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  1. #11
    jmcdon00's Avatar
    jmcdon00 is offline Jersey Retired Snake Champion, Moto Trial Fest 2: Mountain Pack Champion, LL City Truck 2 Champion, Arithmetic sequence Champion, Troops Tower Defense Champion
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    Re: NFL Defensive Line Profiles

    "Mr" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    Anyone else notice that there were (other than 3 Vikings) very few reps from the NFC North in this list and the ones that are listed don't really worry me.

    Heres to dominating our division, winning a few easy "Non Conference" games and winnning the division.

    On a side Note:

    Phat Pat should have been on that list if Kevin was on there.



    Look, I'm not hating on Kevin, and I don't care how many times you guys claim it was because he was double teamed so much, Kevins numbers continue to decline while Phat Pats continue to get better......

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/stats?team=min

    Great players beat double teams my friends.
    Hist tackles are down, his tackles for loss are down etc etc etc.
    He really needs to step up this year, collapse the pocket and flush the QB to the DE's or we will still struggle with respect to putting pressure on the QB in passing situations.
    Not on the line they don't, especially on the interior.

    To beat the double team, or at least the way I was taught, is to "punch the ground." You lower yourself as much as possible, to get their quickly, you "punch" the ground, which also takes you down. Taking you out of the play. It creates a nice little pile up and really screws up blocking assignments, but you're not making a tackle, especially a sack.

    It's damn near impossible to "split the double team" especially at the NFL level. I know Kevin Williams is tremendously big, athletic, and talented. But he's not as big or strong as two tremendously big, talented linemen. And his size actually hurts him when splitting a double team. Maybe you'll see guys like Jason Taylor and Dwight Freeney pulling that one off, but they're 50+ pounds lighter than Williams.
    Good points, I concur. Reminds me of a show I watch not long ago about the time it takes a defensive lineman to get to the quarterback compared to the time it takes a QB to get rid of the ball. Basically unless a quick player is completely unblocked he doesn't stand a chance if the QB gets the ball out on time.
    [youtube=425,350]En6cTw1nGSo&hl[/youtube]

  2. #12
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: NFL Defensive Line Profiles

    "jmcdon00" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    Anyone else notice that there were (other than 3 Vikings) very few reps from the NFC North in this list and the ones that are listed don't really worry me.

    Heres to dominating our division, winning a few easy "Non Conference" games and winnning the division.

    On a side Note:

    Phat Pat should have been on that list if Kevin was on there.



    Look, I'm not hating on Kevin, and I don't care how many times you guys claim it was because he was double teamed so much, Kevins numbers continue to decline while Phat Pats continue to get better......

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/stats?team=min

    Great players beat double teams my friends.
    Hist tackles are down, his tackles for loss are down etc etc etc.
    He really needs to step up this year, collapse the pocket and flush the QB to the DE's or we will still struggle with respect to putting pressure on the QB in passing situations.
    Not on the line they don't, especially on the interior.

    To beat the double team, or at least the way I was taught, is to "punch the ground." You lower yourself as much as possible, to get their quickly, you "punch" the ground, which also takes you down. Taking you out of the play. It creates a nice little pile up and really screws up blocking assignments, but you're not making a tackle, especially a sack.

    It's gol 'darnit near impossible to "split the double team" especially at the NFL level. I know Kevin Williams is tremendously big, athletic, and talented. But he's not as big or strong as two tremendously big, talented linemen. And his size actually hurts him when splitting a double team. Maybe you'll see guys like Jason Taylor and Dwight Freeney pulling that one off, but they're 50+ pounds lighter than Williams.
    Good points, I concur. Reminds me of a show I watch not long ago about the time it takes a defensive lineman to get to the quarterback compared to the time it takes a QB to get rid of the ball. Basically unless a quick player is completely unblocked he doesn't stand a chance if the QB gets the ball out on time.
    [youtube=425,350]En6cTw1nGSo&hl[/youtube]
    Let me clarify.....

    I don't necessarily want him to get to the QB but I do want him to collapse the pocket.
    Double teamed or not, he should be able to do that on a more consistent basis.


    With the LB'rs dropping into coverage, CB's and S's in thier zones, the QB shouldn't be able to get the ball out off of his first or second read.
    By that time the DE's should be around the T's and the DT should be pushing the G's/C's/FB's into the QB's face (resulting in jump ball passes).

    End all to be all is a Sack, flushed QB who runs for little/no gain, poorly thrown ball cause the QB is on the move or a pass thrown away.

    Again, Kevin needs to step up this year and do that a bit more consistently than some of you guys seem to think he does.

    Quick note, take a look at his INT's this year.
    Were the hell was he when he caught them/knocked them down.
    Sure the hell wasn't in the back field collapsing the pocket.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #13
    jmcdon00's Avatar
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    Re: NFL Defensive Line Profiles

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "jmcdon00" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    Anyone else notice that there were (other than 3 Vikings) very few reps from the NFC North in this list and the ones that are listed don't really worry me.

    Heres to dominating our division, winning a few easy "Non Conference" games and winnning the division.

    On a side Note:

    Phat Pat should have been on that list if Kevin was on there.



    Look, I'm not hating on Kevin, and I don't care how many times you guys claim it was because he was double teamed so much, Kevins numbers continue to decline while Phat Pats continue to get better......

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/stats?team=min

    Great players beat double teams my friends.
    Hist tackles are down, his tackles for loss are down etc etc etc.
    He really needs to step up this year, collapse the pocket and flush the QB to the DE's or we will still struggle with respect to putting pressure on the QB in passing situations.
    Not on the line they don't, especially on the interior.

    To beat the double team, or at least the way I was taught, is to "punch the ground." You lower yourself as much as possible, to get their quickly, you "punch" the ground, which also takes you down. Taking you out of the play. It creates a nice little pile up and really screws up blocking assignments, but you're not making a tackle, especially a sack.

    It's gol 'darnit near impossible to "split the double team" especially at the NFL level. I know Kevin Williams is tremendously big, athletic, and talented. But he's not as big or strong as two tremendously big, talented linemen. And his size actually hurts him when splitting a double team. Maybe you'll see guys like Jason Taylor and Dwight Freeney pulling that one off, but they're 50+ pounds lighter than Williams.
    Good points, I concur. Reminds me of a show I watch not long ago about the time it takes a defensive lineman to get to the quarterback compared to the time it takes a QB to get rid of the ball. Basically unless a quick player is completely unblocked he doesn't stand a chance if the QB gets the ball out on time.
    [youtube=425,350]En6cTw1nGSo&hl[/youtube]
    Let me clarify.....

    I don't necessarily want him to get to the QB but I do want him to collapse the pocket.
    Double teamed or not, he should be able to do that on a more consistent basis.


    With the LB'rs dropping into coverage, CB's and S's in thier zones, the QB shouldn't be able to get the ball out off of his first or second read.
    By that time the DE's should be around the T's and the DT should be pushing the G's/C's/FB's into the QB's face (resulting in jump ball passes).

    End all to be all is a Sack, flushed QB who runs for little/no gain, poorly thrown ball cause the QB is on the move or a pass thrown away.

    Again, Kevin needs to step up this year and do that a bit more consistently than some of you guys seem to think he does.

    Quick note, take a look at his INT's this year.
    Were the hell was he when he caught them/knocked them down.
    Sure the hell wasn't in the back field collapsing the pocket.
    I would say that if Kevin can take on 2 players then he is doing more than his share. Now you have a 9 on 10 situation. If Allen gets double too then you have 9 on 7 situation. Williams should get more pressure with fewer double teams, but if he does get doubled then I don't expect him to push 2 guys around, I think that is asking too much. I think part of the lack of pass rush comes from putting so much emphasis on stopping the run. If williams puts his head down and just runs as hard as he can towards the quarterback it is easy to run around him, sometimes to mess with the offense he needs to do a delayed rush, or watch the play develop and then react(ala intercept the ball).

  4. #14
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: NFL Defensive Line Profiles

    "jmcdon00" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "jmcdon00" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    Anyone else notice that there were (other than 3 Vikings) very few reps from the NFC North in this list and the ones that are listed don't really worry me.

    Heres to dominating our division, winning a few easy "Non Conference" games and winnning the division.

    On a side Note:

    Phat Pat should have been on that list if Kevin was on there.



    Look, I'm not hating on Kevin, and I don't care how many times you guys claim it was because he was double teamed so much, Kevins numbers continue to decline while Phat Pats continue to get better......

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/stats?team=min

    Great players beat double teams my friends.
    Hist tackles are down, his tackles for loss are down etc etc etc.
    He really needs to step up this year, collapse the pocket and flush the QB to the DE's or we will still struggle with respect to putting pressure on the QB in passing situations.
    Not on the line they don't, especially on the interior.

    To beat the double team, or at least the way I was taught, is to "punch the ground." You lower yourself as much as possible, to get their quickly, you "punch" the ground, which also takes you down. Taking you out of the play. It creates a nice little pile up and really screws up blocking assignments, but you're not making a tackle, especially a sack.

    It's gol 'darnit near impossible to "split the double team" especially at the NFL level. I know Kevin Williams is tremendously big, athletic, and talented. But he's not as big or strong as two tremendously big, talented linemen. And his size actually hurts him when splitting a double team. Maybe you'll see guys like Jason Taylor and Dwight Freeney pulling that one off, but they're 50+ pounds lighter than Williams.
    Good points, I concur. Reminds me of a show I watch not long ago about the time it takes a defensive lineman to get to the quarterback compared to the time it takes a QB to get rid of the ball. Basically unless a quick player is completely unblocked he doesn't stand a chance if the QB gets the ball out on time.
    [youtube=425,350]En6cTw1nGSo&hl[/youtube]
    Let me clarify.....

    I don't necessarily want him to get to the QB but I do want him to collapse the pocket.
    Double teamed or not, he should be able to do that on a more consistent basis.


    With the LB'rs dropping into coverage, CB's and S's in thier zones, the QB shouldn't be able to get the ball out off of his first or second read.
    By that time the DE's should be around the T's and the DT should be pushing the G's/C's/FB's into the QB's face (resulting in jump ball passes).

    End all to be all is a Sack, flushed QB who runs for little/no gain, poorly thrown ball cause the QB is on the move or a pass thrown away.

    Again, Kevin needs to step up this year and do that a bit more consistently than some of you guys seem to think he does.

    Quick note, take a look at his INT's this year.
    Were the hell was he when he caught them/knocked them down.
    Sure the hell wasn't in the back field collapsing the pocket.
    I would say that if Kevin can take on 2 players then he is doing more than his share. Now you have a 9 on 10 situation. If Allen gets double too then you have 9 on 7 situation. Williams should get more pressure with fewer double teams, but if he does get doubled then I don't expect him to push 2 guys around, I think that is asking too much. I think part of the lack of pass rush comes from putting so much emphasis on stopping the run. If williams puts his head down and just runs as hard as he can towards the quarterback it is easy to run around him, sometimes to mess with the offense he needs to do a delayed rush, or watch the play develop and then react(ala intercept the ball).
    And yet Phat Pats numbers continue to rise.

    Look my friend, I am not trying to discount his ability to eat up blockers, my point is that he needs to collapse the pocket in passing situations.
    In those instances he isn't stopping the run/run focused. His role in that situation is to push his man/men 3 or 4 steps into the pocket in an attempt to push/flush the QB to the ends.

    We continue to harp on the lack of productivity at the End position over the last few years (and rightly so) but we can't ignore the fact that QB's have been able to just step up into the pocket, avoid the rush and deliver the ball to thier 2nd, 3rd or even 4th progression/read.

    Again, not trying to negate his effectiveness but rather to point out a flaw in his game.
    :
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  5. #15
    ItalianStallion's Avatar
    ItalianStallion is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: NFL Defensive Line Profiles

    That's a fantasy football list not a ranking of the ability of these players.
    It's based on projected stats, not overall impact.


    I m like a Ja Rule poster, cause I'm off the wall.

  6. #16
    mountainviking's Avatar
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    Re: NFL Defensive Line Profiles

    Cool video!!
    Very interesting...You'd think we could get that extra .2 seconds of blocking out of McKinnie and Cook...wouldn't you?
    Oh wait, TJack's steps and release probably isn't quite that fast, huh?


    Got to love the fact we've got 3 on the list, the Top guy, and 2 in the top 13!!
    On the other hand, it Looks like we'll be facing 22 of those 45 in the regular season.

    As far as Kevin goes, I thought the author summed it up pretty nicely...

    The rare athleticism for a tackle is evident in the six or more pass breakups that Williams has posted in each of the past four seasons. Twice he picked off a pass last year at took it to the house. As for the sacks, Williams reached double digits in that category in each of his first two seasons, 2003 and 2004.
    Those also happened to be the last two times a Viking end reached double-digit sacks.
    Sometimes, those pass breakups are him getting a hand up in the backfield, and closing the QB's passing lane...others, I almost wonder, if our DTs aren't instructed to stop the run first, if schematically, they are asked to play back somewhat.
    I mean, if you cant' get through the double team, step back and put your hands up anyway, right?
    Anyway, as purported here, I expect Kevin to have a much better year given the attention that Jared is going to draw.

    Overall, Our DT depth is a concern.
    Spencer Johnson was a pretty good backup who made some plays in the rotation.
    IF TJack and Co. can keep the chains moving and the offense on the field, no problem.
    BUT, in games where our Offense struggles, our defense gets tired, and I'm afraid that the Williams won't be able to go full tilt toward the end of some games...and, that our depth/rotation there may be lacking.


    I was huge for taking Trevor Laws in the 2nd...who as it turns out, ended up going to Philly with our pick there...since we traded up for Tyrell.
    I like the pick a lot, mostly for the future, but think that Laws would have most likely contributed more in year 1 as part of the DL rotation...but, down the road, I like Tyrell's upside more, as Laws does seem a bit small to really be considered, Phat Pat's eventual replacement.
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

    "Balance it on end and thats the third side of the coin!!" -wookiefoot

  7. #17
    Mr Anderson's Avatar
    Mr Anderson is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: NFL Defensive Line Profiles

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "jmcdon00" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    Anyone else notice that there were (other than 3 Vikings) very few reps from the NFC North in this list and the ones that are listed don't really worry me.

    Heres to dominating our division, winning a few easy "Non Conference" games and winnning the division.

    On a side Note:

    Phat Pat should have been on that list if Kevin was on there.



    Look, I'm not hating on Kevin, and I don't care how many times you guys claim it was because he was double teamed so much, Kevins numbers continue to decline while Phat Pats continue to get better......

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/stats?team=min

    Great players beat double teams my friends.
    Hist tackles are down, his tackles for loss are down etc etc etc.
    He really needs to step up this year, collapse the pocket and flush the QB to the DE's or we will still struggle with respect to putting pressure on the QB in passing situations.
    Not on the line they don't, especially on the interior.

    To beat the double team, or at least the way I was taught, is to "punch the ground." You lower yourself as much as possible, to get their quickly, you "punch" the ground, which also takes you down. Taking you out of the play. It creates a nice little pile up and really screws up blocking assignments, but you're not making a tackle, especially a sack.

    It's gol 'darnit near impossible to "split the double team" especially at the NFL level. I know Kevin Williams is tremendously big, athletic, and talented. But he's not as big or strong as two tremendously big, talented linemen. And his size actually hurts him when splitting a double team. Maybe you'll see guys like Jason Taylor and Dwight Freeney pulling that one off, but they're 50+ pounds lighter than Williams.
    Good points, I concur. Reminds me of a show I watch not long ago about the time it takes a defensive lineman to get to the quarterback compared to the time it takes a QB to get rid of the ball. Basically unless a quick player is completely unblocked he doesn't stand a chance if the QB gets the ball out on time.
    [youtube=425,350]En6cTw1nGSo&hl[/youtube]
    Let me clarify.....

    I don't necessarily want him to get to the QB but I do want him to collapse the pocket.
    Double teamed or not, he should be able to do that on a more consistent basis.


    With the LB'rs dropping into coverage, CB's and S's in thier zones, the QB shouldn't be able to get the ball out off of his first or second read.
    By that time the DE's should be around the T's and the DT should be pushing the G's/C's/FB's into the QB's face (resulting in jump ball passes).

    End all to be all is a Sack, flushed QB who runs for little/no gain, poorly thrown ball cause the QB is on the move or a pass thrown away.

    Again, Kevin needs to step up this year and do that a bit more consistently than some of you guys seem to think he does.

    Quick note, take a look at his INT's this year.
    Were the hell was he when he caught them/knocked them down.
    Sure the hell wasn't in the back field collapsing the pocket.
    I know you're just pointing out a flaw Marr, but I don't think it's a valid flaw to point out. I think it's unfair to expect a consistent collapse of the pocket against double teams, especially on the interior of the line. There isn't a way for him to escape blocks laterally like a defensive end could because of the crowded nature of the interior. And any lateral movement he makes can only be to one side(because of the double team), now let's say he's double teamed by the Left Guard and Center.



























    S





    S























    OLB


    MLB



    OLB

    CB


















    DE



    KW



    DT



    DE
















    CB
    WR


















    LT


    LG

    C



    RG

    RT

    TE














    WR



















    TE







    QB






























    RB

    He starts by playing his A Gap assignment, attacking the inside shoulder of the LG, trying to get by either using rip/swim technique or any other move in his repertoire. However the center gets there before he can come through. He now has the center and guard hip to hip in front of him, there is virtually no way to split this double team. He decides to move laterally towards the sideline, the guard sees this occuring and turns his ass towards the same sideline KW is moving to. The double team is now an L shape.
























































































    LG KW







































    C



    DT




































    DE














    RG



    DE




















    LT






    QB








    RT

    This double team is now splittable, he can get through the "corner of the L" if you understand my terminology.
    However, time's up, the ball's gone.

    But using his power he still managed to force the two defenders 2-3 yards back from the line of scrimmage, which pressures the quarterback still, imagine basically a 900 pound meat wall moving towards you. If you're 5 yards back, and that wall moves 3 yards towards you, you can't ignore it.

    He showed this in his two interception returns for TDs, where he was in fact, 2-3 yards deep in the backfield, although the rest of the dline was even deeper.

    To show this I made these two beauties(The links are to video):
    Week 1 vs Atlanta:
    [img width=450 height=154]http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh181/eja642/KwillINTATL.jpg[/img]

    Week 14 vs San Francisco:
    [img width=450 height=155]http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh181/eja642/KwillINTSF.jpg[/img]

    Edit: Photobucket or PPO automatically resized the images, so if you want clearer ones I can provide them through attachment.

  8. #18
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: NFL Defensive Line Profiles

    Mr A.
    Props man.
    That has got to be one of the best posts ever............

    Couple of points (as always).

    a.
    First Video.
    The staff actually uses him in a Zone Blitz package were he doesnt rush but actually takes up the middle.
    Notice that the LOS is at the 55 and thats were he is standing when he gets the INT.
    The pressure comes from the two Linebackers (Chad/EJ) and Kevin fills thier zone when they vacate it.

    b.
    Second Video.
    Basically the same scheme.....Zone blitz with one of the DT's dropping back into the void vacated by the LB's.
    In this case it was Phat Pat staying back and Kevin who rushed.
    Typical stuff were he can't get back in time and just puts his hands up and jumps like we are all taught to do.

    Regardless, those are two good examples but aren't really what I'm talking about.
    They are obviously two plays that resulted from adjustments our coaching staff (yes they do make them even though some people say they don't) made because we weren't getting pressure from the edge or from the middle.
    In other words, DT's weren't consistently collapsing the pocket.

    I will go look and see if I can find some vids (I am at home) and show you some examples of DTs who can/do push double teams back into the QB.

    Again, excellent post my friend.
    Excellent post.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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