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  1. #1
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
    i_bleed_purple is offline Jersey Retired
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    IF Ponder truly isn't our guy..

    Personally, I like the idea of giving Ponder one more year to prove us wrong. He's got some ability, but hasn't showed the ability to improve the way we'd like to see. He's making the same mistakes again and again. For somebody that's supposedly one of the most accurate and smartest people in the league, he sure isn't playing that way. I would still like to see how he looks if we can get good blocking and receivers.

    That leaves us four options really

    1. Draft a QB early... Again
    2. Hope Webb can provide the spark
    3. Sign a UFA.
    4. Trade for a QB

    1. We have too many concerns to blow another pick on another early round QB in a relatively weak QB class. Barkley hasn't looked super hot, and honestly, USC QB's haven't been all that int he past 15 years. Like it or not, we don't suck enough to get Geno Smith from WV, another option could be whatshisname from Texas A&M, but that's a huge reach imo. Draft isn't the answer for us. We need receivers, OL, LB, CB, DL.... wasting a first round pick on another QB is an awful move.

    2. We've given Webb a few chances, and he's looked... well... looked like an athletic kid who sort of can throw, that teams don't prepare for. He's not a starting QB in the league, good for a spark off the bench only. Not really an option. Alternative: McLeod John Baltazar Bethel-Thompson. AN undrafted QB, who's never taken an NFL snap in his career. I know many of you think he's the second coming of Tony Romo or something like that, I just don't see it happening. He's got a good arm, but there's a reason he's never been a second string guy in the NFL. If we go in a season with him as our starter, that's trouble

    3. UFAs. This prospect intrigues me.
    This season there will potentially be:
    Joe Flacco
    Matt Schaub
    Matt Moore
    Peyton Manning

    I fully expect Matt Schaub will be re-signed. I don't like the idea of Matt Moore as our starter, Peyton Manning's contract is structured in a way that he CAN become an UFA, but I highly doubt that based on how he's played. If Flacco does end up not being re-signed, what do you think?

    He's had his struggles behind a suspect OL. He short-hopps passes sometimes but he has a big arm and can make all the throws. He's more decisive than Ponder, both presently, and even when he was a second year guy. He's not as fast, but is deceptively athletic. Joe CAN run if he has to.

    Lastly, we can trade for a QB.

    A couple guys we could potentially pry away:
    Ryan Mallett.... You know, the guy I wanted us to get instead of Ponder. I have no idea what Bellicheck's plan is for him, whether he thinks he's the future replacement for Brady, or just a backup. If the price is right, he could be a guy to look into. Big, big guy, huge arm. Very immobile, but CAN be a decent option. If they'd take a third rounder, that might be worth it.

    Colt McCoy. Got screwed by the Browns.. well... being the browns. He's got some talent, he's a fast guy, can move around in the pocket and take it and run. He doens't have a huge arm, but has shown he can at least produce a little bit under adverse conditions (being a brown). We have better receivers than they do (oh my god, that can't be right), better OL. Worth a shot for a late-mid round pick? It's pretty obvious that Weeden will be their guy going forward.

    TJ Yates. This guy actually is a guy I'd like to bring in. He's got a very good deep ball. not the biggest arm, but his deep accuracy is very good. He puts the ball on target very well, and does well on the shorter passes as well. Scouting reports have him with very good footwork and work ethics. Has been compared to Peyton Manning in just how he obsesses over small details that can help his game. He's now played a few games in the NFL, and has won as well. He shows composure, skill and production. Would be a great prospect if we can get him. One downside is he's a bit of a gunslinger. He'll try and force the ball in somewhere. That can be good, but can also hurt. This is something that's coachable, but it's not always a bad trait.

    Alex Smith. I'm willing to bet when Kaepernick was named starter, Smith called his agent and said "Get me out of here". Smith is not a great player, but has slowly developed into a servicable starter. He's not a guy to lead a franchise to victory after victory, but with a decent supporting cast, he can be a reliable player. We need to address other positions such as WR, OL and D, but if we can get a couple pieces to help, Smith could be a guy that can get us to the playoffs.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    kingpin9995 is offline Starter
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_purple View Post
    Personally, I like the idea of giving Ponder one more year to prove us wrong. He's got some ability, but hasn't showed the ability to improve the way we'd like to see. He's making the same mistakes again and again. For somebody that's supposedly one of the most accurate and smartest people in the league, he sure isn't playing that way. I would still like to see how he looks if we can get good blocking and receivers.

    That leaves us four options really

    1. Draft a QB early... Again
    2. Hope Webb can provide the spark
    3. Sign a UFA.
    4. Trade for a QB

    1. We have too many concerns to blow another pick on another early round QB in a relatively weak QB class. Barkley hasn't looked super hot, and honestly, USC QB's haven't been all that int he past 15 years. Like it or not, we don't suck enough to get Geno Smith from WV, another option could be whatshisname from Texas A&M, but that's a huge reach imo. Draft isn't the answer for us. We need receivers, OL, LB, CB, DL.... wasting a first round pick on another QB is an awful move.

    2. We've given Webb a few chances, and he's looked... well... looked like an athletic kid who sort of can throw, that teams don't prepare for. He's not a starting QB in the league, good for a spark off the bench only. Not really an option. Alternative: McLeod John Baltazar Bethel-Thompson. AN undrafted QB, who's never taken an NFL snap in his career. I know many of you think he's the second coming of Tony Romo or something like that, I just don't see it happening. He's got a good arm, but there's a reason he's never been a second string guy in the NFL. If we go in a season with him as our starter, that's trouble

    3. UFAs. This prospect intrigues me.
    This season there will potentially be:
    Joe Flacco
    Matt Schaub
    Matt Moore
    Peyton Manning

    I fully expect Matt Schaub will be re-signed. I don't like the idea of Matt Moore as our starter, Peyton Manning's contract is structured in a way that he CAN become an UFA, but I highly doubt that based on how he's played. If Flacco does end up not being re-signed, what do you think?

    He's had his struggles behind a suspect OL. He short-hopps passes sometimes but he has a big arm and can make all the throws. He's more decisive than Ponder, both presently, and even when he was a second year guy. He's not as fast, but is deceptively athletic. Joe CAN run if he has to.

    Lastly, we can trade for a QB.

    A couple guys we could potentially pry away:
    Ryan Mallett.... You know, the guy I wanted us to get instead of Ponder. I have no idea what Bellicheck's plan is for him, whether he thinks he's the future replacement for Brady, or just a backup. If the price is right, he could be a guy to look into. Big, big guy, huge arm. Very immobile, but CAN be a decent option. If they'd take a third rounder, that might be worth it.

    Colt McCoy. Got screwed by the Browns.. well... being the browns. He's got some talent, he's a fast guy, can move around in the pocket and take it and run. He doens't have a huge arm, but has shown he can at least produce a little bit under adverse conditions (being a brown). We have better receivers than they do (oh my god, that can't be right), better OL. Worth a shot for a late-mid round pick? It's pretty obvious that Weeden will be their guy going forward.

    TJ Yates. This guy actually is a guy I'd like to bring in. He's got a very good deep ball. not the biggest arm, but his deep accuracy is very good. He puts the ball on target very well, and does well on the shorter passes as well. Scouting reports have him with very good footwork and work ethics. Has been compared to Peyton Manning in just how he obsesses over small details that can help his game. He's now played a few games in the NFL, and has won as well. He shows composure, skill and production. Would be a great prospect if we can get him. One downside is he's a bit of a gunslinger. He'll try and force the ball in somewhere. That can be good, but can also hurt. This is something that's coachable, but it's not always a bad trait.

    Alex Smith. I'm willing to bet when Kaepernick was named starter, Smith called his agent and said "Get me out of here". Smith is not a great player, but has slowly developed into a servicable starter. He's not a guy to lead a franchise to victory after victory, but with a decent supporting cast, he can be a reliable player. We need to address other positions such as WR, OL and D, but if we can get a couple pieces to help, Smith could be a guy that can get us to the playoffs.

    Thoughts?
    After watching Ponder I just don't see that he is a starting qb in the NFL. The scouting report on him is dead on. Not a very strong arm and when crunch time hits he's indecisive and makes errors. I hate his pocket presence and to me that is not learned. You either have that third eye knowing pressure and making small moves in the pocket to buy time. He surely has not shown that ability. He very rarely takes a drop and gets the ball out even when there is no pressure. I don't see him seeing the field very well and when his first option is not there he goes into hyper mode just like T Jack did. While he does not have the best receiving corp, he does have the best running back by far in the NFL. He sees stacked boxes all day just like T Jack did and still cannot find receivers down the field. Another troublesome aspect is that Musgrave rarely lets him throw the ball down between the hash marks. This tells me he does not trust the velocity Ponder has on his ball and it shows when he does throw deeper down the middle. The ball sails on him showing that his arm just does not have the power to laser the ball to small windows. I remember a few years ago when T Jack played on Monday night and Steve Young at halftime commented how he would like to toss a jersey on and play the second half the way the Bears were playing defense against us. He said that if T J can't be successful against a team that is daring you to throw and stacking he box with 9 guys, then you best find someone that can. Ponder seems that guy to me. He did ok early on BEFORE teams got a real good look at what he likes to do. They took a lot of the short stuff away from him and you see the result week after week now since then. When teams do that it tells you that they don't believe he's capable to consistently beat you down the field. There is no real remedy for that. It's what it is, and for the Vikings I fear they made a very bad reach for Ponder. The book on him was exactly what they said coming out of college. You reach and lose and there goes another few years of trying to get better. That I believe is where the Vikings are with him, BUT, Speilman will never admit to it until he gives him at least one more full season to fail.

  3. #3
    drakkar is offline Rookie
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    could look at Justin Hunter/Robert Woods in the first, give Ponder better weapons.Then if Tyler Bray or Tyler Wilson slip into the 2nd take one of them. They wont have pressure of having to start right away and if Ponder fails you can start who you drafted and move on.

  4. #4
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingpin9995 View Post
    After watching Ponder I just don't see that he is a starting qb in the NFL. The scouting report on him is dead on. Not a very strong arm and when crunch time hits he's indecisive and makes errors. I hate his pocket presence and to me that is not learned. You either have that third eye knowing pressure and making small moves in the pocket to buy time. He surely has not shown that ability. He very rarely takes a drop and gets the ball out even when there is no pressure. I don't see him seeing the field very well and when his first option is not there he goes into hyper mode just like T Jack did. While he does not have the best receiving corp, he does have the best running back by far in the NFL. He sees stacked boxes all day just like T Jack did and still cannot find receivers down the field. Another troublesome aspect is that Musgrave rarely lets him throw the ball down between the hash marks. This tells me he does not trust the velocity Ponder has on his ball and it shows when he does throw deeper down the middle. The ball sails on him showing that his arm just does not have the power to laser the ball to small windows. I remember a few years ago when T Jack played on Monday night and Steve Young at halftime commented how he would like to toss a jersey on and play the second half the way the Bears were playing defense against us. He said that if T J can't be successful against a team that is daring you to throw and stacking he box with 9 guys, then you best find someone that can. Ponder seems that guy to me. He did ok early on BEFORE teams got a real good look at what he likes to do. They took a lot of the short stuff away from him and you see the result week after week now since then. When teams do that it tells you that they don't believe he's capable to consistently beat you down the field. There is no real remedy for that. It's what it is, and for the Vikings I fear they made a very bad reach for Ponder. The book on him was exactly what they said coming out of college. You reach and lose and there goes another few years of trying to get better. That I believe is where the Vikings are with him, BUT, Speilman will never admit to it until he gives him at least one more full season to fail.
    I agree that the reports on him out of college were pretty well on. But you are also only looking at the negatives and ignoring any positives. That is called confirmation bias. Here is the entire scouting report for you: ProFootballWeekly.com - Vikings first-round scouting report: QB Christian Ponder, Florida State

    Positives: Extremely tough-minded and intelligent with terrific intangibles. Strong drive and determination. Will battle through injuries and play through pain. Sells play-action hard. Gets rid of the ball quickly with good timing. Moves well outside the pocket and can extend plays with his feet. Has a gamer mentality with the moxie and grit to command a huddle and win respect in the locker room. Shrugs off adversity, responds well in pressure situations and performed well at the Senior Bowl. Has a confident, composed on-field temperament and can rally a team from behind. Very natural leader.

    Negatives: Throwing elbow must be evaluated carefully - arm strength was limited prior to the injury, and accuracy wanes down the field. Average decision maker - takes unnecessary risks trying to make plays and lacks the velocity to squeeze the ball into coverage. Makes some bad reads and head-scratching decisions. Puts a lot of arc on the ball and often underthrows deep receivers - cannot cut it loose through the wind. Struggles gauging his own arm and touch. Regressed following the promotion of Jimbo Fisher to head coach (and is best with a technical position coach). Could not finish the season the last two years because of durability issues.

    Summary: An athletic, dink-and-dunk, West Coast passer who has been snake-bitten by injuries, Ponder has everything teams could want intangibly in a quarterback - intelligence, toughness, competitiveness and leadership qualities. However, his physical limitations will always leave teams wanting more and invite injury. Has the poise and confidence desired in a backup with potential to eventually become a good, not great, starter.
    I think you are right - that is very close on, in its entirety.

    The bottom line for me there is he has potential to be a good but not great starter. I agree with that. I also realize that QBs are at a premium, and there are a lot of teams out there who would love to have a good but not great starter. If someone better comes along, I have no problem with picking them up and installing them in front of Ponder. If nobody better is available (which is more likely the case, and NO, Webb is not someone better) I think we are heading in the right direction to succeed.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  5. #5
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_purple View Post
    1. Draft a QB early... Again
    2. Hope Webb can provide the spark
    3. Sign a UFA.
    4. Trade for a QB
    1. Not with this draft.
    2. I honestly don't think so. He is a very good short term solution, but if a team prepares for him he is worse than anything we have now.
    3. I don't see anyone who will be available who would be better.
    4. This is the only way I think we could upgrade at the position. Smith is obviously going to be the biggest target, but I like your other options as well.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  6. #6
    Reignman is offline Asst. Coach
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    Positives: Extremely tough-minded and intelligent with terrific intangibles. Strong drive and determination. Will battle through injuries and play through pain. Sells play-action hard. Gets rid of the ball quickly with good timing. Moves well outside the pocket and can extend plays with his feet. Has a gamer mentality with the moxie and grit to command a huddle and win respect in the locker room. Shrugs off adversity, responds well in pressure situations and performed well at the Senior Bowl. Has a confident, composed on-field temperament and can rally a team from behind. Very natural leader.
    I think the scouting report missed the mark on these points, or at least he seems to be struggling with these issues in the pros so far.

    Negatives: Throwing elbow must be evaluated carefully - arm strength was limited prior to the injury, and accuracy wanes down the field. Average decision maker - takes unnecessary risks trying to make plays and lacks the velocity to squeeze the ball into coverage. Makes some bad reads and head-scratching decisions. Puts a lot of arc on the ball and often underthrows deep receivers - cannot cut it loose through the wind. Struggles gauging his own arm and touch. Regressed following the promotion of Jimbo Fisher to head coach (and is best with a technical position coach). Could not finish the season the last two years because of durability issues.
    All the negatives seem dead on and almost make me think it was written Monday morning.

    I'm cutting him some slack because our OL is suspect, most of our receivers flat out suck, and he's being coached by a bunch of retards that are probably hurting him more than helping. Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing more of MBT if we decide to go in another direction. He looked pretty good in preseason and has a stronger arm than Ponder.

  7. #7
    smegmavike is offline Coordinator
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    Despite a suspect OL, craptacular receiving corps, and at times, bizzare play calling, Ponder has performed statisticly similar to second year QB's who have gone on to become franchise QB's.
    But in this case the statistics may be a bit misleading since so many of his passes are short.
    The Vikings will stick with him as long as he is healthy, and I'm actually interested to see what he can do next year with a better team around him.
    Right now he looks like a QB struggling to become a game manager. That may change with a better team around him.
    But it's difficult to have the patience required to watch Christian Flounder.

  8. #8
    keystonevike is offline Starter
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    If Ponder isn't our guy, I would look back at the draft and see missed opportunities. Andy Dalton and Colin Kaepernick (I think I spelled it right) were on the board when we took Ponder at 12, which I think some would agree was a reach. Look what those 2 guys have done. But then again, maybe our OC is playing it safe and not letting Ponder have full use of the playbook. Unless his playbook is written on a post-it note. Maybe coaching staff is holding him back, so as not to let him make mistakes now that we are in the playoff picture, which maybe they didn't expect.

  9. #9
    C Mac D's Avatar
    C Mac D is offline Posting to P'own
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    We're all ignoring the root of the issue: Rick Spielman.

    Once we get rid of him, we can start putting together a winning team. Spielman simply lacks a basic understanding of the game and constantly misses in the draft - just look at the Vikes and Dolphins drafts under his reign. (drafting Harvin and Peterson were no-brainers... but you can point to those as positives if you'd like)
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  10. #10
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keystonevike View Post
    If Ponder isn't our guy, I would look back at the draft and see missed opportunities. Andy Dalton and Colin Kaepernick (I think I spelled it right) were on the board when we took Ponder at 12, which I think some would agree was a reach. Look what those 2 guys have done. But then again, maybe our OC is playing it safe and not letting Ponder have full use of the playbook. Unless his playbook is written on a post-it note. Maybe coaching staff is holding him back, so as not to let him make mistakes now that we are in the playoff picture, which maybe they didn't expect.
    Although, to be fair, Dalton has the advantage of having possibly one of the best receivers in the game, with a serviceable OL and wr depth. And a coach who calls plays to the match teams talent. I'm not sure any rookie QB would succeed their rookie year here. We were that bad last season.

    I'm still not a fan of Kaepernick. He just looks like a punk. I can't take him seriously, He might be more than talented, but I just don't get that 'wow' factor from him. He doesn't pass the eyeball test for what I'd want as a leader of a team. I like his physical abilities, but we'll see how he pans out.

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