The new audio of Williams before their playoff game with the Niners this year (found here: Greg Williams Saints Bounty Audio - YouTube )specifically the ACL talk made me think about Cedric Griffin.
He tore his ACL in the 2009 NFCCG against the Saints. Seems like a weird target for a bounty though, right? I thought so too, until I searched for video of the play, which I still can't find, turned up this. Which occurred in 2008, the last time we played the Saints before the NFCCG.
Watch Video Cedric Griffin Jacks Up Billy Miller on MNF at blinkx
Looks like a more likely target now. He was also completely taking his man out of the game that day. Whether it was Colston and Meachem were locked down. "But it was the Saints defense who were rewarded for the bounties." Griffin was hurt on a special teams play.
There's nothing certain, but the circumstantial evidence can't be ignored.
It's amazing how much we really would've had to do to win that game in OT.
Seems like a pretty small price to pay for cheating and getting a superbowl... I also blame the officials... 2 of those late hits on Favre ended up in Interceptions... should have been a penalty and called back... Could have won the game for us... makes me sick to think of this...
Originally Posted by tastywaves
More than anything else, I blame the refs for not enforcing the current rules of the game. They allowed much of the behavior that helped make the Saints campaign successful. You can argue (as I have ), that they almost encouraged the aggressive behavior of the Saints. I also blame the OL for making their task so easy. If I was coaching the Vikings on that day, I would have picked up the intensity as well and make the officials do their job. I firmly believe you play the game within the bounds that the refs are allowing on any given day. I'm not saying play to injure the opponents, just pushing the envelope to what the refs are calling.
Originally Posted by bleedpurple
Back to the bounty thing, coaching your players to intentionally injure your opponents is pretty bush league. I haven't listened to every tidbit of alleged evidence in this case, but it appears more apparent every day that they did not differentiate from big hits vs. playing dirty when rewarding players. I don't see Williams coaching again if they have hard evidence showing he was instructing players to injure opponents. Payton's punishment seemed harsh enough, but again other than being the leader, I'm not sure of his role.
At the highest level, it's an organization issue (Saints org that is). They hired Payton who hired Williams and are responsible for how he represents the Saint's organization and ultimately the NFL. I guess that's where the draft picks and the fines come in. If you want to gauge your level of justice in the matter, I would look at these penalties to determine your full level of satisfaction.
Wow nice research. I hate the Saints more than anything in the world. I swore in 2010 if i had to hear about how Hurricane Katrina effected the 2009 "superbowl champs" one more time i was going to puke. I hope that a player williams targeted (Brandon Jacobs ideally) tracks him down and beats him within an inch of his life. I hate that son of a bitch. and one more time... I HATE THE SAINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally Posted by Mr Anderson
True, true, the refs also F's us in a big way that day by not calling more of the crazy shit that was going down. Also true, we had 12 men in the huddle on the most important down of most of those guys careers, coaches and players.
But the more I hear about this shit, the more pissed off I get! I mean that is some down right evil ass nasty shit! Calling go hit a guy coming off a concussion in the head!?!?!?!?!?!?!!! Take out that ACL!?? WTF!???
We could see criminal charges and personal liability suits falling from the sky like rain once the rest of the world finds out who was all involved and to what extent. And you know the tape is out there.
Cedric Griffin has not been the same since that game.
Sidney Rice has not had healthy shoulders since that game.
And, the guy we begged out of retirement might never walk the same again...
Even if one of those 2nd round picks was coming our way, I don't think I'd be happy with their punishment. They not only Stole-Er-Bowl! They Took-Er-Jobs!!!
AND KEPT ON DOING IT FOR 2 MORE YEARS AFTERWARD DESPITE BEING WARNED!
SAINTS THEY AINT.
Sorry to be chiming in again so late on this, but I have to say it now since I haven't been able to get on since very early in March.
More and more evidence keeps surfacing which supports the claim that incentives were being offered for actually targeting and injuring key opposing players. Not just hitting them, not just "bringing the pain" or whatever you want to call it, but actually deliberately injuring them to the point of putting them out of the game.
In my original post in this thread, I stayed away from the (notably horrendous) officiating, because we'd already had that discussion many times over, and nothing more we could say will change anything. It was an enormous contributing factor in that one NFCCG, and a few others, but it was and is entirely separate from the "bounty" issue. Bad officiating is reprehensible, but it isn't criminal. Conspiracy to commit assault with intent to do bodily harm IS.
Anyone who knew about this pay-for-injury scheme is liable under the law for conspiracy, no matter what their part in it actually was. Simply the knowledge of it and the failure to do anything about it is enough.
If a Viking were found guilty of such an act, I would be equally as critical. It is simply something that a civilized being does not do.
I don't care that it's been going on forever, or that "everyone" does it. It's still wrong.
I do still expect individual player actions to be taken at some point. The whole point of what needs to be done is a strong deterrent against any future actions of a similar nature. Yes, punish the Saints and their coaches, management and ownership, if they knew about it. But also make it clear that such actions will no longer be tolerated. As I said in my first post, make it public that the punishments will escalate for future incidents.
It's true that $500,000 is not much of a penalty to an organization the size and value of an NFL franchise. Personally I think it should have been more like, maybe $5 million or so. But if it goes up significantly every time from here on out, then maybe someone will finally sit up and take notice.
Wrong is just wrong. You all know it, or should. You just don't go out there with the deliberate intent to harm another human being for pay. Worse, you don't OFFER to pay for such. Worst of all, you just don't make a habit of doing it everywhere you go, despite warnings and common sense.
We all know there's a fine line behind legal and illegal hits in the NFL. Players can get hurt on any play, legal or not. But when you go out there with the intent to injure, you not only increase the likelihood of such injury, you also increase the likelihood that any given injury could become career- or life-threatening.
Remember that, players. You might not just put someone out of the game. You might end his career. Or his life.
And you could be the next target.
Well how many players are punished and/or suspended in this act. Well the league seems to be taken their time. And in no rush. Until they have the facts straighten out.
Honestly, I think that Williams just said out loud what many coaches and probably players think to themselves. I know this may be a different take than the rest of what is in this thread (I only read the last few posts), but if you can gain an advantage by putting someone on the sideline I'd say 95% of the players would. Now, do they all want to injure someone that will debilitate them for their lifetime? No. Do they want to knock them out of the game for the day? I would say hell yes. I'm sure there are players that read injury reports and might target a specific area (ie head/concussion). I've heard about numerous lineman doing things in piles to try to get an advantage twist a leg, poke an eye, bend fingers, etc. Are those super serious things? No, but they could help gain an advantage.
I'm not saying what the Saints have been doing is right, but I would bet my house they are not the first (or last) team to have this kind of system. The difference is that their coach made it known and was stupid enough to have his speech while talking about it recorded.
Something I've learned in my life as a teacher. All kids at some point do bad things, it's just the dumb ones that get caught and punished. Saints = the dumb ones in this instance.