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  1. #11
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: NFL Players' Union Wins Federal Ruling Over $4 Bil

    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1090668
    Interesting I just talked to a guy that works at a unionized steel shop. The employees all took pay cuts, but the employer did allow them to see the books, atleast tell them what the profit was.
    Good example. Probably not a big shop and the owner was probably trying to validate why he was cutting everyones pay.

    Although he didn't have to show them the books, I bet he did to make the pay cuts more acceptable and used them as evidence he was loosing money. I don't think loosing money is an issue here. The issue here is the players want to see the books so they can see how much extra the owners of the business they are working in are getting so they can try to get pay raises.

    On a side note,

    Kindof of interesting to listen to Kirwan last night on the way home. Some guy called in and kept trying to say the players were "partners" in this with the owners.

    Kirwan stopped him right away and said that he had written alot of contracts while he was a GM and everyone of the said it was a "Employee" contract. Not a "partner" contract.

    I wonder why fans seem to think the players are anything more than employees of the owners of the teams and should be treated any differently than you or I when it comes to how wages are negotiated wether that be as a union member or a "Right to Work" employee.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #12
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: NFL Players' Union Wins Federal Ruling Over $4 Bil

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090689
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090608
    Quote Originally Posted by "marshallvike" #1090540
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090507
    Seriously?

    I ask the question again, how many of you asked your company to see their books so that you could figure out how much they were gonna pay you if they hired you?

    Same follow-up question if you did.......Did they hire you after you asked to see their books?

    Another thing that makes me scratch my head. "De-unionize" cause if your in a union you don't have any leverage......

    Do the players then stand up a new union afterward, and if so, why if the union doesn't do anything for them..........:blink:
    This article explains it fairly well. I know it is in the BR, but it was actually written by a Steelers columnist.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/485031-nfl-labor-talks-what-does-union-decertification-mean-for-the-nfl-and-nflpa

    quote;

    That same day, the NFLPA filed an antitrust lawsuit (Powell v. NFL) which it won, but was ultimately overturned in 1989 on appeal by the NFL.

    The appeals court judgment basically said that players had to pick between being a union and represented under labor laws, or to not unionize and pursue its antitrust rights as individuals.
    Again, as I told PF, let me try to say it in a different mannaer......

    Why was the union good in the past, but now, when it doesn't provide you any leverage, do you want to throw it under the bus and rely on the courts to get you more money?
    Because as a union, the Owners can vote to lock out the players...and the dispute is settled by the NLRB

    If the Union decertifies, then the Players can file an anti-trust suit which is settled in court.

    Problem is, from what I'm reading, the Owners can counter that the Union is decertifying in name only...

    Essentially, it's a tool to prevent a lock out.

    Caine
    Again, I got that.......Lets try another question......

    Why have a union then if you are not gonna be successful negotiating as a union, but rather, to rely on the courts to do it for you?

    On a side note, I think I'm gonna go get a lawyer and take my company to court for more money because their revenues are to high.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #13
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: NFL Players' Union Wins Federal Ruling Over $4 Bil

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090702
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1090668
    Interesting I just talked to a guy that works at a unionized steel shop. The employees all took pay cuts, but the employer did allow them to see the books, atleast tell them what the profit was.
    Good example. Probably not a big shop and the owner was probably trying to validate why he was cutting everyones pay.

    Although he didn't have to show them the books, I bet he did to make the pay cuts more acceptable and used them as evidence he was loosing money. I don't think loosing money is an issue here. The issue here is the players want to see the books so they can see how much extra the owners of the business they are working in are getting so they can try to get pay raises.

    On a side note,

    Kindof of interesting to listen to Kirwan last night on the way home. Some guy called in and kept trying to say the players were "partners" in this with the owners.

    Kirwan stopped him right away and said that he had written alot of contracts while he was a GM and everyone of the said it was a "Employee" contract. Not a "partner" contract.

    I wonder why fans seem to think the players are anything more than employees of the owners of the teams and should be treated any differently than you or I when it comes to how wages are negotiated wether that be as a union member or a "Right to Work" employee.
    Probably because in the entertainment business the owners need to have the right players to generate revenue and they can't train or hire just anyone and charge the same exorbitant rates or extort the communities for the types of facility subsidies they get.

    Just ask the Arena football league, the UFL or call Vince McMahon of the now defunct XFL and ask how all of the cut rate talent worked out for them:laugh:

  4. #14
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: NFL Players' Union Wins Federal Ruling Over $4 Bil

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090703
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090689
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090608
    Quote Originally Posted by "marshallvike" #1090540
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090507
    Seriously?

    I ask the question again, how many of you asked your company to see their books so that you could figure out how much they were gonna pay you if they hired you?

    Same follow-up question if you did.......Did they hire you after you asked to see their books?

    Another thing that makes me scratch my head. "De-unionize" cause if your in a union you don't have any leverage......

    Do the players then stand up a new union afterward, and if so, why if the union doesn't do anything for them..........:blink:
    This article explains it fairly well. I know it is in the BR, but it was actually written by a Steelers columnist.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/485031-nfl-labor-talks-what-does-union-decertification-mean-for-the-nfl-and-nflpa

    quote;

    That same day, the NFLPA filed an antitrust lawsuit (Powell v. NFL) which it won, but was ultimately overturned in 1989 on appeal by the NFL.

    The appeals court judgment basically said that players had to pick between being a union and represented under labor laws, or to not unionize and pursue its antitrust rights as individuals.
    Again, as I told PF, let me try to say it in a different mannaer......

    Why was the union good in the past, but now, when it doesn't provide you any leverage, do you want to throw it under the bus and rely on the courts to get you more money?
    Because as a union, the Owners can vote to lock out the players...and the dispute is settled by the NLRB

    If the Union decertifies, then the Players can file an anti-trust suit which is settled in court.

    Problem is, from what I'm reading, the Owners can counter that the Union is decertifying in name only...

    Essentially, it's a tool to prevent a lock out.

    Caine
    Again, I got that.......Lets try another question......

    Why have a union then if you are not gonna be successful negotiating as a union, but rather, to rely on the courts to do it for you?

    On a side note, I think I'm gonna go get a lawyer and take my company to court for more money because their revenues are to high.
    Because, in this particular case, being a Union can work against the Players. As a Union, many of the anti-trust laws no longer apply.

    Anti-trust laws are essentially laws against anti-competative behavior. But a Union is exactly that. You can't play in the NFL if you aren't in the Union. So, anti-trust laws are suspended when dealing with unions, and the NLRB (National Labor Relations Board) takes over.

    If the players decertify, however, they can now go after the owners for attempting to control the market through a lock out...which the owners will survive better then the players.

    Trouble is, if they decertify, as I said before, the owners will simply counter-sue on the basis that the decertification is in name only. That they are still acting as a collective body (Union).

    The NFL has been sued by companies for anti-trust reasons before, but the Players UNION could not do so...unless they decertify, in which case the players THEMSELVES can.

    Caine

  5. #15
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    Re: NFL Players' Union Wins Federal Ruling Over $4 Bil

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090702
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1090668
    Interesting I just talked to a guy that works at a unionized steel shop. The employees all took pay cuts, but the employer did allow them to see the books, atleast tell them what the profit was.
    Good example. Probably not a big shop and the owner was probably trying to validate why he was cutting everyones pay.

    Although he didn't have to show them the books, I bet he did to make the pay cuts more acceptable and used them as evidence he was loosing money. I don't think loosing money is an issue here. The issue here is the players want to see the books so they can see how much extra the owners of the business they are working in are getting so they can try to get pay raises.

    On a side note,

    Kindof of interesting to listen to Kirwan last night on the way home. Some guy called in and kept trying to say the players were "partners" in this with the owners.

    Kirwan stopped him right away and said that he had written alot of contracts while he was a GM and everyone of the said it was a "Employee" contract. Not a "partner" contract.

    I wonder why fans seem to think the players are anything more than employees of the owners of the teams and should be treated any differently than you or I when it comes to how wages are negotiated wether that be as a union member or a "Right to Work" employee.
    Individually they are employees. But the NFL is in a partnership with the players union(hence the revenue sharing).

    Most of the most successful companies in America allow there employees to share in the profits of the company. Sometimes they call it profit sharing, sometimes it's stock options. When the employees have a financial interest in the company they are generally better employees, and make the owners more money.

    It's all about the money. I don't blame either side for wanting more of it, I would too. (yes even if I was a billionaire owner or millionaire player I would still do everything I could for more.).

  6. #16
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    Re: NFL Players' Union Wins Federal Ruling Over $4 Bil

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090507
    Seriously?

    I ask the question again, how many of you asked your company to see their books so that you could figure out how much they were gonna pay you if they hired you?

    Same follow-up question if you did.......Did they hire you after you asked to see their books?

    Another thing that makes me scratch my head. "De-unionize" cause if your in a union you don't have any leverage......

    Do the players then stand up a new union afterward, and if so, why if the union doesn't do anything for them..........:blink:
    I worked for a company as a manager, the company was international and in north america they were losing money and under credit protection and unionized. After 2 years of a wage freezes the union wanted money or wanted to see the books, company showed the books and the next 1 years contract was a freeze, the next year the union wanted money and wouldn't accept another freeze (and had a strike vote) employees decided when push came to shove the decertified to avoid a strike. The company later sold of it divions bit by bit with the US division being the last to be sold.

    Now in the NFL it was the owners who ended the CBA early and want to rollback the money given to the players but they don't want to show the books.

    If GM or Ford wanted to cancel the union contract and want to rollback benefits and salaries the union would want to see the books and they have made concessions to help out when the economy was in the dumper.

    Now heres a another question, how many guys coming out of college are told by a group of employeers which employeer you get to work for, restrict you ability to elsewhere for what up to 5 or 6 years even if you only have a 2 or 3 year none guarateed contract and even if your fired all the other employeers get time to decide if they want to grab you at your current contract value before you can go out and shop your services.

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