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  1. #21
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Perhaps we need to look at this a little more closely:

    Walsh’s tapes show that the Patriots recorded the signals of offensive and defensive coaches in regular-season games against the Miami Dolphins, the Buffalo Bills, the Cleveland Browns and the San Diego Chargers and against the Pittsburgh Steelers in the 2002 American Football Conference championship game. In that game, the tape has been edited to show Steelers coaches signaling plays, followed by two different camera angles of the actual plays that were called.
    Again, this is tape that is edited and used for study later - AFTER the game. There is no way this can be used for an immediate advantage, and therefore did NOT help them during the 2002 AFC Championship game, and could NOT help them during a superbowl.
    NOT TRUE...the tapes can be broken down at regular intervals DURING the game if desired (obviously not by Belichick or the coordinators, but there is no reason why a lowly assistant couldn't be assigned to do it just before halftime, or even via some sort of relay of tapes from the sideline to the locker room).
    You gotta think outside of the box.
    Again, there was no evidence to support any relay of tapes, nor was the camera capable of broadcasting signals.
    Thinking outside the box is one thing, going out on a limb to try is another.
    Analyzing signals and identifying the corresponding play call is not something that can be done quickly.

    However, read my above post in relation the the Rams super bowl.
    Now that I realize that they played the Rams during the regular season the same year, I think that the tapes definately could have had an impact on at least that championship.
    You telling me that it isn't conceivable that tapes could have been relayed?
    How hard could that have been to accomplish?
    I will concede the broadcasting signals part, which is why I didn't bring it up in the first place (it would have been easy enough to analyze the camera in the Jets game to see whether or not it had that capability...and since it never came up, I assume that the broadcast capability was not available).
    Swapping tapes and relaying them to the locker room is not going out on a limb...it would have been too easy to accomplish to not consider it happening that way.
    I think it would have been less easy to accomplish without making it blatantly obvious than you might think.
    And the time that it would take to break down and analyze the tape would render it pretty useless.
    The person breaking down the tape wold either have to a) be on the field watching the opposing defense in order to interpret their signals (effectively taking time away from analyzing further tape) or b) relay all of his translations to someone on the field who would be able to learn all of the signals immediately and translate them in real time.
    It takes defensive players weeks to learn all of the signals - do you really think the Pats could do it on the fly?

    The much more likely use of these tapes was for break down and study in preparation for upcoming games.
    That would give the people doing the analysis time to identify specific defensive signals and their signals, and devise plays that can exploit them.
    Probably end up with a dozen or so play calls to watch for, and when that play is caught, radio in the info to the QB.

    In game benefit is simply too far fetched.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  2. #22
    cajunvike's Avatar
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Perhaps we need to look at this a little more closely:

    Walsh’s tapes show that the Patriots recorded the signals of offensive and defensive coaches in regular-season games against the Miami Dolphins, the Buffalo Bills, the Cleveland Browns and the San Diego Chargers and against the Pittsburgh Steelers in the 2002 American Football Conference championship game. In that game, the tape has been edited to show Steelers coaches signaling plays, followed by two different camera angles of the actual plays that were called.
    Again, this is tape that is edited and used for study later - AFTER the game. There is no way this can be used for an immediate advantage, and therefore did NOT help them during the 2002 AFC Championship game, and could NOT help them during a superbowl.
    NOT TRUE...the tapes can be broken down at regular intervals DURING the game if desired (obviously not by Belichick or the coordinators, but there is no reason why a lowly assistant couldn't be assigned to do it just before halftime, or even via some sort of relay of tapes from the sideline to the locker room).
    You gotta think outside of the box.
    Again, there was no evidence to support any relay of tapes, nor was the camera capable of broadcasting signals.
    Thinking outside the box is one thing, going out on a limb to try is another.
    Analyzing signals and identifying the corresponding play call is not something that can be done quickly.

    However, read my above post in relation the the Rams super bowl.
    Now that I realize that they played the Rams during the regular season the same year, I think that the tapes definately could have had an impact on at least that championship.
    You telling me that it isn't conceivable that tapes could have been relayed?
    How hard could that have been to accomplish?
    I will concede the broadcasting signals part, which is why I didn't bring it up in the first place (it would have been easy enough to analyze the camera in the Jets game to see whether or not it had that capability...and since it never came up, I assume that the broadcast capability was not available).
    Swapping tapes and relaying them to the locker room is not going out on a limb...it would have been too easy to accomplish to not consider it happening that way.
    I think it would have been less easy to accomplish without making it blatantly obvious than you might think.
    And the time that it would take to break down and analyze the tape would render it pretty useless.
    The person breaking down the tape wold either have to a) be on the field watching the opposing defense in order to interpret their signals (effectively taking time away from analyzing further tape) or b) relay all of his translations to someone on the field who would be able to learn all of the signals immediately and translate them in real time.
    It takes defensive players weeks to learn all of the signals - do you really think the Pats could do it on the fly?

    The much more likely use of these tapes was for break down and study in preparation for upcoming games.
    That would give the people doing the analysis time to identify specific defensive signals and their signals, and devise plays that can exploit them.
    Probably end up with a dozen or so play calls to watch for, and when that play is caught, radio in the info to the QB.

    In game benefit is simply too far fetched.
    BUT Belichick is a "genius"...if anyone could do it, it would HAVE to be him.
    Of course, the "genius" coach was the ONLY one of 32 head coaches in the NFL who "misinterpreted" (or was it "misremembered"?) the memo that came out the same week that he got caught.

    Fact is, the tapes show a premeditated, pervasive and ongoing attempt to gain an advantage by the use of means that were against the NFL rules.
    To pretend that the Putzies weren't cheating is what is going out on a limb.
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  3. #23
    mountainviking's Avatar
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    Maybe I'm walking further out onto the limb here, but consider this...

    All teams watch film of teams they are about to play.
    They then come up with ideas for plays that will work especially well vs. certain plays the opponent likes to use.
    I'm thinking that the Patsies already had certain plays they were looking for, and once they happen, they know the signal.
    If its a play that team likes/uses a lot, they are ready for it next time.

    In the stadium chaos of a game situation with most folks attention on the game, or where their next beer or snack is, I think it would be pretty easy to have a gopher running tapes around unnoticed.

    Granted, all of this is speculation.
    I doubt we'll ever know the whole truth of the matter, but the fact remains, they cheated.
    How much and for how long is the only question.
    My answer is too often and too long.
    Its got to be easier for a 40 somthing LB to be in place if he has an idea beforehand where that place is.
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

    "Balance it on end and thats the third side of the coin!!" -wookiefoot

  4. #24
    cajunvike's Avatar
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "seaniemck7" wrote:
    Breaking down tape is not illegal.
    Taping from the sidelines is. Even if they are breaking down tape during the game who gives a floop. Moreover, if they are just taping Defensive signals, are you expecting me to believe that the Pats are waiting for the defensive coach to call a defense, then signal in a play based on attacking the exact defense that they just called on the same down?

    Peyton Manning calls out audibles all game long.
    They switch up their signal calls ALL the time to prevent teams from "getting" the calls down.
    You would expect teams using hand signals would take the same precautions and not use the same singals all year long.
    It only takes one or two plays to change the tide of a game...so even if the Pats only were able to gain an advantage on a few plays a game, that would usually be enough to turn the tide.
    ALL THREE Super Bowls were won by 3 points...and two of them on the last drive of the game.
    The 2002 AFC Championship (one of the tapes turned over) was won by 7 points.
    The theory is much more plausible than you think.

    Besides, just because someone doesn't succeed in the cheating, it doesn't excuse the attempts to cheat.
    An eight-year record of systematic cheating is inexcusable to say the least....and bad for the game to say the worst.

    Just imagine how you would feel if the Packers had been doing the same thing to the Vikings for the past eight years.
    Remember all of the close games that the Vikings have lost to the Pack over the last several years...if those games had been taped illegally by the Pack trying to gain an advantage somehow, I can just imagine the uproar that would be made on this and other Viking fan boards.
    And YOU would be right there with the crowd pissing and moaning.
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  5. #25
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    [quote author=NodakPaul link=topic=44796.msg776440#msg776440 date=1210262939]
    Perhaps we need to look at this a little more closely:

    Walsh’s tapes show that the Patriots recorded the signals of offensive and defensive coaches in regular-season games against the Miami Dolphins, the Buffalo Bills, the Cleveland Browns and the San Diego Chargers and against the Pittsburgh Steelers in the 2002 American Football Conference championship game. In that game, the tape has been edited to show Steelers coaches signaling plays, followed by two different camera angles of the actual plays that were called.
    Again, this is tape that is edited and used for study later - AFTER the game. There is no way this can be used for an immediate advantage, and therefore did NOT help them during the 2002 AFC Championship game, and could NOT help them during a superbowl.
    NOT TRUE...the tapes can be broken down at regular intervals DURING the game if desired (obviously not by Belichick or the coordinators, but there is no reason why a lowly assistant couldn't be assigned to do it just before halftime, or even via some sort of relay of tapes from the sideline to the locker room).
    You gotta think outside of the box.
    Again, there was no evidence to support any relay of tapes, nor was the camera capable of broadcasting signals.
    Thinking outside the box is one thing, going out on a limb to try is another.
    Analyzing signals and identifying the corresponding play call is not something that can be done quickly.

    However, read my above post in relation the the Rams super bowl.
    Now that I realize that they played the Rams during the regular season the same year, I think that the tapes definately could have had an impact on at least that championship.
    You telling me that it isn't conceivable that tapes could have been relayed?
    How hard could that have been to accomplish?
    I will concede the broadcasting signals part, which is why I didn't bring it up in the first place (it would have been easy enough to analyze the camera in the Jets game to see whether or not it had that capability...and since it never came up, I assume that the broadcast capability was not available).
    Swapping tapes and relaying them to the locker room is not going out on a limb...it would have been too easy to accomplish to not consider it happening that way.
    I think it would have been less easy to accomplish without making it blatantly obvious than you might think.
    And the time that it would take to break down and analyze the tape would render it pretty useless.
    The person breaking down the tape wold either have to a) be on the field watching the opposing defense in order to interpret their signals (effectively taking time away from analyzing further tape) or b) relay all of his translations to someone on the field who would be able to learn all of the signals immediately and translate them in real time.
    It takes defensive players weeks to learn all of the signals - do you really think the Pats could do it on the fly?

    The much more likely use of these tapes was for break down and study in preparation for upcoming games.
    That would give the people doing the analysis time to identify specific defensive signals and their signals, and devise plays that can exploit them.
    Probably end up with a dozen or so play calls to watch for, and when that play is caught, radio in the info to the QB.

    In game benefit is simply too far fetched.
    BUT Belichick is a "genius"...if anyone could do it, it would HAVE to be him.
    Of course, the "genius" coach was the ONLY one of 32 head coaches in the NFL who "misinterpreted" (or was it "misremembered"?) the memo that came out the same week that he got caught.

    Fact is, the tapes show a premeditated, pervasive and ongoing attempt to gain an advantage by the use of means that were against the NFL rules.
    To pretend that the Putzies weren't cheating is what is going out on a limb.
    [/quote]

    Who said that they didn't cheat?
    They absolutely did, and deserved to be punished.
    My point is that the realized benefit of them cheating is not nearly as large as some people make it out to be.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  6. #26
    cajunvike's Avatar
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "mountainviking" wrote:
    Maybe I'm walking further out onto the limb here, but consider this...

    All teams watch film of teams they are about to play.
    They then come up with ideas for plays that will work especially well vs. certain plays the opponent likes to use.
    I'm thinking that the Patsies already had certain plays they were looking for, and once they happen, they know the signal.
    If its a play that team likes/uses a lot, they are ready for it next time.

    In the stadium chaos of a game situation with most folks attention on the game, or where their next beer or snack is, I think it would be pretty easy to have a gopher running tapes around unnoticed.

    Granted, all of this is speculation.
    I doubt we'll ever know the whole truth of the matter, but the fact remains, they cheated.
    How much and for how long is the only question.
    My answer is too often and too long.

    Its got to be easier for a 40 somthing LB to be in place if he has an idea beforehand where that place is.
    Systematically, pervasively and in a premeditated fashion (unlike holding, for instance, which is most likely reactional).
    To let that slide is pretty pathetic...and just shows how far the NFL will go to keep the cash rolling in.
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  7. #27
    cajunvike's Avatar
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    [quote author=cajunvike link=topic=44796.msg776445#msg776445 date=1210264364]
    [quote author=NodakPaul link=topic=44796.msg776440#msg776440 date=1210262939]
    Perhaps we need to look at this a little more closely:

    Walsh’s tapes show that the Patriots recorded the signals of offensive and defensive coaches in regular-season games against the Miami Dolphins, the Buffalo Bills, the Cleveland Browns and the San Diego Chargers and against the Pittsburgh Steelers in the 2002 American Football Conference championship game. In that game, the tape has been edited to show Steelers coaches signaling plays, followed by two different camera angles of the actual plays that were called.
    Again, this is tape that is edited and used for study later - AFTER the game. There is no way this can be used for an immediate advantage, and therefore did NOT help them during the 2002 AFC Championship game, and could NOT help them during a superbowl.
    NOT TRUE...the tapes can be broken down at regular intervals DURING the game if desired (obviously not by Belichick or the coordinators, but there is no reason why a lowly assistant couldn't be assigned to do it just before halftime, or even via some sort of relay of tapes from the sideline to the locker room).
    You gotta think outside of the box.
    Again, there was no evidence to support any relay of tapes, nor was the camera capable of broadcasting signals.
    Thinking outside the box is one thing, going out on a limb to try is another.
    Analyzing signals and identifying the corresponding play call is not something that can be done quickly.

    However, read my above post in relation the the Rams super bowl.
    Now that I realize that they played the Rams during the regular season the same year, I think that the tapes definately could have had an impact on at least that championship.
    You telling me that it isn't conceivable that tapes could have been relayed?
    How hard could that have been to accomplish?
    I will concede the broadcasting signals part, which is why I didn't bring it up in the first place (it would have been easy enough to analyze the camera in the Jets game to see whether or not it had that capability...and since it never came up, I assume that the broadcast capability was not available).
    Swapping tapes and relaying them to the locker room is not going out on a limb...it would have been too easy to accomplish to not consider it happening that way.
    I think it would have been less easy to accomplish without making it blatantly obvious than you might think.
    And the time that it would take to break down and analyze the tape would render it pretty useless.
    The person breaking down the tape wold either have to a) be on the field watching the opposing defense in order to interpret their signals (effectively taking time away from analyzing further tape) or b) relay all of his translations to someone on the field who would be able to learn all of the signals immediately and translate them in real time.
    It takes defensive players weeks to learn all of the signals - do you really think the Pats could do it on the fly?

    The much more likely use of these tapes was for break down and study in preparation for upcoming games.
    That would give the people doing the analysis time to identify specific defensive signals and their signals, and devise plays that can exploit them.
    Probably end up with a dozen or so play calls to watch for, and when that play is caught, radio in the info to the QB.

    In game benefit is simply too far fetched.
    BUT Belichick is a "genius"...if anyone could do it, it would HAVE to be him.
    Of course, the "genius" coach was the ONLY one of 32 head coaches in the NFL who "misinterpreted" (or was it "misremembered"?) the memo that came out the same week that he got caught.

    Fact is, the tapes show a premeditated, pervasive and ongoing attempt to gain an advantage by the use of means that were against the NFL rules.
    To pretend that the Putzies weren't cheating is what is going out on a limb.
    [/quote]

    Who said that they didn't cheat?
    They absolutely did, and deserved to be punished.
    My point is that the realized benefit of them cheating is not nearly as large as some people make it out to be.
    [/quote]

    EIGHT years of premeditated, pervasive and systematic cheating...the penalty did NOT fit the crime.
    The T-Wolves got caught paying Joe Smith under the table and paid a MUCH WORSE price than what the Pats did for cheating EIGHT straight years...that despite the fact that the T-Wolves only gained Smith's services for a ONE year period as a result of the finagling.

    http://www.sportslawnews.com/archive/Articles%202000/TimberwolvesSanction.htm

    Clearly, the NFL is protecting themselves by trying to sweep this under the rug...otherwise all hell would break loose...which would be fine with me.
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  8. #28
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "seaniemck7" wrote:
    Surprise, surprise.
    Matt Walsh is a headline wanting, attention seeking nobody.
    While he still has a meeting with Goodell, I cannot imagine anything substantial coming out of this.

    p.s. Prepare to get your jiggly butt sued, Boston Globe for printing that "taped walk thru" story the day before the superbowl.
    The GLOBE won't get sued...since it wasn't them that broke the story.
    :P
    BTW, the Boston HERALD won't be getting sued for libel anytime soon...because one defense to libel is TRUTH.
    If Walsh wasn't the "source" as the Herald claimed, then that could mean that there is ANOTHER source that the Herald isn't revealing....and it is highly likely that the Pats won't want to take the chance that the Herald would bring an unknown (to everyone but the Herald, that is) source to court and open up a new can of worms.
    More likely, the Pats will just try to hope that this will just go away.
    We already know that the NFL is pushing for this to happen as well, since Goodell and Kraft have been in bed together for a very long time.
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  9. #29
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "seaniemck7" wrote:
    Surprise, surprise.
    Matt Walsh is a headline wanting, attention seeking nobody.
    While he still has a meeting with Goodell, I cannot imagine anything substantial coming out of this.

    p.s. Prepare to get your jiggly butt sued, Boston Globe for printing that "taped walk thru" story the day before the superbowl.
    The GLOBE won't get sued...since it wasn't them that broke the story.
    :P
    BTW, the Boston HERALD won't be getting sued for libel anytime soon...because one defense to libel is TRUTH.
    If Walsh wasn't the "source" as the Herald claimed, then that could mean that there is ANOTHER source that the Herald isn't revealing....and it is highly likely that the Pats won't want to take the chance that the Herald would bring an unknown (to everyone but the Herald, that is) source to court and open up a new can of worms.
    More likely, the Pats will just try to hope that this will just go away.
    We already know that the NFL is pushing for this to happen as well, since Goodell and Kraft have been in bed together for a very long time.
    So you are saying that there was a second source?
    On a grassy knoll?
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  10. #30
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "seaniemck7" wrote:
    Surprise, surprise.
    Matt Walsh is a headline wanting, attention seeking nobody.
    While he still has a meeting with Goodell, I cannot imagine anything substantial coming out of this.

    p.s. Prepare to get your jiggly butt sued, Boston Globe for printing that "taped walk thru" story the day before the superbowl.
    The GLOBE won't get sued...since it wasn't them that broke the story.
    :P
    BTW, the Boston HERALD won't be getting sued for libel anytime soon...because one defense to libel is TRUTH.
    If Walsh wasn't the "source" as the Herald claimed, then that could mean that there is ANOTHER source that the Herald isn't revealing....and it is highly likely that the Pats won't want to take the chance that the Herald would bring an unknown (to everyone but the Herald, that is) source to court and open up a new can of worms.
    More likely, the Pats will just try to hope that this will just go away.
    We already know that the NFL is pushing for this to happen as well, since Goodell and Kraft have been in bed together for a very long time.
    So you are saying that there was a second source?
    On a grassy knoll?
    Nope...just speculating as to whether the Pats REALLY want to take a chance that there IS.
    Is the potential libel payoff REALLY worth the effort?
    Libel suits against newspapers don't succeed as often as one might think...besides, Walsh has already protected himself and he doesn't have deep pockets to begin with.
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

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