a big deal...anytime a team blatently cheats, it is.
    When Pete Rose got caught betting on baseball, they banned him for life. I'm not suggesting something that severe...BUT the NFL needs to send a message..cheating will not be tolerated!

    But yes, we are probably mostly on the same page.
    Betting on baseball is NOT cheating.
    And there is no evidence that Rose bet on games in which his team was involved.

    A better example would be to bring up stealing signs in baseball.
    If you're doing it from the dugout, it's fair game.
    If you've got a camera in CF to look into the catcher's mitt and relay it to the dugout, that's cheating and the team will be punished.

    =Z=
    Pete Rose admitted to betting on his team to win.
    What more evidence do you need Z?

  8. #108
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Patriots suspected of cheating in game vs Jets

    "vikingivan" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    It IS a big deal...anytime a team blatently cheats, it is.
    When Pete Rose got caught betting on baseball, they banned him for life. I'm not suggesting something that severe...BUT the NFL needs to send a message..cheating will not be tolerated!

    But yes, we are probably mostly on the same page.
    Betting on baseball is NOT cheating.
    And there is no evidence that Rose bet on games in which his team was involved.

    A better example would be to bring up stealing signs in baseball.
    If you're doing it from the dugout, it's fair game.
    If you've got a camera in CF to look into the catcher's mitt and relay it to the dugout, that's cheating and the team will be punished.

    =Z=
    Pete Rose admitted to betting on his team to win.
    What more evidence do you need Z?
    One of the main reasons he was banned for life was because it took several years for him to finally admit to it.
    If he would have been up front about it things may be a little different.

  9. #109
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    Re: Patriots suspected of cheating in game vs Jets

    Take away their titles.

  10. #110
    lakehubertviking is offline Asst. Coach
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    Re: Patriots suspected of cheating in game vs Jets

    Belichick speaks with Goodell, apologizes for videotape flap
    Associated Press


    FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick apologized to his team on Wednesday and confirmed that he has spoken to NFL commissioner Roger Goodell about his "interpretation" of league rules that ban videotaping of the opposing sideline.



    http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d802456c2&template=with-video&confirm=true

    First time I've seen Belichick and apologize in the same sentence.

    Also, what is there to misinterpret?

    Patriots under investigation for following rules, guidelines violations ...
    1. Page 105 of the Game Operations manual says: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." It later says: "All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

    2. And, a memo from Ray Anderson, NFL head of football operations, to head coaches and GMs on Sept. 6, 2006 said: "Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

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