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  1. #21
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    Re:If rookies go bust, five NFL coaches could go boom

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    If rookies go bust, five NFL coaches could go boom

    No hot seat discussions this year about the Chiller I see. :cheer:
    Chiller has been on the hot seat twice with fans/writers, but I don't think he has been in Zygi's doghouse ever.

    The first time, Adrian Peterson bailed him out - our offense couldn't score, and Peterson came in and blew teams up. That got us to 8-8.

    The second time was last season, when questions about the horrible hole at QB (Jackson vs Rosenfels) had everyone wondering how Chiller was going to get this team over the hump to actually win a play-off game. He saved himself by begging Favre to come out of retirement, and Favre tore up the league.

    Right now, odds are that Favre is coming back. By itself, that makes us the odds on favorite to win the NFCN again, and challange for a shot at the Superbowl. Coaches in that position don't get "Hot seat" treatment.

    However, if Favre doesn't come back - or, if he gets hurt for a long period of time and the team falls back to the 8-8 area, or sputters out early, the pressure will be on Chiller to fix the problem ASAP - and he would then be on the hot seat the following season (From fans and writers).

    With Wilf, it's different. Chiller allows Wilf to feel involved and important...as long as he does that, Wilf will back him.

    Caine
    I agree with this post.

    My issue with the team, a bit is Chilly, but I've said it before, it all starts at the top.

    IMO, Zygi is a great guy to own a team, he's not cheap, and can afford to get things done on the business end. However, he should have no involvement whatsoever on the football end of things. He was never a football guy, and should not have a part of it aside from hiring/firing coaches. He needs to sit Chilly down and tell him to make sure he has his shit together(and I suspect he has, which prompted TJ to be benched and Frerotte to start a couple years ago). Instead, we sign Favre (Good move IMO), but as soon as Favre almost singlehandedly wins a few games, bringing us from a decent record to a great record, Zygi gives him an extension. Poor, poor decision I think.

    With this extension, what has Chilli done? Absolutely nothing. He's relaxed, and no longer feels the pressure to perform because he has a bit of job security.

    A great example of htis was the draft. We ignored some obvious holes that will be coming in the next couple years, and instead opted to trade down, yet somehow come out with fewer picks (that in itself still amazes me) and draft BPA.

    If Chilly was on his last year of the contract, I have no doubt he would have gone after a QB, he would have possibly traded up to get an impact player, such as maybe Weatherspoon or a top S/CB.

    Instead, he knows he now has time on his side, and is willing to take what he gets and see how it goes.

    Some questions, I'd be curious to hear answers: If Chilly's job wasn't on the line, would he have:
    Sat TJ and played Frerotte? I don't think so
    Drafted Harvin? Again, I don't see him taking that risk
    Signed Favre? Maybe, maybe not. Hard to say.


    The thing is, he's taken some awful big risks prior to his extension, knowing he either has to fix the team, or he's out. Its win-win for him. If he fixes the team temporarily(he has), he gets to keep his job. If those risks blow up in his face, he faces the same fate he would have anyway, he's gone and someone else has to clean up his mess.

    I'm going out on a limb here, but I doubt we see any rediculous trades the next couple of years, I doubt we see many high profile signings.
    Not a big limb to go out on, especially when you consider that the Chiller doesn't do any of those things you just mentioned.

    If I'm not mistaken, the VP of Player Personnel is the cat who does all that player aquisition stuff.
    I'm curious... when they interview rookies, who do they say they talk to on the phone? The coach.

    When FA's come for a visit, who takes them for dinner? The Coach

    When Favre was available, who actively pursued him, despite the VP of player personell being skeptical? The coach

    When Harvin had all the negative rap on him, who personally flew down to visit and see what he was about? The coach.

    Yes, Ricky is active in it, but I'm willing to be if Chilly says "No, we need to go this direction", Rick will listen.
    Obviously you don't follow the draft much. In most cases its the GM or even the owner who calls, talks to the player first and then the coach gets on.

    As to the Chiller giving direction? Do we have to say it again, yes, I am sure they both talk about this stuff and yes Spielman will listen, but in the end, they stay true to thier board and Ricky boy drafts the next best one on it.

    Quick question.....When the Tuna said the following...."If they expect me to cook the dinner, you would think they would at least let me pick out some of the groceries"......What do you think that meant?
    Funny you mention the Tuna, because last I checked he was a GM. We lack a GM, therefore the responsibility falls between Chilly, Rick and Wilf. And I can almost guarantee Chilly has more say than anybody else.

    Do you find it odd Chilly always seems to get 'his guys'.

    I'm sure Rick doesn't have an overwhelming urge to sign ex-eagles all the time, but Chilly brings it up, Rick says OK, that seems reasonable, and Wilf says "I like football?"

    Even when Rick doesn't like the guy, Chilly seems to get him anyway (See: Favre) How do you explain that one.
    Do you really think that Sage was a Chiller guy?
    I never said Rick has no say. He'll bring up a guy, but I think ultimately, if Chilly says he doesn't want the guy, then we don't get the guy. Chilly's the one who deals wiht the players on a daily basis, not Rick. Chilly comes up with the schemes, not Rick.

    Lets pretend the Vikings org is like any other corporate organization.

    Wilf is the CEO
    Rob is the VP of Finance
    Rick is the head of HR
    Chilly is the departmental manager.

    When you go for interviews for jobs, who do you interview with? Your supervisor/Manager. He determines whether you're someone he can stand to look at every day. He determines whether you have the skills required for the job. The HR guy signs the papers, runs background checks and makes sure there's no red flags. Sometimes the HR guy is a part of the interview, but not always. Sometimes the HR guy will do hires by himself, but its still cleared by the manager.
    In my comany, I don't even look at a resume until the HR people find someone who seems to fit what I am looking for.

    I surely don't waste my time, that is supposed to be spent on managing/developing my people, looking through all the resumes out there and then bring them in.

    Just like in the NFL. I tell the HR people the kindof of person I want, they go out and try to find X amount of people that fit the bill, then I, along with the HR people interview those cats, but only after they have narrowed the list down to candidates that are what I am looking for.
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  2. #22
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    Re:If rookies go bust, five NFL coaches could go boom

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    also, just to add to that.

    I have the feeling Rick & Rob are more involved in trades than FA signings. Its not really Chilly's department dealing with trades and whatnot. I'd give him Allen and Sage, as he played a huge role in that I'm sure

    however, I'm sure Chilly still has a huge say in the players traded/traded for.

    In the end, it takes the cooperation of all involved.

    Chilly targets/recruits the guys he wants with the ASSISTANCE of scouting staff and Rick. Rick and Chilly work to gether to come up with an arrangement for the player, then its Rob's job to talk contract and salary. Wilf still sits back, unsure if he still likes the Giants or no.
    But you've wrong on this one little account.....

    Chilly targets/recruits the guys he wants with the ASSISTANCE of scouting staff and Rick.
    The Chiller and his COACHING staff don't go out and find players that fit thier needs.

    I've posted evidence of this numerous times. What really happens is at the end of the season, the Coaching staff briefs Spielmans staff on what/where they think they are with respect to each player and each position.

    From that brief, the Scouting staff (not the coaching staff) goes out and finds a mix/match of possible FA and Rook candidates that can/could solve those issues.

    They then run them up the flagpole with the Coaching staff and our Capologist (Brycheapski) and they then try to get them in, either via the draft of a FA signing.

    Again, not sure what is so hard to comprehend that the scouts scout and the coaches coach. To think the coaches spend thier time doing something other than coaching is kindof crazy.

    That isn't to say that they don't look at tape on the guys, cause they do, but it is closer to the HR thing I mentioned above. They don't look at all the tape (resumes) they only look at the ones the scouts bring in.
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  3. #23
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    Re:If rookies go bust, five NFL coaches could go boom

    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    for that last time the draft went awry? It wasn't the HC my friend. It was the guy in charge of the draft.
    Do you even know why he was fired?
    I know the whole story, I even know what the owner said after the fallout from all of it.

    Do you?
    I Don't know what Wilf said, but I know why he was fired.

    Lying on his resume, Harsh, controlling management styles, causing tension in the FO, and the terrible draft decisions was just icing on the cake.

    Foley was hired after Tagliabue recommended Wilf get an experienced guy to make decisions, since Wilf was not a football guy. He came in and totaly screwed the pooch. That offseason it seemed Foley had the say in all decisions that offseason.

    Do you really think Wilf, after realizing what he had done would put that much power in another VP of football operations hands?

    You might notice, Rick hasn't been criticized for his harsh, controlling style. Almost sounds like he's not the #1 guy when it comes to making player decisions, like you might like to believe.

  4. #24
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    Re:If rookies go bust, five NFL coaches could go boom

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    for that last time the draft went awry? It wasn't the HC my friend. It was the guy in charge of the draft.
    Do you even know why he was fired?
    I know the whole story, I even know what the owner said after the fallout from all of it.

    Do you?
    I Don't know what Wilf said, but I know why he was fired.

    Lying on his resume, Harsh, controlling management styles, causing tension in the FO, and the terrible draft decisions was just icing on the cake.

    Foley was hired after Tagliabue recommended Wilf get an experienced guy to make decisions, since Wilf was not a football guy. He came in and totaly screwed the pooch. That offseason it seemed Foley had the say in all decisions that offseason.

    Do you really think Wilf, after realizing what he had done would put that much power in another VP of football operations hands?

    You might notice, Rick hasn't been criticized for his harsh, controlling style. Almost sounds like he's not the #1 guy when it comes to making player decisions, like you might like to believe.
    Almost sounds is correct, but not quite right.

    The way this thing is structured is that all 3 have an equal say, but they all have to agree on the player/personnel move. Not 2, not 1, but 3.

    As to what Mr. Wilf said, he said that from now on, if the 3 of them can't come to an agreement, he would be the deciding vote.

    Again, after the staff that works for Spielman finds some possible candidates, they all sit down, go over those candidates, agree on the ranking, and then Ricky boy drafts off of that ranking.

    Now if, for some reason, a cat were to fall to them, or come availiable in FA, that they didn't talk about, I am sure they have a quick powwow and all come to an agreement on how to react.

    But don't believe for one minute that the HC has the lions share of the vote. Very few HC's have even a sniff of the say that the Chiller has. In most cases, the HC just coaches what players he is given. Very few succeed trying to do both.
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  5. #25
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    Re:If rookies go bust, five NFL coaches could go boom

    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    If rookies go bust, five NFL coaches could go boom

    No hot seat discussions this year about the Chiller I see. :cheer:
    Chiller has been on the hot seat twice with fans/writers, but I don't think he has been in Zygi's doghouse ever.

    The first time, Adrian Peterson bailed him out - our offense couldn't score, and Peterson came in and blew teams up. That got us to 8-8.

    The second time was last season, when questions about the horrible hole at QB (Jackson vs Rosenfels) had everyone wondering how Chiller was going to get this team over the hump to actually win a play-off game. He saved himself by begging Favre to come out of retirement, and Favre tore up the league.

    Right now, odds are that Favre is coming back. By itself, that makes us the odds on favorite to win the NFCN again, and challange for a shot at the Superbowl. Coaches in that position don't get "Hot seat" treatment.

    However, if Favre doesn't come back - or, if he gets hurt for a long period of time and the team falls back to the 8-8 area, or sputters out early, the pressure will be on Chiller to fix the problem ASAP - and he would then be on the hot seat the following season (From fans and writers).

    With Wilf, it's different. Chiller allows Wilf to feel involved and important...as long as he does that, Wilf will back him.

    Caine
    I agree with this post.

    My issue with the team, a bit is Chilly, but I've said it before, it all starts at the top.

    IMO, Zygi is a great guy to own a team, he's not cheap, and can afford to get things done on the business end. However, he should have no involvement whatsoever on the football end of things. He was never a football guy, and should not have a part of it aside from hiring/firing coaches. He needs to sit Chilly down and tell him to make sure he has his shit together(and I suspect he has, which prompted TJ to be benched and Frerotte to start a couple years ago). Instead, we sign Favre (Good move IMO), but as soon as Favre almost singlehandedly wins a few games, bringing us from a decent record to a great record, Zygi gives him an extension. Poor, poor decision I think.

    With this extension, what has Chilli done? Absolutely nothing. He's relaxed, and no longer feels the pressure to perform because he has a bit of job security.

    A great example of htis was the draft. We ignored some obvious holes that will be coming in the next couple years, and instead opted to trade down, yet somehow come out with fewer picks (that in itself still amazes me) and draft BPA.

    If Chilly was on his last year of the contract, I have no doubt he would have gone after a QB, he would have possibly traded up to get an impact player, such as maybe Weatherspoon or a top S/CB.

    Instead, he knows he now has time on his side, and is willing to take what he gets and see how it goes.

    Some questions, I'd be curious to hear answers: If Chilly's job wasn't on the line, would he have:
    Sat TJ and played Frerotte? I don't think so
    Drafted Harvin? Again, I don't see him taking that risk
    Signed Favre? Maybe, maybe not. Hard to say.


    The thing is, he's taken some awful big risks prior to his extension, knowing he either has to fix the team, or he's out. Its win-win for him. If he fixes the team temporarily(he has), he gets to keep his job. If those risks blow up in his face, he faces the same fate he would have anyway, he's gone and someone else has to clean up his mess.

    I'm going out on a limb here, but I doubt we see any rediculous trades the next couple of years, I doubt we see many high profile signings.
    Not a big limb to go out on, especially when you consider that the Chiller doesn't do any of those things you just mentioned.

    If I'm not mistaken, the VP of Player Personnel is the cat who does all that player aquisition stuff.
    I'm curious... when they interview rookies, who do they say they talk to on the phone? The coach.

    When FA's come for a visit, who takes them for dinner? The Coach

    When Favre was available, who actively pursued him, despite the VP of player personell being skeptical? The coach

    When Harvin had all the negative rap on him, who personally flew down to visit and see what he was about? The coach.

    Yes, Ricky is active in it, but I'm willing to be if Chilly says "No, we need to go this direction", Rick will listen.
    Obviously you don't follow the draft much. In most cases its the GM or even the owner who calls, talks to the player first and then the coach gets on.

    As to the Chiller giving direction? Do we have to say it again, yes, I am sure they both talk about this stuff and yes Spielman will listen, but in the end, they stay true to thier board and Ricky boy drafts the next best one on it.

    Quick question.....When the Tuna said the following...."If they expect me to cook the dinner, you would think they would at least let me pick out some of the groceries"......What do you think that meant?
    Funny you mention the Tuna, because last I checked he was a GM. We lack a GM, therefore the responsibility falls between Chilly, Rick and Wilf. And I can almost guarantee Chilly has more say than anybody else.

    Do you find it odd Chilly always seems to get 'his guys'.

    I'm sure Rick doesn't have an overwhelming urge to sign ex-eagles all the time, but Chilly brings it up, Rick says OK, that seems reasonable, and Wilf says "I like football?"

    Even when Rick doesn't like the guy, Chilly seems to get him anyway (See: Favre) How do you explain that one.
    Do you really think that Sage was a Chiller guy?
    I never said Rick has no say. He'll bring up a guy, but I think ultimately, if Chilly says he doesn't want the guy, then we don't get the guy. Chilly's the one who deals wiht the players on a daily basis, not Rick. Chilly comes up with the schemes, not Rick.

    Lets pretend the Vikings org is like any other corporate organization.

    Wilf is the CEO
    Rob is the VP of Finance
    Rick is the head of HR
    Chilly is the departmental manager.

    When you go for interviews for jobs, who do you interview with? Your supervisor/Manager. He determines whether you're someone he can stand to look at every day. He determines whether you have the skills required for the job. The HR guy signs the papers, runs background checks and makes sure there's no red flags. Sometimes the HR guy is a part of the interview, but not always. Sometimes the HR guy will do hires by himself, but its still cleared by the manager.
    In my comany, I don't even look at a resume until the HR people find someone who seems to fit what I am looking for.

    I surely don't waste my time, that is supposed to be spent on managing/developing my people, looking through all the resumes out there and then bring them in.

    Just like in the NFL. I tell the HR people the kindof of person I want, they go out and try to find X amount of people that fit the bill, then I, along with the HR people interview those cats, but only after they have narrowed the list down to candidates that are what I am looking for.
    Ok, so if you are hiring a student for the summer, and you have a friend who's son has the qualifications, you wouldn't offer him an interview?

    I'm certain Chilly does tell Rick & Scouts what type of player he wants, but Chilly also does a bunch of the work, especially in the offseason.

    They'll make recommendations, and Chilly also will pursue his own guys. (You still haven't explained the whole Favre scenario, or is it more convenient to ignore it?)


    Lets look at it the other way. When guys get cut, who do you think is responsible for that?

    Spielman doesn't watch every practice, he doesn't sit on the sideline listing to players attitudes, or know who blew up their assignment. Thats up to the coaches.

    Watch HBO's Hard Knocks, I watched a few episodes of that, specifically the cowboys one. I know they probably change a few things to make it more tv friendly, but I doubt they change their corporate structure just for TV.

    During TC and preseason, they play and evaluate all the players, then the HC, GM, and Coordinators meet and discuss who shoudl stay and who should go. In the end, its the coach who meets with the player and lets him go.

    All new signings/firings go through the coach. he's the face the player will see on a daily basis, its who they'll talk to and meet. If the coach says 'absolutely not', or 'we need ot have him', Rick, Rob & Wilf will do allt hey can to make it happen

  6. #26
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    Re:If rookies go bust, five NFL coaches could go boom

    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    for that last time the draft went awry? It wasn't the HC my friend. It was the guy in charge of the draft.
    Do you even know why he was fired?
    I know the whole story, I even know what the owner said after the fallout from all of it.

    Do you?
    I Don't know what Wilf said, but I know why he was fired.

    Lying on his resume, Harsh, controlling management styles, causing tension in the FO, and the terrible draft decisions was just icing on the cake.

    Foley was hired after Tagliabue recommended Wilf get an experienced guy to make decisions, since Wilf was not a football guy. He came in and totaly screwed the pooch. That offseason it seemed Foley had the say in all decisions that offseason.

    Do you really think Wilf, after realizing what he had done would put that much power in another VP of football operations hands?

    You might notice, Rick hasn't been criticized for his harsh, controlling style. Almost sounds like he's not the #1 guy when it comes to making player decisions, like you might like to believe.
    Almost sounds is correct, but not quite right.

    The way this thing is structured is that all 3 have an equal say, but they all have to agree on the player/personnel move. Not 2, not 1, but 3.

    As to what Mr. Wilf said, he said that from now on, if the 3 of them can't come to an agreement, he would be the deciding vote.

    Again, after the staff that works for Spielman finds some possible candidates, they all sit down, go over those candidates, agree on the ranking, and then Ricky boy drafts off of that ranking.

    Now if, for some reason, a cat were to fall to them, or come availiable in FA, that they didn't talk about, I am sure they have a quick powwow and all come to an agreement on how to react.

    But don't believe for one minute that the HC has the lions share of the vote. Very few HC's have even a sniff of the say that the Chiller has. In most cases, the HC just coaches what players he is given. Very few succeed trying to do both.
    Not saying that Chilly has a majority vote, but the other two can be swayed (again, see Favre)

    Chilly says he wants a guy, Rick's not so sure. I'm willing to bet Chilly can convince him.

    And I get the impression that Wilf is easilly swayed, otherwise Chilly wouldn't have an extension.

  7. #27
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    Re:If rookies go bust, five NFL coaches could go boom

    In the end, it comes down to this.

    Do you really think Chilly has to get what he is given?
    I sure don't. Yes, Rick has a large say, however I think Chilly has a bigger say.

    You bring up the Tuna, yet he was brought in for the sole purpose of turning that franchise around. He's expected to make those decisions, because the coaches and previous GM have shown they can't.

    We bring in a VP of player personel (Note: Not a GM) to assist with player decisions. Note, its assist, not control. We hadn't had an issue bringing in great players before, he was hired just because Wilf had no idea what he was doing.

    I have another question for you.

    When Chilly first signed on, he said that his strategy was to solidify both lines, as a powerful team starts in the trenches.

    What happens then? We sign Hutch to a massive contract, We traded for Jared Allen, we drafted guys to replace prior studs* like Rosenthal. You don't think Chilly had much to do with that?

    * denotes sarcasm

  8. #28
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    Re:If rookies go bust, five NFL coaches could go boom

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Ok, so if you are hiring a student for the summer, and you have a friend who's son has the qualifications, you wouldn't offer him an interview?

    I'm certain Chilly does tell Rick & Scouts what type of player he wants, but Chilly also does a bunch of the work, especially in the offseason.
    Actually, we have company laws that keep me from hiring family members or friends.

    Keeps me from bringing in employees that would then owe me favours.

    As to yoru comment on the offseason work. Again, they do watch the tape the scouts bring in, mostly on rooks. The pro's they know about from thier weekly gameplanning.

    If you watch teams, they will go after Vets from teams, in most cases, that they faced the previous year.

    They'll make recommendations, and Chilly also will pursue his own guys. (You still haven't explained the whole Favre scenario, or is it more convenient to ignore it?)
    What is to explain? As with all Vets of interest, the FO pukes track/watch whats going on especially the ones that fit the coaches requirements.

    In the case of the Noodle, what I believe happened is our coaching staff, illegally (see my comment about bringing in friends/family) pursued a QB that was under contract with the PUKERS.

    The PUKERS, in response to that, when they traded said players, wrote verbiage into the trade that kept him from being re-traded by the Jets.

    In the end, because the Coaches got involved to early, it delayed said player from becoming a Viking for a year. If the coaches would have kept thier nose in thier own dept, we would have probably had to watch the Noodle for 3 years instead of 2.


    Lets look at it the other way. When guys get cut, who do you think is responsible for that?
    Now your shifting the discussion. Once they are on the team, they are under the Coaching staffs perview. If the coaching staff think someone needs to be axed, they tell the FO pukes, in this case Spielman and a whole different group of people get involved, Legal (works for Spielman) PR (Works for Spielman) and Bryzcheapski (Works Cap issues related to firing).

    All this stuff below tracks with that, except to say that the FO pukes don't watch the players.

    Ever see shots of Spielman in the sky box, or on the practice field. Again, thats the Chillers domain, were he has all the say, but Ole Ricky boy is down there getting direct feedback from the coaches with respect to the product he and his scouts found.
    Spielman doesn't watch every practice, he doesn't sit on the sideline listing to players attitudes, or know who blew up their assignment. Thats up to the coaches.

    Watch HBO's Hard Knocks, I watched a few episodes of that, specifically the cowboys one. I know they probably change a few things to make it more tv friendly, but I doubt they change their corporate structure just for TV.

    During TC and preseason, they play and evaluate all the players, then the HC, GM, and Coordinators meet and discuss who shoudl stay and who should go. In the end, its the coach who meets with the player and lets him go.

    All new signings/firings go through the coach. he's the face the player will see on a daily basis, its who they'll talk to and meet. If the coach says 'absolutely not', or 'we need ot have him', Rick, Rob & Wilf will do allt hey can to make it happen
    On a side note, love Hard Knocks.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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    Re:If rookies go bust, five NFL coaches could go boom

    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Ok, so if you are hiring a student for the summer, and you have a friend who's son has the qualifications, you wouldn't offer him an interview?

    I'm certain Chilly does tell Rick & Scouts what type of player he wants, but Chilly also does a bunch of the work, especially in the offseason.
    Actually, we have company laws that keep me from hiring family members or friends.

    Keeps me from bringing in employees that would then owe me favours.

    As to yoru comment on the offseason work. Again, they do watch the tape the scouts bring in, mostly on rooks. The pro's they know about from thier weekly gameplanning.

    If you watch teams, they will go after Vets from teams, in most cases, that they faced the previous year.
    I suppose different companies have different policies. The last two jobs I got were due to being friends/related with a manager. Evidently, thats not in place in the NFL, as Tom Coughlin's son-in-law is an OG for the giants, and Chilly regularly brings in his guys.

    They'll make recommendations, and Chilly also will pursue his own guys. (You still haven't explained the whole Favre scenario, or is it more convenient to ignore it?)
    What is to explain? As with all Vets of interest, the FO pukes track/watch whats going on especially the ones that fit the coaches requirements.
    Well, you could start by explaining how Favre ended up on the team when Spielman specifically said he didn't want him. Would almost sound like Chilly's input trumps Ricks

    In the case of the Noodle, what I believe happened is our coaching staff, illegally (see my comment about bringing in friends/family) pursued a QB that was under contract with the PUKERS.

    The PUKERS, in response to that, when they traded said players, wrote verbiage into the trade that kept him from being re-traded by the Jets.

    In the end, because the Coaches got involved to early, it delayed said player from becoming a Viking for a year. If the coaches would have kept thier nose in thier own dept, we would have probably had to watch the Noodle for 3 years instead of 2.
    You odn't think they did that because they knew Favre had talent, and they knew we were a QB away from being legitmate SB contenders? What would you think if Tarkenton was a Viking right now in his prime, but he expressed an interest to be a Packer. Would you just let him walk, or woudl you do everything you could to make sure you don't have to play him twice a year?

    Lets look at it the other way. When guys get cut, who do you think is responsible for that?
    Now your shifting the discussion. Once they are on the team, they are under the Coaching staffs perview. If the coaching staff think someone needs to be axed, they tell the FO pukes, in this case Spielman and a whole different group of people get involved, Legal (works for Spielman) PR (Works for Spielman) and Bryzcheapski (Works Cap issues related to firing).
    Shifted, yes, still related? absolutely.

    Again, back to your job. When you're hiring a guy, once you have him in for an interview, who makes the final call? I'm sure you have a huge say in it. HR might give their recommendation, but it ultimately comes down to you, no?

    Ever see shots of Spielman in the sky box, or on the practice field. Again, thats the Chillers domain, were he has all the say, but Ole Ricky boy is down there getting direct feedback from the coaches with respect to the product he and his scouts found.
    Which is exactly my point.

    Spilman is there to assist, but not to control. Spielman isn't there all the time, he doesn't interact with the players. He's there to help find players that fit what CHilly is looking for. (note, what Chilly, not Rick is looking for), then hands them over to Chilly for evaluation. Chilly can also bring his own guys he found by himself in.

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    Re:If rookies go bust, five NFL coaches could go boom

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    In the end, it comes down to this.

    Do you really think Chilly has to get what he is given?
    I sure don't. Yes, Rick has a large say, however I think Chilly has a bigger say.
    But he doesn't have a bigger say. He has an equal say, just as Bryzcheapski has a equal say.

    Think of it this way, the Chiller might need DT help on his roster. He then expresses that to the FO pukes.

    Spielman and company come up with 4 options. 1 is a Vet that will command $100 dollars, the other 3 are rooks that will command $10 dollars.

    If Bryz can't juggle the books to come up with the $100 bucks, who do you think the Chiller will get?

    Hopefully he will get the top rated rook, but he might wind up with the 3rd ranked rook because of were we picked.

    You bring up the Tuna, yet he was brought in for the sole purpose of turning that franchise around. He's expected to make those decisions, because the coaches and previous GM have shown they can't.
    So who is picking the players? The Tuna, his GM or his Coach?

    Mangenious and Holmgren are another prime example. Holmgren tried to be a HC and GM in GB. They wouldn't let him so he moved on to Seattle were they let him muck about doing both, in the end, he couldn't because it took up to much of his time to try to do both (Scout players and coach them). Mangenious tried to do the same when he got to the Browns. That effort was short lived.

    How about Pioli and Bellicheat. Who is the shot caller there? I think these guys are real close to what the Vikes have.

    Another good one is Shannahan in Denver. That cat was a SB winning coach, until he got to big and things started to fall apart on and off the field. Enter the Deadskins and Mr Allen. Who do you think is calling those shots? Keep in mind that the Allen family are considered royalty in Va.

    We bring in a VP of player personel (Note: Not a GM) to assist with player decisions. Note, its assist, not control. We hadn't had an issue bringing in great players before, he was hired just because Wilf had no idea what he was doing.
    Did you ever look at how the Vikings staffs are organized? Spielman is in the Executive Branch, not the coaching staff.

    On a side note, I re-visited his Bio again, I see alot of words like "Oversee" but no were does it say "Assist".

    Spielman Bio

    I have another question for you.

    When Chilly first signed on, he said that his strategy was to solidify both lines, as a powerful team starts in the trenches.

    What happens then? We sign Hutch to a massive contract, We traded for Jared Allen, we drafted guys to replace prior studs* like Rosenthal. You don't think Chilly had much to do with that?

    * denotes sarcasm
    Again, back to the end of season (in this case taking over) coaches brief to the FO pukes.

    That is were he articulated what players he needed. The FO pukes came up with the plan to address them, not only that year, but over a long term period. That plan, was then briefed back to not only the coaching staff for concurrence, the the Ownership group as well.

    As I said, Bryzcheapski gets involved when this stuff is discussed. Unless he has the cash, they (the coaches) don't get a guy like Hutch, but rather would have to settle for a rook (Enter Cook).

    Question back at you, do you really think the Chiller meant adding rooks across his line as "Solidifying it" or do you think he would rather have had several vets of Hutch's caliber brought in. In the end, he got what he got based on how much cash was available and what players they could draft or bring in via FA that stayed within those budget constraints.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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