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  1. #71
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Jets coach trips Dolphins player during game

    Quote Originally Posted by "Infidel" #1085329
    Excellent points and I totally agree about the hypocrisy.

    Again, the only infraction aside from the knee was that the players that lined up with the coach were not active players.

    The coach had the right to be there by the rules, but the INactive players did not.....and this had been done for most of the season without anybody calling them on it.

    Ryan is denying any knowledge of the scheme, but the papers there are saying that Ryan must have known about this ongoing strategy and are saying that Alosi was just the fall guy.

    If that's the case, the Jets will have to quietly give him compensation and a better contract next year to buy his silence.

    So......Maybe Alosi will eventually come out of it ok.
    Again, the only infraction aside from the knee was that the players that lined up with the coach were not active players.
    Isn't that enough? 2 infractions on one play. An idiot trying to injure a player. Again, let the refs call the penalty. That is their job.

    The coach had the right to be there by the rules, but the INactive players did not.....and this had been done for most of the season without anybody calling them on it.
    Regardless it is the refs job. If the HC sees this happening it is his job to point it out to the refs so they can handle it appropriately.

    Ryan is denying any knowledge of the scheme, but the papers there are saying that Ryan must have known about this ongoing strategy and are saying that Alosi was just the fall guy.
    That being said, why would they punish him anymore than they had to if he could be a whistle blower?

  2. #72
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    Re: Jets coach trips Dolphins player during game

    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1084810
    Quote Originally Posted by "Infidel" #1084805
    You're not even worth responding to.
    LOL. Or is it you just can't respond because you continue to contradict yourself?
    LOL, patience my friend. All of us have our little idiosyncrasies that drive others crazy......Eventually we will mold the Infidel into a valuable PPO poster.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #73
    Minniman's Avatar
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    Re: Jets coach trips Dolphins player during game

    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1085331
    Quote Originally Posted by "Minniman" #1085307
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1084744
    Quote Originally Posted by "Minniman" #1084737
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1084724
    Quote Originally Posted by "Infidel" #1084708
    Oh, players fall down all the time.

    The coach was used as a scapegoat.

    Penalty FAR exceeded the crime.

    If he had a history of tripping players, I'd agree with it.

    Lacking that, it's inappropriate.

    But somebody had to be hung, so he got hung.
    Players do fall down all the time. However, he fell down because an idiot that had no business sticking his knee out hit him. I'm not sure what you don't get about that. What he did was illegal and put the kid's season in jeopardy. One time or ten times, it only takes one time. If that's your argument of excusing this guy then you really don't have much.

    The guy had no business sticking his knee out. It was more than inappropriate. Much more. He was not a scapegoat. He was an idiot for sticking his knee out to intentionally hit a player trying to make a play. In turn, causing possible injury. HE HAD NO BUSINESS DOING WHAT HE DID.
    The player was a yard outside of the field of play, and using that to avoid blocks. It is a well known tactic used on special teams in the NFL. The Dolphins do it, and the Jets are aware of it, because they likely do it to.

    It is not like the coach ran on the field and tripped the player; he was well out of the field of play. His knee was clearly bent before the player got to him, so it wasn't stuck out like a knee to the groin as some of the press would have it reported.

    Was it stupid and obvious? Likely. Did it need to be addressed? Certainly. Did the punishment fit the crime? Not in my opinion.
    The coaches knee was bending as the player approached him. The punishment was by the Jets themselves. Do you honestly believe the Jets (not the NFL) would have punished a coach more than what they should be? Seriously?
    Seriously? Certainly, I would. I have seen this happen many times in real world business, and the NFL is real world business.

    Bottom line is this. He could have been punished more or he could have been punished less. He did something stupid and idiotic in which he had no business doing. He downright admitted to it so I'm not sure why anyone would try to condone or excuse this behavior. He put that player's season and even career in jeopardy. I know it doesn't look like much but how about you run down the sideline at full speed and have someone knee you. See how good that feels. Then see if it doesn't cause an injury.
    Career in jeopardy? Hardly. I have taken blindside, sideline, and low hits from players on the field, so I do know what it feels like.

    Whether or not it is legal for coaches to stand there IMO it is stupid to begin with. They have no busiess being that close to the field of play. And you know what? If I were a gunner and coaches were doing this crap, I would take every opportunity I had to plow into them. Maybe then they would back off to where they should be.
    Again, the coaches were well out of bounds. No player is supposed to be there by the rules of the game.

    Because the refs do not crack down on players abusing the our-of-bounds rules, gunners run out of bounds to avoid blocks with the only restriction that they must re-establish themselves when they can, which is not supposed to be ten to twenty yards, and that they are not the first player to touch the ball.

    The Dolphins were abusing the rule, and the Jets were well within the rules to have coaches and suited players at the outer edge of the sideline to keep the abuse to a minimum. Sticking out a knee was stupid, but he just as well as could have been holding out a clipboard.

    I do believe there should have been punishment in game with an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty given to the bench, and a fine of not more than $10,000 and a single game suspension, but the ex-player talking heads made this into a much greater issue and called for the coach's head. Where were they when Brett Favre was being hit after the whistle, way after a hand off, and high/low in the NFCC game? Yeah, silent hypocrites abound.
    Good post. A few questions.

    1) The $10,000 fine. Are you saying this guy should get the same fine as Wes Welker doing a snow angel after a TD? Seriously?
    I am sure Welker makes a heck of a lot more than the conditioning coach. A $10,000 fine and a game check are enough.

    Why do you use "seriously" so often. I am not sure it means what you think it means.

    2) You don't think what the guy did could have been career ending? All of us that played football have been blind-sided and hit hard, etc... Just because the hits didn't sideline us or end careers doesn't mean they could not have. Just because Carroll didn't get injured doesn't mean he couldn't have. There are several things that could have happened that didn't. Such as tripping and turning an ankle as an example. No it didn't cause a bad injury but that doesn't mean he wasn't put in jeopardy of it.
    Sure, but it was not a big hit. My wife hit her thigh on the edge of a table harder than that last week, and snowboarders face-plant harder than that almost every time they hit the slopes or pipe.

    3) Don't you think it is the ref's job to call a penalty for gunners staying out of bounds too long? I do. It is not up to coaches and scrub players to make that call.
    It is the job of the refs to enforce the rules, and it is the job of the coaches to reduce exploitations of said rules by any legal means.

    Bottom line is this guy was wrong no matter how anyone tries to slice it. In every facet and form. The Jets punished him as a business as they saw fit. Meaning they punished him to what they thought fit the action. With the question of this guy being a whistle blower I would imagine the Jets would let him off the hook all they could. Therefore I would imagine they would give him the least punishment they could. IMO $10,000 is not enough especially when players have been fined the same for making a freaking snow angel.
    Whistle-blowers are often discredited by taking harsh action against them, so I have doubts about your premise.

    It is likely that the scheme to put coaches and players just out of bounds was ordered from higher than the conditioning coach. It is also likely that sticking out a knee was simply a poor choice by this one coach. He should be punished, but "how much?" is the question.

    Comparing top player and conditioning coach fines is illogical without considering the vast difference in their salaries. Wes Welker is also not losing three game checks.

    We basically both believe the coach should be punished, it is the extent of the punishment that we disagree. It is likely because I own a cat, and you own a dog. It is just a different way of responding to a same problem.

  4. #74
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Jets coach trips Dolphins player during game

    Quote Originally Posted by "Minniman" #1085442
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1085331
    Quote Originally Posted by "Minniman" #1085307
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1084744
    Quote Originally Posted by "Minniman" #1084737
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1084724
    Quote Originally Posted by "Infidel" #1084708
    Oh, players fall down all the time.

    The coach was used as a scapegoat.

    Penalty FAR exceeded the crime.

    If he had a history of tripping players, I'd agree with it.

    Lacking that, it's inappropriate.

    But somebody had to be hung, so he got hung.
    Players do fall down all the time. However, he fell down because an idiot that had no business sticking his knee out hit him. I'm not sure what you don't get about that. What he did was illegal and put the kid's season in jeopardy. One time or ten times, it only takes one time. If that's your argument of excusing this guy then you really don't have much.

    The guy had no business sticking his knee out. It was more than inappropriate. Much more. He was not a scapegoat. He was an idiot for sticking his knee out to intentionally hit a player trying to make a play. In turn, causing possible injury. HE HAD NO BUSINESS DOING WHAT HE DID.
    The player was a yard outside of the field of play, and using that to avoid blocks. It is a well known tactic used on special teams in the NFL. The Dolphins do it, and the Jets are aware of it, because they likely do it to.

    It is not like the coach ran on the field and tripped the player; he was well out of the field of play. His knee was clearly bent before the player got to him, so it wasn't stuck out like a knee to the groin as some of the press would have it reported.

    Was it stupid and obvious? Likely. Did it need to be addressed? Certainly. Did the punishment fit the crime? Not in my opinion.
    The coaches knee was bending as the player approached him. The punishment was by the Jets themselves. Do you honestly believe the Jets (not the NFL) would have punished a coach more than what they should be? Seriously?
    Seriously? Certainly, I would. I have seen this happen many times in real world business, and the NFL is real world business.

    Bottom line is this. He could have been punished more or he could have been punished less. He did something stupid and idiotic in which he had no business doing. He downright admitted to it so I'm not sure why anyone would try to condone or excuse this behavior. He put that player's season and even career in jeopardy. I know it doesn't look like much but how about you run down the sideline at full speed and have someone knee you. See how good that feels. Then see if it doesn't cause an injury.
    Career in jeopardy? Hardly. I have taken blindside, sideline, and low hits from players on the field, so I do know what it feels like.

    Whether or not it is legal for coaches to stand there IMO it is stupid to begin with. They have no busiess being that close to the field of play. And you know what? If I were a gunner and coaches were doing this crap, I would take every opportunity I had to plow into them. Maybe then they would back off to where they should be.
    Again, the coaches were well out of bounds. No player is supposed to be there by the rules of the game.

    Because the refs do not crack down on players abusing the our-of-bounds rules, gunners run out of bounds to avoid blocks with the only restriction that they must re-establish themselves when they can, which is not supposed to be ten to twenty yards, and that they are not the first player to touch the ball.

    The Dolphins were abusing the rule, and the Jets were well within the rules to have coaches and suited players at the outer edge of the sideline to keep the abuse to a minimum. Sticking out a knee was stupid, but he just as well as could have been holding out a clipboard.

    I do believe there should have been punishment in game with an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty given to the bench, and a fine of not more than $10,000 and a single game suspension, but the ex-player talking heads made this into a much greater issue and called for the coach's head. Where were they when Brett Favre was being hit after the whistle, way after a hand off, and high/low in the NFCC game? Yeah, silent hypocrites abound.
    Good post. A few questions.

    1) The $10,000 fine. Are you saying this guy should get the same fine as Wes Welker doing a snow angel after a TD? Seriously?
    I am sure Welker makes a heck of a lot more than the conditioning coach. A $10,000 fine and a game check are enough.

    Why do you use "seriously" so often. I am not sure it means what you think it means.

    2) You don't think what the guy did could have been career ending? All of us that played football have been blind-sided and hit hard, etc... Just because the hits didn't sideline us or end careers doesn't mean they could not have. Just because Carroll didn't get injured doesn't mean he couldn't have. There are several things that could have happened that didn't. Such as tripping and turning an ankle as an example. No it didn't cause a bad injury but that doesn't mean he wasn't put in jeopardy of it.
    Sure, but it was not a big hit. My wife hit her thigh on the edge of a table harder than that last week, and snowboarders face-plant harder than that almost every time they hit the slopes or pipe.

    3) Don't you think it is the ref's job to call a penalty for gunners staying out of bounds too long? I do. It is not up to coaches and scrub players to make that call.
    It is the job of the refs to enforce the rules, and it is the job of the coaches to reduce exploitations of said rules by any legal means.

    Bottom line is this guy was wrong no matter how anyone tries to slice it. In every facet and form. The Jets punished him as a business as they saw fit. Meaning they punished him to what they thought fit the action. With the question of this guy being a whistle blower I would imagine the Jets would let him off the hook all they could. Therefore I would imagine they would give him the least punishment they could. IMO $10,000 is not enough especially when players have been fined the same for making a freaking snow angel.
    Whistle-blowers are often discredited by taking harsh action against them, so I have doubts about your premise.

    It is likely that the scheme to put coaches and players just out of bounds was ordered from higher than the conditioning coach. It is also likely that sticking out a knee was simply a poor choice by this one coach. He should be punished, but "how much?" is the question.

    Comparing top player and conditioning coach fines is illogical without considering the vast difference in their salaries. Wes Welker is also not losing three game checks.

    We basically both believe the coach should be punished, it is the extent of the punishment that we disagree. It is likely because I own a cat, and you own a dog. It is just a different way of responding to a same problem.
    Whether you are a player or conditioning coach or whoever it does not give you the right to impede in a play you are not involved in. That is the point I am trying to make. I use "seriously" as a question because I am in disbelief of what you are trying to say. I know exactly what the word means and it is a phrase often used by many people when they don't agree with something. If you want to start attacking my intelligence then there is nothing more to discuss.

    Whether or not it was a big hit makes absolutely NO difference. He should not have made any contact at all. NONE! So any contact should be taken seriously (there's that word again in a different context) and the fact still remains that you don't know what could have happened. Carroll could have very easily had other injuries that resulted in Alosi's stupidity. It just so happened he didn't but it doesn't mean Alosi should get off the hook. Believe me, Alosi doesn't make bad money being a conditioning coach.

    The extent to which this guy should be punished is where our disconnect is. You are right about that. However, I will stand behind my premise that the Jets, as an organization of the NFL, gave out a punishment as how they saw fit. Being that this guy can come out and say anything, such as "Ryan made me do it" as an example, I would imagine the organization would be very careful as to how they punish him. Therefore giving him the very least punishment as they see fit. The way I look at it is if he can't afford a punishment don't do the crime.

  5. #75
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    Re: Jets coach trips Dolphins player during game

    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1085462
    Quote Originally Posted by "Minniman" #1085442
    It is likely that the scheme to put coaches and players just out of bounds was ordered from higher than the conditioning coach. It is also likely that sticking out a knee was simply a poor choice by this one coach. He should be punished, but "how much?" is the question.

    Comparing top player and conditioning coach fines is illogical without considering the vast difference in their salaries. Wes Welker is also not losing three game checks.

    We basically both believe the coach should be punished, it is the extent of the punishment that we disagree. It is likely because I own a cat, and you own a dog. It is just a different way of responding to a same problem.
    Whether you are a player or conditioning coach or whoever it does not give you the right to impede in a play you are not involved in. That is the point I am trying to make.
    The coach was where he is allowed to be, which is standing at least six yards out of bounds. There is no rule that I have heard that says a player running out of bounds cannot be touched by a coach standing in the designated area. Players run into coaches out of bounds often, and I do not see players being fined for it. Mike Tice was on crutches because a player cut him out of bounds.

    You make it sound like the coach entered the field of play or interfered with a player who was in the field of play. That is not the case; the player was well out of bounds.

    I use "seriously" as a question because I am in disbelief of what you are trying to say. I know exactly what the word means and it is a phrase often used by many people when they don't agree with something. If you want to start attacking my intelligence then there is nothing more to discuss.
    First, I was playing with a famous phrase from The Princess Bride because you use a phrase so often asking, "Seriously?" when the replies indicate this to be the case each and every time.

    Second, to say I am attacking your intelligence is almost laughable when you keep using "seriously?" because that phrase is often considered condescending in friendly conversation. In other words, you protest the insult while you have been consistently insulting others. It borders on hypocrisy. The quote thou "doth protest too much, methinks" would play nice at this point, but alas, it does not mean what most people thinks it means either. Oh well, it is a friendly board, so it shall pass, methinks.

    Whether or not it was a big hit makes absolutely NO difference. He should not have made any contact at all. NONE!
    By what rule? Nolan Carroll was running almost six feet out of bounds. Alosi was within the legal coaches area on the field. The only rule infraction was that the Jets had inactive players in the coaching area as well. There is no rule against a coach pushing off a player that is far enough out of bound that he may interact with the coaches in the designated coaching area. There is no precedent, and there is no rule.

    Carroll, on the other hand, was breaking a rule, as the rule clearly states that a player blocked out of bounds must immediately re-establish himself in bounds. The rule does not say, "Run out of bounds and go ten to fifteen yards, where you cannot be legally blocked by the receiving team, first, and then re-enter the playing field."

    So any contact should be taken seriously (there's that word again in a different context) and the fact still remains that you don't know what could have happened. Carroll could have very easily had other injuries that resulted in Alosi's stupidity. It just so happened he didn't but it doesn't mean Alosi should get off the hook. Believe me, Alosi doesn't make bad money being a conditioning coach.
    Carroll could have been hurt, but so could coaches that get hit when these gunners run so far out of bound and contact coaches, which they do.

    As far as Alosi's salary, I am certain he gets paid good money, but it is not much compared to what high profile players like Wes Welker make, and that is the comparison you were trying to present in your premise.

    The extent to which this guy should be punished is where our disconnect is. You are right about that. However, I will stand behind my premise that the Jets, as an organization of the NFL, gave out a punishment as how they saw fit. Being that this guy can come out and say anything, such as "Ryan made me do it" as an example, I would imagine the organization would be very careful as to how they punish him. Therefore giving him the very least punishment as they see fit. The way I look at it is if he can't afford a punishment don't do the crime.
    Again, Alosi did not actually do a crime, as he broke no actual NFL rule. He did break an unwritten rule about interaction with players out of bounds, but the NFL should be more clear by having better rules.

    On your other point, do you believe Alosi would ever get another job in the NFL if he said, "Rex Ryan made me do it"? No, he is much better off being the fall guy, and that's the saddest part of this.

  6. #76
    Infidel is offline Star Spokesman
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    Re: Jets coach trips Dolphins player during game

    Another possibility here is that they have already made a deal for Alosi to resign without prejudice and reimburse him generously with a fat severance package to buy his silence and compensate for the loss of income and the fine.

    So he ends up with an unsullied record and extra money in his pocket and finds a job with another team.

    I'd say it's either that or keeping him on next year with a fatter contract to reimburse him for the fine and loss of income through the suspension.

    All because Ryan MUST have known of the tactic but just doesn't want to admit it.

    All in all.....as has been said, a lot of hypocrisy and dishonesty and, truly, much ado over nothing.
    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
    --John Wooden

  7. #77
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Jets coach trips Dolphins player during game

    Quote Originally Posted by "Minniman" #1085659
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1085462
    Quote Originally Posted by "Minniman" #1085442
    It is likely that the scheme to put coaches and players just out of bounds was ordered from higher than the conditioning coach. It is also likely that sticking out a knee was simply a poor choice by this one coach. He should be punished, but "how much?" is the question.

    Comparing top player and conditioning coach fines is illogical without considering the vast difference in their salaries. Wes Welker is also not losing three game checks.

    We basically both believe the coach should be punished, it is the extent of the punishment that we disagree. It is likely because I own a cat, and you own a dog. It is just a different way of responding to a same problem.
    Whether you are a player or conditioning coach or whoever it does not give you the right to impede in a play you are not involved in. That is the point I am trying to make.
    The coach was where he is allowed to be, which is standing at least six yards out of bounds. There is no rule that I have heard that says a player running out of bounds cannot be touched by a coach standing in the designated area. Players run into coaches out of bounds often, and I do not see players being fined for it. Mike Tice was on crutches because a player cut him out of bounds.

    You make it sound like the coach entered the field of play or interfered with a player who was in the field of play. That is not the case; the player was well out of bounds.

    I use "seriously" as a question because I am in disbelief of what you are trying to say. I know exactly what the word means and it is a phrase often used by many people when they don't agree with something. If you want to start attacking my intelligence then there is nothing more to discuss.
    First, I was playing with a famous phrase from The Princess Bride because you use a phrase so often asking, "Seriously?" when the replies indicate this to be the case each and every time.

    Second, to say I am attacking your intelligence is almost laughable when you keep using "seriously?" because that phrase is often considered condescending in friendly conversation. In other words, you protest the insult while you have been consistently insulting others. It borders on hypocrisy. The quote thou "doth protest too much, methinks" would play nice at this point, but alas, it does not mean what most people thinks it means either. Oh well, it is a friendly board, so it shall pass, methinks.

    Whether or not it was a big hit makes absolutely NO difference. He should not have made any contact at all. NONE!
    By what rule? Nolan Carroll was running almost six feet out of bounds. Alosi was within the legal coaches area on the field. The only rule infraction was that the Jets had inactive players in the coaching area as well. There is no rule against a coach pushing off a player that is far enough out of bound that he may interact with the coaches in the designated coaching area. There is no precedent, and there is no rule.

    Carroll, on the other hand, was breaking a rule, as the rule clearly states that a player blocked out of bounds must immediately re-establish himself in bounds. The rule does not say, "Run out of bounds and go ten to fifteen yards, where you cannot be legally blocked by the receiving team, first, and then re-enter the playing field."

    So any contact should be taken seriously (there's that word again in a different context) and the fact still remains that you don't know what could have happened. Carroll could have very easily had other injuries that resulted in Alosi's stupidity. It just so happened he didn't but it doesn't mean Alosi should get off the hook. Believe me, Alosi doesn't make bad money being a conditioning coach.
    Carroll could have been hurt, but so could coaches that get hit when these gunners run so far out of bound and contact coaches, which they do.

    As far as Alosi's salary, I am certain he gets paid good money, but it is not much compared to what high profile players like Wes Welker make, and that is the comparison you were trying to present in your premise.

    The extent to which this guy should be punished is where our disconnect is. You are right about that. However, I will stand behind my premise that the Jets, as an organization of the NFL, gave out a punishment as how they saw fit. Being that this guy can come out and say anything, such as "Ryan made me do it" as an example, I would imagine the organization would be very careful as to how they punish him. Therefore giving him the very least punishment as they see fit. The way I look at it is if he can't afford a punishment don't do the crime.
    Again, Alosi did not actually do a crime, as he broke no actual NFL rule. He did break an unwritten rule about interaction with players out of bounds, but the NFL should be more clear by having better rules.

    On your other point, do you believe Alosi would ever get another job in the NFL if he said, "Rex Ryan made me do it"? No, he is much better off being the fall guy, and that's the saddest part of this.
    You make it sound like the coach entered the field of play or interfered with a player who was in the field of play. That is not the case; the player was well out of bounds.
    This is really getting ridiculous. The guy (Alosi) STUCK HIS KNEE OUT AND MADE CONTACT WITH A PLAYER TRYING TO MAKE A PLAY. Let me repeat.... Alosi STUCK HIS KNEE OUT AND MADE CONTACT WITH A PLAYER TRYING TO MAKE A PLAY. Alosi does NOT have that right. I will not debate about this anymore because it is absolutely absurd that you are trying to condone his behavior. Enough said!

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