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  1. #21
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: NFL needs full-time officials

    "AWZeus" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    "AWZeus" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    Watch the show and then you will know. The guy is more often then not obviously talking out of his asspipe. I still like the show, and sometimes you see a call you thought was bad and it turns out you didnt know the rule. Often though it is a ref's mistake.
    I don't get the NFL Network, as I mentioned previously in this thread.
    You TIVO it for me, burn it to a DVD and mail it to me and then I'll watch it.

    =Z=
    I'll think about it. If it cuts into my TIVO porn then you can forget about it. I never saw where you said you didn't have NFL network in this thread.
    You quoted the message where I wrote that.
    Scroll up.

    =Z=
    This!? "I've never seen the show, so I can't comment on that.
    But if they show that a call is correct within the confines of the rules book - how can you dispute that?"


    I've never seen Emril but I have the food network.

    EDIT~ Nevermind I found it. It was up there. Gottcha! You would love it. The refs suck.

  2. #22
    olson_10's Avatar
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    Re: NFL needs full-time officials

    "AWZeus" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    The reffing is pretty bad, if you have NFL network take a moment to watch the segment where they take 3 or so bad calls of the week and go over them.

    There are calls that change the outcomes of games, change history. You have a ref mis call the fricken coin toss and your telling me that is quality? That is the best there is?

    People have been calling for refs to become full-time for years. The only thing stopping it is the Union.
    Unfortunately (and I don't know if I should blame Charter or the NFL) I haven't had the NFL network since about March or so.

    In baseball, umps make "OUT" calls on phantom base tags 2 or 3 times a game.

    In basketball, travelling and palming are virtually non-existant calls, even though it happens all the time.

    In hockey, the obstruction penalty calls are a joke either for or against, depending on the crew.



    These people are humans - humans make mistakes.
    Sometimes these mistakes have an effect on the outcomes of the games.
    Just like any of the actions on individual plays have an effect on the outcomes of the games.

    How will having the officials in the NFL be full-time change that?
    During the 21 weeks of the season (pre-season and 17 weeks of regular) they will still only be reffing one game a week.
    And during the other 31 weeks of the year, how to you propose they train?
    Constant review of game films?
    Well - those films are not shot from the same angles and viewpoints of the refs, so how useful would that be?

    Red Cashion, former NFL official (now retired) thinks it wouldn't work.
    http://bengals.enquirer.com/2003/01/21/wwwben2d21.html

    Let's discuss.

    =Z=
    i sat thru the entire sens-leafs game last night, and couldnt believe some of the calls being made..it was just unbelievable how pathetic some of the holding and interference calls are these days
    People who see life as anything more than pure entertainment are missing the point.

  3. #23
    Benet's Avatar
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    Re: NFL needs full-time officials

    Just to warn you, making the referee's professional doesn't automatically make them perfect at calling penalties.

    Trust me on this, as a man who has watched professional referee's in the Premiership make bad call after bad call after bad call for 3 years since they became full-time.

  4. #24
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: NFL needs full-time officials

    "Benet" wrote:
    Just to warn you, making the referee's professional doesn't automatically make them perfect at calling penalties.

    Trust me on this, as a man who has watched professional referee's in the Premiership make bad call after bad call after bad call for 3 years since they became full-time.
    No doubt making part time refs full time will not erase all the bad calls. There will always be a human element to officiating. It will improve the mistakes, and at the end of the day that is the goal, and with the massive ammounts of money the NFL makes there is absolutely no reason to not make this move.

  5. #25
    Zeus's Avatar
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    Re: NFL needs full-time officials

    "Del" wrote:
    "Benet" wrote:
    Just to warn you, making the referee's professional doesn't automatically make them perfect at calling penalties.

    Trust me on this, as a man who has watched professional referee's in the Premiership make bad call after bad call after bad call for 3 years since they became full-time.
    No doubt making part time refs full time will not erase all the bad calls. There will always be a human element to officiating. It will improve the mistakes, and at the end of the day that is the goal, and with the massive ammounts of money the NFL makes there is absolutely no reason to not make this move.
    I just have respectfully disagree.
    I don't think making them full-time would do anything other than decrease the salary cap for the league (due to the massive increase in the budget for refs) and then have a bunch of guys sitting idle for 6 months out of the year because there aren't any games.

    Or do you propose that those guys work World League games?

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

  6. #26
    Benet's Avatar
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    Re: NFL needs full-time officials

    "AWZeus" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    "Benet" wrote:
    Just to warn you, making the referee's professional doesn't automatically make them perfect at calling penalties.

    Trust me on this, as a man who has watched professional referee's in the Premiership make bad call after bad call after bad call for 3 years since they became full-time.
    No doubt making part time refs full time will not erase all the bad calls. There will always be a human element to officiating. It will improve the mistakes, and at the end of the day that is the goal, and with the massive ammounts of money the NFL makes there is absolutely no reason to not make this move.
    I just have respectfully disagree.
    I don't think making them full-time would do anything other than decrease the salary cap for the league (due to the massive increase in the budget for refs) and then have a bunch of guys sitting idle for 6 months out of the year because there aren't any games.

    Or do you propose that those guys work World League games?

    =Z=
    I have to agree with Zeus on this one. The human error will be there regardless of whether the refs are professional or not. You can argue that by being professional they have more time to study and hone their skills, but I would counter that by saying you don't think they've honed their skills in the decade-or-more they've been working as refs before they make it to the top level of the sport they're officiating? We're talking about events that happen in the blink of an eye, no amount of film study or practicing is going to make a ref, by the time he has reached the NFL level, more likely to call holding or pass interference. The only thing film study and practicing can do for refs is help them learn tendencies of the teams and players they're officiating, and when they do that there's the possibility that due to their film study of teams, refs will call penalties that they THINK they saw because what they see on the field is very similar to what they saw in the film room when preparing for the game.

    And to be fair Del, you say that making refs professional will improve refeering, yet you make no point as to HOW.

    Like you, I used to be all-for making referees professional. Back in the days when the Premiership had part-time refs every mistake they made was blamed on them being part-time, and not being able to devote enough time to their other job on Saturdays. But now that refs here in England make £60,000 a year (plus bonuses for internationals and cup games) they're still making the same mistakes as before. Nobody thought about HOW making referees full-time would improve their performance on the field, and that's the problem the NFL now has with this argument. I've seen the PTI segments and the NFL Network segments regarding this subject, and NO-ONE has made a single reason for making refs full-time beyond "it will help reduce mistakes".

    Nobody seems to know how, though. Or if they do, they ain't tellin'.

  7. #27
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    Re: NFL needs full-time officials

    "Benet" wrote:
    "AWZeus" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    "Benet" wrote:
    Just to warn you, making the referee's professional doesn't automatically make them perfect at calling penalties.

    Trust me on this, as a man who has watched professional referee's in the Premiership make bad call after bad call after bad call for 3 years since they became full-time.
    No doubt making part time refs full time will not erase all the bad calls. There will always be a human element to officiating. It will improve the mistakes, and at the end of the day that is the goal, and with the massive ammounts of money the NFL makes there is absolutely no reason to not make this move.
    I just have respectfully disagree.
    I don't think making them full-time would do anything other than decrease the salary cap for the league (due to the massive increase in the budget for refs) and then have a bunch of guys sitting idle for 6 months out of the year because there aren't any games.

    Or do you propose that those guys work World League games?

    =Z=
    I have to agree with Zeus on this one. The human error will be there regardless of whether the refs are professional or not. You can argue that by being professional they have more time to study and hone their skills, but I would counter that by saying you don't think they've honed their skills in the decade-or-more they've been working as refs before they make it to the top level of the sport they're officiating? We're talking about events that happen in the blink of an eye, no amount of film study or practicing is going to make a ref, by the time he has reached the NFL level, more likely to call holding or pass interference. The only thing film study and practicing can do for refs is help them learn tendencies of the teams and players they're officiating, and when they do that there's the possibility that due to their film study of teams, refs will call penalties that they THINK they saw because what they see on the field is very similar to what they saw in the film room when preparing for the game.

    And to be fair Del, you say that making refs professional will improve refeering, yet you make no point as to HOW.

    Like you, I used to be all-for making referees professional. Back in the days when the Premiership had part-time refs every mistake they made was blamed on them being part-time, and not being able to devote enough time to their other job on Saturdays. But now that refs here in England make £60,000 a year (plus bonuses for internationals and cup games) they're still making the same mistakes as before. Nobody thought about HOW making referees full-time would improve their performance on the field, and that's the problem the NFL now has with this argument. I've seen the PTI segments and the NFL Network segments regarding this subject, and NO-ONE has made a single reason for making refs full-time beyond "it will help reduce mistakes".

    Nobody seems to know how, though. Or if they do, they ain't tellin'.
    If they were held more accountable for their calls, they wouldn't be so quick to make some of the calls & I do believe they will be honed.

    Make too many wrong calls & your out on your keester. Sure they could do that now, but they would just go back to their regular 9-5 & still have their regular job.

    If your livelyhood depended solely on your umpiring job & you had no other income to fall back on, wouldn't you bone up on your skills & be a little more sure of yourself before you throw the yellow hanky?

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  8. #28
    Benet's Avatar
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    Re: NFL needs full-time officials

    "singersp" wrote:
    If they were held more accountable for their calls, they wouldn't be so quick to make some of the calls & I do believe they will be honed.

    Make too many wrong calls & your out on your keester. Sure they could do that now, but they would just go back to their regular 9-5 & still have their regular job.

    If your livelyhood depended solely on your umpiring job & you had no other income to fall back on, wouldn't you bone up on your skills & be a little more sure of yourself before you throw the yellow hanky?
    Using your logic, surely officials would be more nervous and hesitant about calling penalties? That would only compound the problem. Imagine a situation where the play is called dead, then a flag is thrown out as both teams are lining up for the next play for a holding penalty which one of the refs was hesitant about calling. That would only serve to annoy the fans, the players, and the coaches. I don't think refs intentionally throw out flags on calls they don't see, which is what you're implying when you say they're quick to make the calls they do. I also don't agree with the argument that because officials are professional they're more likely to hone their skills. My thinking is, if they're not adequately prepared to officiate a game once they've made it to the professional ranks, a journey which as I said can take more than a decade, then a few more hours during the week is not going to make a noticeable difference. I'm not saying refs SHOULDN'T keep up with the game, of course they should, but threatening them (as you hint at) isn't the way to make a man better at his job. That isn't to say they shouldn't be accountable, but they already are in the current system. It's already been established that the NFL reviews dodgy calls and punish refs if the calls are really bad.

    We have to remember there can't be that many officials who are good enough to ref in the NFL, or even want to. Sure, you can try and convince college refs to move to the pro's but then you have to educate them in the rule differences to the point where they can make calls in a fraction of a second. It's not as simple as saying "sack that guy and promote that guy."

    I'm experiencing this in England right now and it isn't improving standards as you'd think, which leads me to believe that, professional or not, refs are ALWAYS going to make mistakes at the top level.

  9. #29
    sleepagent is offline Hall of Famer
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    Re: NFL needs full-time officials

    I worked with a guy who's Father was an NFL Official.
    They make pretty decent coinage ($100K+) for part-time work.

    I don't think the answer is full time Ref's.


    I think the answer is instant replay on EVERYTHING, but limiting a coaches ability to challenge to 3 calls (Whether they are right or worng).
    That way a team can have game changing plays reviewed, but we don't get bogged down with reviewing everything!

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  10. #30
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    Re: NFL needs full-time officials

    "sleepagent" wrote:
    I worked with a guy who's Father was an NFL Official.
    They make pretty decent coinage ($100K+) for part-time work.
    I believe your co-workers father was lying to you. If he made the highest possible salary for NFL officials, he would be making $70,000. My guess is he made closer to the $45,000 range.

    The National Football League (NFL) pays referees anywhere from $25,000 to $70,000 per season. When you consider that the league plays 16 games and referees are considered part-time employees, you get a better sense of the disparity. But do not feel so bad for them, not only are there only 16 games in the schedule, they also get one-week intervals.
    http://www.askmen.com/sports/business_60/77b_sports_business.html

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