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  1. #11
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Perhaps we need to look at this a little more closely:

    Walsh’s tapes show that the Patriots recorded the signals of offensive and defensive coaches in regular-season games against the Miami Dolphins, the Buffalo Bills, the Cleveland Browns and the San Diego Chargers and against the Pittsburgh Steelers in the 2002 American Football Conference championship game. In that game, the tape has been edited to show Steelers coaches signaling plays, followed by two different camera angles of the actual plays that were called.
    Again, this is tape that is edited and used for study later - AFTER the game. There is no way this can be used for an immediate advantage, and therefore did NOT help them during the 2002 AFC Championship game, and could NOT help them during a superbowl.
    NOT TRUE...the tapes can be broken down at regular intervals DURING the game if desired (obviously not by Belichick or the coordinators, but there is no reason why a lowly assistant couldn't be assigned to do it just before halftime, or even via some sort of relay of tapes from the sideline to the locker room).
    You gotta think outside of the box.
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  2. #12
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "mountainviking" wrote:
    My [s]understanding[/s] guesstimate, is that they had staff studying the signals during the game and would use them to their advantage in the later stages of the games.
    Obviously, they play the Jets, Bills, and Dollfins twice a year and could use this info later on in the season vs. their division rivals.

    My question would be, why bother with the taping (paying a guy, camera and film cost etc) if you're not going to get anything out of it?
    Seems they had a reason.

    And, NE has played PIT in other games since then, and quite effectively.
    Of course they got something out of it.
    It was probably very useful in later meetings. However, during the game would be very unlikely.
    The camera confiscated at the Jets game did not have any way of broadcasting the images.
    It was a tape, and that's it.
    Even if he swapped out tapes at halftime and gave them to people to begin analysis then... it still would only have marginal benefit because that type of analysis takes time.

    It is highly doubtful that any in game benefit was realized.

    The real benefit was from when they played those teams again, especially if they played them again in the same year.
    Division rivals had a reason to be upset - they were most likely the most affected by it.
    AFC teams who met the Pats a second time in the playoffs have a reason to be upset.

    However, as I look at it again, the Rams do actually have a legitimate complaint.
    The Patriots played the Rams during the regular season in the 2001 season.
    The same season that they beat them in the super bowl.
    >
    This could have had a major impact.

    They also played Carolina during the 2001 season, and beat the Panthers in the super bowl in the 2003 season.
    And they played Philadelphia during the 2003 season, before beating them in the 2004 super bowl.
    I don't think these two have as much impact as the Rams super bowl would, but there would still be some benefit to this.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  3. #13
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "mountainviking" wrote:
    I think it is a big deal.
    Cheating to beat the lowly Jets is one thing, but the taping of other in division rivals, and the taping of that PIT playoff game shows it was not an isolated incident, but a regular practice that helped to forge their, "dynasty."
    To me, their three superbowl wins are now all questionable, and if I were PIT I would be really, really pissed!
    OK, how are their three Superbowl wins in question?
    The point of taping was to use the tapes for later study to try and determine the defensive signals.
    Unless they had played the opposing team recently (which I don't believe happened in any of their three super bowls), it really didn't apply.

    Plus, keep in mind that videotaping the defensive signals IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES.
    Videotaping them from the field level is.

    This shows me that the Patriots were indeed honest with the NFL when they turned over any tapes they had and they were honest when they disclosed to Goodell how long they had been doing it.

    None of the inflammatory things that Walsh was supposed to have had, like a walk through of the practice, actually existed.
    Nothing has changed.
    Yet Goodell wasn't initially honest as to the extent of the taping with the public...makes one wonder what is still being hidden from public view.
    Think Enron and WorldCom...the NFL is no different as a corporate entity.
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  4. #14
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Perhaps we need to look at this a little more closely:

    Walsh’s tapes show that the Patriots recorded the signals of offensive and defensive coaches in regular-season games against the Miami Dolphins, the Buffalo Bills, the Cleveland Browns and the San Diego Chargers and against the Pittsburgh Steelers in the 2002 American Football Conference championship game. In that game, the tape has been edited to show Steelers coaches signaling plays, followed by two different camera angles of the actual plays that were called.
    Again, this is tape that is edited and used for study later - AFTER the game. There is no way this can be used for an immediate advantage, and therefore did NOT help them during the 2002 AFC Championship game, and could NOT help them during a superbowl.
    NOT TRUE...the tapes can be broken down at regular intervals DURING the game if desired (obviously not by Belichick or the coordinators, but there is no reason why a lowly assistant couldn't be assigned to do it just before halftime, or even via some sort of relay of tapes from the sideline to the locker room).
    You gotta think outside of the box.
    Again, there was no evidence to support any relay of tapes, nor was the camera capable of broadcasting signals.
    Thinking outside the box is one thing, going out on a limb to try is another.
    Analyzing signals and identifying the corresponding play call is not something that can be done quickly.

    However, read my above post in relation the the Rams super bowl.
    Now that I realize that they played the Rams during the regular season the same year, I think that the tapes definately could have had an impact on at least that championship.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  5. #15
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "mountainviking" wrote:
    My [s]understanding[/s] guesstimate, is that they had staff studying the signals during the game and would use them to their advantage in the later stages of the games.
    Obviously, they play the Jets, Bills, and Dollfins twice a year and could use this info later on in the season vs. their division rivals.

    My question would be, why bother with the taping (paying a guy, camera and film cost etc) if you're not going to get anything out of it?
    Seems they had a reason.

    And, NE has played PIT in other games since then, and quite effectively.
    Of course they got something out of it.
    It was probably very useful in later meetings. However, during the game would be very unlikely.
    The camera confiscated at the Jets game did not have any way of broadcasting the images.
    It was a tape, and that's it.
    Even if he swapped out tapes at halftime and gave them to people to begin analysis then... it still would only have marginal benefit because that type of analysis takes time.

    It is highly doubtful that any in game benefit was realized.

    The real benefit was from when they played those teams again, especially if they played them again in the same year.
    Division rivals had a reason to be upset - they were most likely the most affected by it.
    AFC teams who met the Pats a second time in the playoffs have a reason to be upset.

    However, as I look at it again, the Rams do actually have a legitimate complaint.
    The Patriots played the Rams during the regular season in the 2001 season.
    The same season that they beat them in the super bowl.
    >
    This could have had a major impact.

    They also played Carolina during the 2001 season, and beat the Panthers in the super bowl in the 2003 season.
    And they played Philadelphia during the 2003 season, before beating them in the 2004 super bowl.
    I don't think these two have as much impact as the Rams super bowl would, but there would still be some benefit to this.
    The analysis could have been done on an ongoing basis...I mean, how hard would it be to relay tapes every 5 or 10 minutes to the locker room to be analyzed?
    Funny how the "genius" had no answer for the Giants in the second half of the last Super Bowl.
    Maybe those tapes were more missed than anyone thought?
    Fact is, where there is smoke, there is fire.
    That principle applies to Belichick and the Pats as well as it applies to players like McKinnie, Pacman Jones and Chris Henry.
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  6. #16
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Perhaps we need to look at this a little more closely:

    Walsh’s tapes show that the Patriots recorded the signals of offensive and defensive coaches in regular-season games against the Miami Dolphins, the Buffalo Bills, the Cleveland Browns and the San Diego Chargers and against the Pittsburgh Steelers in the 2002 American Football Conference championship game. In that game, the tape has been edited to show Steelers coaches signaling plays, followed by two different camera angles of the actual plays that were called.
    Again, this is tape that is edited and used for study later - AFTER the game. There is no way this can be used for an immediate advantage, and therefore did NOT help them during the 2002 AFC Championship game, and could NOT help them during a superbowl.
    NOT TRUE...the tapes can be broken down at regular intervals DURING the game if desired (obviously not by Belichick or the coordinators, but there is no reason why a lowly assistant couldn't be assigned to do it just before halftime, or even via some sort of relay of tapes from the sideline to the locker room).
    You gotta think outside of the box.
    Again, there was no evidence to support any relay of tapes, nor was the camera capable of broadcasting signals.
    Thinking outside the box is one thing, going out on a limb to try is another.
    Analyzing signals and identifying the corresponding play call is not something that can be done quickly.

    However, read my above post in relation the the Rams super bowl.
    Now that I realize that they played the Rams during the regular season the same year, I think that the tapes definately could have had an impact on at least that championship.
    You telling me that it isn't conceivable that tapes could have been relayed?
    How hard could that have been to accomplish?
    I will concede the broadcasting signals part, which is why I didn't bring it up in the first place (it would have been easy enough to analyze the camera in the Jets game to see whether or not it had that capability...and since it never came up, I assume that the broadcast capability was not available).
    Swapping tapes and relaying them to the locker room is not going out on a limb...it would have been too easy to accomplish to not consider it happening that way.
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  7. #17
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Perhaps we need to look at this a little more closely:

    Walsh’s tapes show that the Patriots recorded the signals of offensive and defensive coaches in regular-season games against the Miami Dolphins, the Buffalo Bills, the Cleveland Browns and the San Diego Chargers and against the Pittsburgh Steelers in the 2002 American Football Conference championship game. In that game, the tape has been edited to show Steelers coaches signaling plays, followed by two different camera angles of the actual plays that were called.
    Again, this is tape that is edited and used for study later - AFTER the game. There is no way this can be used for an immediate advantage, and therefore did NOT help them during the 2002 AFC Championship game, and could NOT help them during a superbowl.
    NOT TRUE...the tapes can be broken down at regular intervals DURING the game if desired (obviously not by Belichick or the coordinators, but there is no reason why a lowly assistant couldn't be assigned to do it just before halftime, or even via some sort of relay of tapes from the sideline to the locker room).
    You gotta think outside of the box.
    Again, there was no evidence to support any relay of tapes, nor was the camera capable of broadcasting signals.
    Thinking outside the box is one thing, going out on a limb to try is another.
    Analyzing signals and identifying the corresponding play call is not something that can be done quickly.

    However, read my above post in relation the the Rams super bowl.
    Now that I realize that they played the Rams during the regular season the same year, I think that the tapes definately could have had an impact on at least that championship.
    BTW, THIS is the guy who would be the one to break down the tapes in-game:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=adams
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  8. #18
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    Breaking down tape is not illegal.
    Taping from the sidelines is. Even if they are breaking down tape during the game who gives a fuck. Moreover, if they are just taping Defensive signals, are you expecting me to believe that the Pats are waiting for the defensive coach to call a defense, then signal in a play based on attacking the exact defense that they just called on the same down?

    Peyton Manning calls out audibles all game long.
    They switch up their signal calls ALL the time to prevent teams from "getting" the calls down.
    You would expect teams using hand signals would take the same precautions and not use the same singals all year long.

  9. #19
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    "seaniemck7" wrote:
    Breaking down tape is not illegal.
    Taping from the sidelines is. Even if they are breaking down tape during the game who gives a floop. Moreover, if they are just taping Defensive signals, are you expecting me to believe that the Pats are waiting for the defensive coach to call a defense, then signal in a play based on attacking the exact defense that they just called on the same down?

    Peyton Manning calls out audibles all game long.
    They switch up their signal calls ALL the time to prevent teams from "getting" the calls down.
    You would expect teams using hand signals would take the same precautions and not use the same singals all year long.
    Agreed.
    The benefit is not nearly as strong as a lot of people think, and marginal at the very best during the actual game.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  10. #20
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    Re: Matt Walsh tapes released - and there is pretty much nothing in them...

    This issue has been a non-issue in my book once the punishment was handed down last season.
    I feel the same way now and if the Vikings don't get to the SB, I am pulling for Moss and the Pats to get him is damn ring already.

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