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  1. #41
    tastywaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleedpurple View Post
    I agree with everything you said aside from Ponder being a good pick.... Pretty much everyone was scratching their head when they took him... they took him extremely high, (would have rather seen a trade back but whatev)... We are all still wondering what the HELL they saw in this dude to take him with the 12th overall pick... 12th overall pick?? what a waste....
    I wasn't making a statement about Ponder specifically, more about the philosophy. Simply saying that if the scouting/coaching staff believed that Ponder had the potential to be a franchise QB, then whether he is a so called "reach" or not is irrelevant. Too big of a risk too wait and pick him later if you believe in him. QB's get selected above their grade all the time because of the risk/reward tradeoff. It's more about their belief in the pick based on their research. The fact that it looks like he may not work out is more of a statement against the research process done to lead to the decision.

    I don't pretend to know about a particular athlete selected in the draft compared the enormous amount of energy expended by staffs dedicated to this task. Talking heads rating prospects is lower on my list than an NFL team's resources. They are influenced by overrated media exposure just like everyone else.

    I try not to get caught up on anyone's rankings of where a draft prospect belongs to be picked. All that matters is whether or not that guy delivers to expectations. Ponder has not to date, and is a failed pick at this point, but saying I knew it from the beginning or anyone on this site saying they knew it from the beginning has less validity to me. No different in my mind than saying I knew that marble was going to land on red, then when it does, I'm a genius.

  2. #42
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    I wasn't making a statement about Ponder specifically, more about the philosophy. Simply saying that if the scouting/coaching staff believed that Ponder had the potential to be a franchise QB, then whether he is a so called "reach" or not is irrelevant. Too big of a risk too wait and pick him later if you believe in him. QB's get selected above their grade all the time because of the risk/reward tradeoff. It's more about their belief in the pick based on their research. The fact that it looks like he may not work out is more of a statement against the research process done to lead to the decision.

    I don't pretend to know about a particular athlete selected in the draft compared the enormous amount of energy expended by staffs dedicated to this task. Talking heads rating prospects is lower on my list than an NFL team's resources. They are influenced by overrated media exposure just like everyone else.

    I try not to get caught up on anyone's rankings of where a draft prospect belongs to be picked. All that matters is whether or not that guy delivers to expectations. Ponder has not to date, and is a failed pick at this point, but saying I knew it from the beginning or anyone on this site saying they knew it from the beginning has less validity to me. No different in my mind than saying I knew that marble was going to land on red, then when it does, I'm a genius.
    I understand what you are saying... but I just don't agree... Whether you take my word for it, an espn pundit, or someone else on this site. the fact of the matter remains it was a reach by all accounts. Sometimes ppl are wrong, but even the scouting report knocks on him weren't worthy of a top 12 pick. Additionally, looking at the track records of our guys in the front office in finding a quality signal caller gives even less credence to the pick. I mean Spielman traded for Sage Rosenfels twice, gave a second round pick up for AJ Feely and signed Jay Fielder as QBs of the future. Not to mention the 2 picks and a swap of the 4th for Ricky Williams. Bottom line, it was a risky pick for a top 12 pick esp. when there were 3 other QB's taken ahead of him in what was a weak QB class..

    Additionally, look who went in the 2nd round after Ponder. Andy Dalton and Colin Kapernick.

    I'm just sayin!!!
    Last edited by bleedpurple; 12-17-2012 at 02:55 PM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleedpurple View Post
    I understand what you are saying... but I just don't agree... Whether you take my word for it, an espn pundit, or someone else on this site. the fact of the matter remains it was a reach by all accounts. Sometimes ppl are wrong, but even the scouting report knocks on him weren't worthy of a top 12 pick. Additionally, looking at the track records of our guys in the front office in finding a quality signal caller gives even less credence to the pick. I mean Spielman traded for Sage Rosenfels twice, gave a second round pick up for AJ Feely and signed Jay Fielder as QBs of the future. Not to mention the 2 picks and a swap of the 4th for Ricky Williams. Bottom line, it was a risky pick for a top 12 pick esp. when there were 3 other QB's taken ahead of him in what was a weak QB class..

    Additionally, look who went in the 2nd round after Ponder. Andy Dalton and Colin Kapernick.

    I'm just sayin!!!
    If we had taken Dalton or Colin at #12 then it would have been okay? Guess the analysts and experts screwed the pooch on these guys. They now look like they should have been 1st round talent. Guess it's hard to figure out what is going to make a successful QB in this league?

    I get you don't like the pick and you don't trust the guys making the picks. That is a different issue than whether or not you should take a QB much higher than he is rated. And I won't defend our staff on identifying QB talent. They may simply not be able to do it, very few orgs apparently are capable. If that is the case, they should bring in someone that can.

    It's not an exact science and there is a fair amount of a gamble anytime you pick a QB in the draft. As an organization, we have very rarely used a first round pick to select a QB and I contend that is the best way to get a franchise QB. They probably screwed up with Ponder, but if it had been Dalton or Kapernick that they "reached for" it would have looked brilliant right now.

    I'm also not convinced we can develop a QB effectively regardless of who is picked.

    In any case, it's much easier to just say Ponder sucks, he has always sucked and any one with half a brain should have known that.

  4. #44
    smegmavike is offline Coordinator
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    Before we ventured down the Ponder path, their were a lot of people tired of recycled QB's in Minnesota, myself included. Cunningham, Favre, and perhaps, Ferrotte were somewhat successful. But it's obvious that franchise QB's win championships far more often than free agents.
    Ponder doesn't appear to be a franchise QB at this point. But I'm sure he will be given another year to prove whether he is or not.
    The organization believes in him and the team has exceeded expectations in a rebuilding year, despite Ponder.
    So I will continue to be critical but also will look forward to see what happens with a better receiving corpse, and hopefully a calmer, and wiser, Ponder.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    If we had taken Dalton or Colin at #12 then it would have been okay? Guess the analysts and experts screwed the pooch on these guys. They now look like they should have been 1st round talent. Guess it's hard to figure out what is going to make a successful QB in this league?

    I get you don't like the pick and you don't trust the guys making the picks. That is a different issue than whether or not you should take a QB much higher than he is rated. And I won't defend our staff on identifying QB talent. They may simply not be able to do it, very few orgs apparently are capable. If that is the case, they should bring in someone that can.

    It's not an exact science and there is a fair amount of a gamble anytime you pick a QB in the draft. As an organization, we have very rarely used a first round pick to select a QB and I contend that is the best way to get a franchise QB. They probably screwed up with Ponder, but if it had been Dalton or Kapernick that they "reached for" it would have looked brilliant right now.

    I'm also not convinced we can develop a QB effectively regardless of who is picked.

    In any case, it's much easier to just say Ponder sucks, he has always sucked and any one with half a brain should have known that.
    I don't think this staff would have faired much better with Andy or Colin, Andy sitting behind McNabb for part of a season then getting banged around with out a receiver like Green here would have probably messed up his career. As for Colin he did get a year to prep before hitting the field, the niners have a good defense, running game and more than one receiver but their staff has also done things for him by running some pistol stuff that fit him, as well he is a smart strong athlete. I was surprised during the niner game lastnight when they said only Nevada had offered him a scholarship and that he had several for baseball and had been drafted by the Cubs. I've been really impressed with Kaepernick progress but we don't have anybody here with the Vikings that could have done things the way Harbaugh has to develop Colin or the same balance on the team. The niners were a playoff winning team last year and Ponder might have become a game manager like Smith over there but some of the other young QBs in the league would just get rattled in our anemic passing mess.

    I think guys like Ponder, Smith and Flynn are more of a smart game manager that need a balanced team around them for things to work and a coordinator to work with them in running the offense due to the lack of a rifle arm, we don't have that or the talent to support these guys and Ponder was a reach in the draft but thats where the Vikings were, Locker was a reach too and has had his issues and he has Matt Hasselbeck to work with and the Vikings brought in McFlabb to bridge the gap to give Ponder some time and that was a big mistake.

  6. #46
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    Another thread which makes me feel stupider for having read it.

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus View Post
    Another thread which makes me feel stupider for having read it.

    =Z=
    You could just go back to playing in traffic for while.

  8. #48
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    If we had taken Dalton or Colin at #12 then it would have been okay? Guess the analysts and experts screwed the pooch on these guys. They now look like they should have been 1st round talent. Guess it's hard to figure out what is going to make a successful QB in this league?

    I get you don't like the pick and you don't trust the guys making the picks. That is a different issue than whether or not you should take a QB much higher than he is rated. And I won't defend our staff on identifying QB talent. They may simply not be able to do it, very few orgs apparently are capable. If that is the case, they should bring in someone that can.

    It's not an exact science and there is a fair amount of a gamble anytime you pick a QB in the draft. As an organization, we have very rarely used a first round pick to select a QB and I contend that is the best way to get a franchise QB. They probably screwed up with Ponder, but if it had been Dalton or Kapernick that they "reached for" it would have looked brilliant right now.

    I'm also not convinced we can develop a QB effectively regardless of who is picked.

    In any case, it's much easier to just say Ponder sucks, he has always sucked and any one with half a brain should have known that.
    NO, the point i'm trying to make is that we should not have reached for Ponder there when Dalton, and Kapernick probably graded out about the same with 2nd round grades and most likely one of them would have been there in the 2nd round for our pick....

    I don't mind reaching a few picks for a QB, but to pick a QB an entire round too early hurts the overall talent of the franchise... we could have possibly traded back to late in the first and still gotten Ponder... worst case gone into the season with Joe Webb and a Kapernick type Qb, gone 3-13 and had a chance at RG3 or Luck the next year...

    A lot of hypotheticals, but my point is that you take the BPA when you are rebuilding... reaching for a QB and missing like we did sets a rebuilding franchise back years... See Cleveland (couch), Houston (carr), Raiders (russel), etc. etc....

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleedpurple View Post
    NO, the point i'm trying to make is that we should not have reached for Ponder there when Dalton, and Kapernick probably graded out about the same with 2nd round grades and most likely one of them would have been there in the 2nd round for our pick....

    I don't mind reaching a few picks for a QB, but to pick a QB an entire round too early hurts the overall talent of the franchise... we could have possibly traded back to late in the first and still gotten Ponder... worst case gone into the season with Joe Webb and a Kapernick type Qb, gone 3-13 and had a chance at RG3 or Luck the next year...

    A lot of hypotheticals, but my point is that you take the BPA when you are rebuilding... reaching for a QB and missing like we did sets a rebuilding franchise back years... See Cleveland (couch), Houston (carr), Raiders (russel), etc. etc....
    I think it was more the missing than the reaching that hurt them. I don't remember Russell, Couch or Carr being considered considerable "reaches" by the so-called experts. Even if they were, that's not what hurt them. The fact they couldn't judge their talent is what hurt them. Just like all the analysts that had them rated as high as they were.

    And how do you know where our staff graded out Ponder compared to Dalton or Kapernick? If your just believing all the draft analysts, who we've just discussed, then that is not a very convincing argument. Especially with QB's.

    Look at this year's cast of QB's in the 2013 draft. I have read a dozen different sites and I don't think there is consensus between any two of them. If a franchise believes in a guy, they will go after him, even if it's way before Mel's big board predicted. Nobody wants to pick a person too early, but they also don't want to give another franchise the chance of taking someone they covet. IMO, they are only wrong when the guy doesn't work out.

  10. #50
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    the Russel, couch, and Carr argument is meant strictly to say that missing will set your franchise back.. so we are in agreement....

    So when you "REACH" for a first round pick that arguably should have been drafted in the 2nd round with a top 12 pick you 1. hurt your franchise bc you reached instead of going BPA in a rebuilding effort. Second, if you do reach.. you sure as hell better be right... The vikings did both and failed miserably....

    Not to mention this dude gets hitched on Monday after dating this broad 6 mos.?? No wonder he's playing like shit... he's not even focused on football.. the more responsible thing to do would have been to wait until the offseason... He's not focused on football... all the more reason to dump him!! bc obviously he can't do both... and his personal life is apparently affecting his on field life.. IMO

    I think it's irresponsible and when your playing like shit makes it look even worse!

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