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  1. #31
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    Re:NFL concerned by marijuana 'epidemic' in draft

    C Mac D wrote:
    NodakPaul wrote:
    C Mac D wrote:
    NodakPaul wrote:
    C Mac D wrote:
    According to one veteran club personnel man, 10 or 11 players who carry first-round draft grades on their board this year have been red-flagged for marijuana use in college, an estimate echoed by two clubs' head coaches. Another NFL head coach estimated that "one-third' of the players on his club's draft board had some sort of history with marijuana use and would thus require an extra level of evaluation as part of the pre-draft scouting process.
    I wonder how many of those scouts went home and had some alcohol later.

    I wonder which is more dangerous, pot or alcohol.

    I wonder which is linked to more deaths.

    I wonder...
    Base rate fallacy

    While I don't disagree with you about the limited dangers of pot, trying to claim that alcohol is more dangerous simply because it has been linked to more deaths than pot is a faulty comparision. Alcohol has a significantly higher usage rate, and so would naturally be linked to more deaths. It doesn't necessarily mean it is more dangerous. The common cold kills more people each year than AIDS does, but if given the choice I would take the cold any day.
    You think alcohol is more commonly used, but I also think you don't realize how many people smoke pot. Thousands, upon thousands of college students (also millions of adults) smoke weed across the country. To simply say, "The usage of alcohol is greater" ignores the debilitating effects of drinking and is simply not looking at the facts.

    In any case, here are the numbers... people can decide for themselves.

    2008
    Total Road Deaths: 37,261
    Drunk Driving Deaths: 13,846
    Percentage: 37%
    General Marijuana Causes of Death last year: 0

    http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30
    http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics.html
    http://www.madd.org/about-us/about-us/statistics.aspx

    You may also find this interesting, Nodak:

    http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/node/53

    3.) The DEA's Administrative Law Judge, Francis Young concluded: "In strict medical terms marijuana is far safer than many foods we commonly consume. For example, eating 10 raw potatoes can result in a toxic response. By comparison, it is physically impossible to eat enough marijuana to induce death. Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within the supervised routine of medical care.:

    Source:
    US Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement Administration, "In the Matter of Marijuana Rescheduling Petition," [Docket #86-22], (September 6, 1988), p. 57.
    http://www.iowamedicalmarijuana.org/pdfs/young.pdf
    In conclusion, don't question me about marijuana... but here's some more info for ya... with cited sources, again.

    http://www.drugpolicy.org/marijuana/factsmyths/#accidents

    Myth: Marijuana Use is a Major Cause Of Highway Accidents. Like alcohol, marijuana impairs psychomotor function and decreases driving ability. If marijuana use increases, an increase in of traffic fatalities is inevitable.

    Fact: There is no compelling evidence that marijuana contributes substantially to traffic accidents and fatalities. At some doses, marijuana affects perception and psychomotor performances- changes which could impair driving ability. However, in driving studies, marijuana produces little or no car-handling impairment- consistently less than produced by low moderate doses of alcohol and many legal medications. In contrast to alcohol, which tends to increase risky driving practices, marijuana tends to make subjects more cautious. Surveys of fatally injured drivers show that when THC is detected in the blood, alcohol is almost always detected as well. For some individuals, marijuana may play a role in bad driving. The overall rate of highway accidents appears not to be significantly affected by marijuana's widespread use in society.

    *Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse. “Legalization: Panacea or Pandora’s Box”. New York. (1995):36.

    *Swan, Neil. “A Look at Marijuana’s Harmful Effects.” NIDA Notes. 9.2 (1994): 14.

    *Moskowitz, Herbert and Robert Petersen. Marijuana and Driving: A Review. Rockville: American Council for Drug Education, 1982. 7.

    *Mann, Peggy. Marijuana Alert. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1985. 265.
    Again, I don't disagree about the limited dangers of pot. I just disagree with the blanket statement that alcohol is more dangerous because it is linked to more deaths. While the study you cited was solid (and informative), it only dispells the fact that pot is a factor in traffic accidents -something that I didn't believe in the first place. Pot is unregulated, and that in itself makes it more dangerous than most of the regulated drugs, including alcohol. There are also very few studies on the long term effects of smoking pot, and the ones that exist rely on self reporting for usage rates at best.
    Maybe you missed the part that said there is no level of marijuana that can be consumed that would cause an overdose? You can easily die of alcohol poisoning.

    You are only reading what you want to accept.
    You obviously don't know what my opinion on legalizing merijuana is - or you wouldn't be trying to argue with me so much.

    Like I keep saying, I don't think that marijuana is "dangerous" per sea. But trying to justify the legalization of marijuana by comparing it to problems associated with alcohol is a poor comparision. One literally has nothing to do with the other.

    Back to the problem with the unregulated sale of pot - this in itself gives pot the potential to be much more dangerous than alcohol. Now I realize that lacing pot is rare, and when it is done it is usually done at the user level. When pot is laced from teh dealer, it can include anything from cocaine, crack, PCP, or even embalming fluid. There HAVE been deaths linked to the use of laced MJ. There have also been deaths that have occured as a direct result of the sale of marijuana. All of these problems could likely be fixed through regulation.

    Now, to be more precise about the level of THC required to cause an overdose - it is possible to overdose on ANY drug. With THC, it would take nearly 40,000 times the amount needed to become intoxicated, and it is nearly impossible to consume that much through standard means. With alcohol it only takes about 5 to 10 times the amount to overdose, which is more than possible.
    http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=000884
    http://stackarticles.blogspot.com/2008_02_01_archive.html

    Don't act like you are the only one who knows the facts behind marijuana. There are valid reasons for supporting the legalization of it. But trying to use the "it's better than alcohol" argument doesn't work. Not only are you comparing inequatable data sets, but the premise of something being legal just because something else is is a bad basis to start from.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  2. #32
    C Mac D's Avatar
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    Re:NFL concerned by marijuana 'epidemic' in draft

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Whens the last time you've heard of someone getting in a bar fight and killing someone with a doobie as opposed to a bottle?
    lol... Just read this, funny mental image.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  3. #33
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re:NFL concerned by marijuana 'epidemic' in draft

    jmcdon00 wrote:
    Formo wrote:
    Flidais wrote:
    Formo wrote:
    What does the legalization of weed have anything to do with the league's policies on it's use?

    It could be perfectly legal, but if the NFL still has it as a banned substance.. Guess what? You still gonna get slapped.

    But, all that's a moot point.. Weed's still illegal. Unless you have a doctors note and live in a state that has the medical usage of pot legalized, you light up at your own risk.

    And I don't/won't feel a bit sorry for ya, either.
    So to paraphrase, if your doctor feels medical marijuana is your best option for dealing with your health issue...

    Tough shit.
    If your potential employer (in this case, the NFL) still has it as a banned substance.. Simply put.. Yes.
    +1, The employer makes the rules. You either follow them or suffer the consequenses.
    Doctors occassionally recommend steroids to people for asthma, In the nfl that will cause a suspension.
    Thats quite different. Asthma medicine does not contain anabolic steroids, which are illegal for use. It instead contains a different form called Corticosteroids, which is a hormone naturally produced in your body. All it does is help clear inflammation in the airway. You can take all the puffers you want and won't test positive for steroids in the NFL, as it doesn't build muscle or enhance performance in any way (aside from, of course, allowing you to breathe normally)

    I know, I used to take them

  4. #34
    C Mac D's Avatar
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    Re:NFL concerned by marijuana 'epidemic' in draft

    NodakPaul wrote:
    C Mac D wrote:
    NodakPaul wrote:
    C Mac D wrote:
    NodakPaul wrote:
    C Mac D wrote:
    According to one veteran club personnel man, 10 or 11 players who carry first-round draft grades on their board this year have been red-flagged for marijuana use in college, an estimate echoed by two clubs' head coaches. Another NFL head coach estimated that "one-third' of the players on his club's draft board had some sort of history with marijuana use and would thus require an extra level of evaluation as part of the pre-draft scouting process.
    I wonder how many of those scouts went home and had some alcohol later.

    I wonder which is more dangerous, pot or alcohol.

    I wonder which is linked to more deaths.

    I wonder...
    Base rate fallacy

    While I don't disagree with you about the limited dangers of pot, trying to claim that alcohol is more dangerous simply because it has been linked to more deaths than pot is a faulty comparision. Alcohol has a significantly higher usage rate, and so would naturally be linked to more deaths. It doesn't necessarily mean it is more dangerous. The common cold kills more people each year than AIDS does, but if given the choice I would take the cold any day.
    You think alcohol is more commonly used, but I also think you don't realize how many people smoke pot. Thousands, upon thousands of college students (also millions of adults) smoke weed across the country. To simply say, "The usage of alcohol is greater" ignores the debilitating effects of drinking and is simply not looking at the facts.

    In any case, here are the numbers... people can decide for themselves.

    2008
    Total Road Deaths: 37,261
    Drunk Driving Deaths: 13,846
    Percentage: 37%
    General Marijuana Causes of Death last year: 0

    http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30
    http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics.html
    http://www.madd.org/about-us/about-us/statistics.aspx

    You may also find this interesting, Nodak:

    http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/node/53

    3.) The DEA's Administrative Law Judge, Francis Young concluded: "In strict medical terms marijuana is far safer than many foods we commonly consume. For example, eating 10 raw potatoes can result in a toxic response. By comparison, it is physically impossible to eat enough marijuana to induce death. Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within the supervised routine of medical care.:

    Source:
    US Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement Administration, "In the Matter of Marijuana Rescheduling Petition," [Docket #86-22], (September 6, 1988), p. 57.
    http://www.iowamedicalmarijuana.org/pdfs/young.pdf
    In conclusion, don't question me about marijuana... but here's some more info for ya... with cited sources, again.

    http://www.drugpolicy.org/marijuana/factsmyths/#accidents

    Myth: Marijuana Use is a Major Cause Of Highway Accidents. Like alcohol, marijuana impairs psychomotor function and decreases driving ability. If marijuana use increases, an increase in of traffic fatalities is inevitable.

    Fact: There is no compelling evidence that marijuana contributes substantially to traffic accidents and fatalities. At some doses, marijuana affects perception and psychomotor performances- changes which could impair driving ability. However, in driving studies, marijuana produces little or no car-handling impairment- consistently less than produced by low moderate doses of alcohol and many legal medications. In contrast to alcohol, which tends to increase risky driving practices, marijuana tends to make subjects more cautious. Surveys of fatally injured drivers show that when THC is detected in the blood, alcohol is almost always detected as well. For some individuals, marijuana may play a role in bad driving. The overall rate of highway accidents appears not to be significantly affected by marijuana's widespread use in society.

    *Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse. “Legalization: Panacea or Pandora’s Box”. New York. (1995):36.

    *Swan, Neil. “A Look at Marijuana’s Harmful Effects.” NIDA Notes. 9.2 (1994): 14.

    *Moskowitz, Herbert and Robert Petersen. Marijuana and Driving: A Review. Rockville: American Council for Drug Education, 1982. 7.

    *Mann, Peggy. Marijuana Alert. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1985. 265.
    Again, I don't disagree about the limited dangers of pot. I just disagree with the blanket statement that alcohol is more dangerous because it is linked to more deaths. While the study you cited was solid (and informative), it only dispells the fact that pot is a factor in traffic accidents -something that I didn't believe in the first place. Pot is unregulated, and that in itself makes it more dangerous than most of the regulated drugs, including alcohol. There are also very few studies on the long term effects of smoking pot, and the ones that exist rely on self reporting for usage rates at best.
    Maybe you missed the part that said there is no level of marijuana that can be consumed that would cause an overdose? You can easily die of alcohol poisoning.

    You are only reading what you want to accept.
    You obviously don't know what my opinion on legalizing merijuana is - or you wouldn't be trying to argue with me so much.

    Like I keep saying, I don't think that marijuana is "dangerous" per sea. But trying to justify the legalization of marijuana by comparing it to problems associated with alcohol is a poor comparision. One literally has nothing to do with the other.

    Back to the problem with the unregulated sale of pot - this in itself gives pot the potential to be much more dangerous than alcohol. Now I realize that lacing pot is rare, and when it is done it is usually done at the user level. When pot is laced from teh dealer, it can include anything from cocaine, crack, PCP, or even embalming fluid. There HAVE been deaths linked to the use of laced MJ. There have also been deaths that have occured as a direct result of the sale of marijuana. All of these problems could likely be fixed through regulation.

    Now, to be more precise about the level of THC required to cause an overdose - it is possible to overdose on ANY drug. With THC, it would take nearly 40,000 times the amount needed to become intoxicated, and it is nearly impossible to consume that much through standard means. With alcohol it only takes about 5 to 10 times the amount to overdose, which is more than possible.
    http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=000884
    http://stackarticles.blogspot.com/2008_02_01_archive.html

    Don't act like you are the only one who knows the facts behind marijuana. There are valid reasons for supporting the legalization of it. But trying to use the "it's better than alcohol" argument doesn't work. Not only are you comparing inequatable data sets, but the premise of something being legal just because something else is is a bad basis to start from.
    There has never... ever.. been one case of death from Marijuana overdose... I haven't even seen a case of mariuana overdose, period.

    And saying that the "dealing of marijuana" is the dangerous aspect is funny to me... I live in Brooklyn, NY and haven't encountered one person that has ever had a problem... But a guy in North Dakota is telling me "how it is". Actually, I haven't heard one story like that from anyone in NYC. Not saying it doesn't happen, but don't make it out to be a regular occurrence. The fact that it's illegal is why what makes it dangerous, I guess some people just fail to see that. I bet more people have died as a result of drunken bar fights across the country than drug deals...

    No, I'm sorry, I haven't seen one shred of evidence telling me that it's:
    1.) Dangerous
    2.) Should be illegal
    3.) Why the NFL should care? Alcohol puts their players at much higher risk of injury/death. But, they are only following archaic laws that uninformed people continue to push. That makes sense... not the players' safety though.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  5. #35
    Flidais is offline Rookie
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    Re:NFL concerned by marijuana 'epidemic' in draft

    jmcdon00 wrote:
    Formo wrote:
    Flidais wrote:
    Formo wrote:
    What does the legalization of weed have anything to do with the league's policies on it's use?

    It could be perfectly legal, but if the NFL still has it as a banned substance.. Guess what? You still gonna get slapped.

    But, all that's a moot point.. Weed's still illegal. Unless you have a doctors note and live in a state that has the medical usage of pot legalized, you light up at your own risk.

    And I don't/won't feel a bit sorry for ya, either.
    So to paraphrase, if your doctor feels medical marijuana is your best option for dealing with your health issue...

    Tough shit.
    If your potential employer (in this case, the NFL) still has it as a banned substance.. Simply put.. Yes.
    +1, The employer makes the rules. You either follow them or suffer the consequenses.
    Doctors occassionally recommend steroids to people for asthma, In the nfl that will cause a suspension.
    As pointed out by i_bleed_purple, those steroids won't cause a false positive.

    My main point is, don't you find it morally questionable that the NFL is allowed to deny legal medical treatment ? (14 states and counting)

    And since it is legal medical treatment, don't you think it would be wise, especially with players with known addictions to traditional pain killers, to allow actual medical doctors to prescribe the treatment (the perfectly legal in 14 states treatment) of their choice?

    Aside from the fact that I think it's intolerable to let anyone other than medical professionals decide on medical treatment, the NFL banned substance policy is very whimsical in nature. The NFL feels it does not have to share information with the players they are supposed to be keeping safe. These are the people we want to entrust with the health and safety of our players? Instead of doctors and scientists? Seriously?

  6. #36
    C Mac D's Avatar
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    Re:NFL concerned by marijuana 'epidemic' in draft

    NodakPaul wrote:
    Don't act like you are the only one who knows the facts behind marijuana. There are valid reasons for supporting the legalization of it. But trying to use the "it's better than alcohol" argument doesn't work. Not only are you comparing inequatable data sets, but the premise of something being legal just because something else is is a bad basis to start from.
    Ok... again, you must have failed to read this. How's this work for a reason it's legalization:

    Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within the supervised routine of medical care.:

    Source:
    US Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement Administration, "In the Matter of Marijuana Rescheduling Petition," [Docket #86-22], (September 6, 1988), p. 57.
    www.iowamedicalmarijuana.org/pdfs/young.pdf
    Please read full posts.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  7. #37
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    jmcdon00 is offline Jersey Retired Snake Champion, Moto Trial Fest 2: Mountain Pack Champion, LL City Truck 2 Champion, Arithmetic sequence Champion, Troops Tower Defense Champion
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    Re:NFL concerned by marijuana 'epidemic' in draft

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    jmcdon00 wrote:
    Formo wrote:
    Flidais wrote:
    Formo wrote:
    What does the legalization of weed have anything to do with the league's policies on it's use?

    It could be perfectly legal, but if the NFL still has it as a banned substance.. Guess what? You still gonna get slapped.

    But, all that's a moot point.. Weed's still illegal. Unless you have a doctors note and live in a state that has the medical usage of pot legalized, you light up at your own risk.

    And I don't/won't feel a bit sorry for ya, either.
    So to paraphrase, if your doctor feels medical marijuana is your best option for dealing with your health issue...

    Tough shit.
    If your potential employer (in this case, the NFL) still has it as a banned substance.. Simply put.. Yes.
    +1, The employer makes the rules. You either follow them or suffer the consequenses.
    Doctors occassionally recommend steroids to people for asthma, In the nfl that will cause a suspension.
    Thats quite different. Asthma medicine does not contain anabolic steroids, which are illegal for use. It instead contains a different form called Corticosteroids, which is a hormone naturally produced in your body. All it does is help clear inflammation in the airway. You can take all the puffers you want and won't test positive for steroids in the NFL, as it doesn't build muscle or enhance performance in any way (aside from, of course, allowing you to breathe normally)

    I know, I used to take them
    Bad example. A better example would be a diuretic, such as the star caps taken by the williams wall. There is no law banning them, and a doctor could prescribe it for various ailments, yet the NFL will still suspend the player for taking it.

  8. #38
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Re:NFL concerned by marijuana 'epidemic' in draft

    C Mac D wrote:
    NodakPaul wrote:
    Don't act like you are the only one who knows the facts behind marijuana. There are valid reasons for supporting the legalization of it. But trying to use the "it's better than alcohol" argument doesn't work. Not only are you comparing inequatable data sets, but the premise of something being legal just because something else is is a bad basis to start from.
    Ok... again, you must have failed to read this. How's this work for a reason it's legalization:

    Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within the supervised routine of medical care.:

    Source:
    US Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement Administration, "In the Matter of Marijuana Rescheduling Petition," [Docket #86-22], (September 6, 1988), p. 57.
    www.iowamedicalmarijuana.org/pdfs/young.pdf
    Please read full posts.
    You kill me...

    You are so set on arguing with people that you even argue when they share the same general belief. You should heed your own advice - please read full posts.

    Since you had a hard time figuring this out on your own, I am not against the legalization of marijuana. But there are a lot better arguments out there for its legalization than the "it's less dangerous than alcohol" argument. It's also less dangerous than elective surgery or fast food, why not bring that into it? If you want to make the argument, make it a good one.

    And lol at the attempt to make the North Dakota crack again. We've been over this before. I have actually seen and truly lived all over the world, not just in the narrow view of a 20-something kid who thinks he's somehow unique because he's a fairly intelligent web monkey and likes pot. Gee, I've never seen anyone like THAT before...
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  9. #39
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    Re:NFL concerned by marijuana 'epidemic' in draft

    Why, oh why, must every thread that mentions the word "marijuana" devolve into the same discussion?

    The POINT of this thread (and the article, if anyone bothered to read it) is that these kids are increasingly willing to get high in spite of the potential risk to their careers.

    And that the teams are, increasingly, needing to judge the risk factor of this particular past behavior in deciding where a player fits on their draft board.

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

  10. #40
    C Mac D's Avatar
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    Re:NFL concerned by marijuana 'epidemic' in draft

    NodakPaul wrote:
    C Mac D wrote:
    NodakPaul wrote:
    Don't act like you are the only one who knows the facts behind marijuana. There are valid reasons for supporting the legalization of it. But trying to use the "it's better than alcohol" argument doesn't work. Not only are you comparing inequatable data sets, but the premise of something being legal just because something else is is a bad basis to start from.
    Ok... again, you must have failed to read this. How's this work for a reason it's legalization:

    Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within the supervised routine of medical care.:

    Source:
    US Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement Administration, "In the Matter of Marijuana Rescheduling Petition," [Docket #86-22], (September 6, 1988), p. 57.
    www.iowamedicalmarijuana.org/pdfs/young.pdf
    Please read full posts.
    You kill me...

    You are so set on arguing with people that you even argue when they share the same general belief. You should heed your own advice - please read full posts.

    Since you had a hard time figuring this out on your own, I am not against the legalization of marijuana. But there are a lot better arguments out there for its legalization than the "it's less dangerous than alcohol" argument. It's also less dangerous than elective surgery or fast food, why not bring that into it? If you want to make the argument, make it a good one.

    And lol at the attempt to make the North Dakota crack again. We've been over this before. I have actually seen and truly lived all over the world, not just in the narrow view of a 20-something kid who thinks he's somehow unique because he's a fairly intelligent web monkey and likes pot. Gee, I've never seen anyone like THAT before...
    lol... classic Nodak. Ignore the facts and resort to name-calling. A "Web monkey that likes pot..." A web monkey that's better informed than you, at least. You'd think we were arguing QB's again (btw... how's Rosenfels doing?).

    Again, you say that I only compared Alcohol vs Marijuana, which I have shown not to be true and that doctors as well as the American Government say it's... and I quote... "Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man.".. and yet, only you would ignore that and continue to go after one of the analogies I originally pointed out.

    Anyways, I just find it funny when someone tells me "how it is" when they are so far removed from the situation that they couldn't even tell you the color of the street, let alone what happens on it. I bet a lot of people could use a puff after stacking sandbags all over your city.

    But again, I have yet to see a viable argument out of you... but keep it up with the name calling. I can see why you were a cop.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

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