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  1. #1
    gagarr's Avatar
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    How does holding out really help the player?

    How does it help the player not to practice with the team?

    If a player doesn't practice:
    * He gets fined
    * He doesn't get in true football shape
    * He risks chance of being replaced by the guy getting the reps.
    * He doesn't get better at his position
    * He increases his risk of injury
    * He will almost always cave before the first game, as none will sit out the whole season.
    * He risks a chance of getting traded to the Raiders.
    * He creates some resentment with players, coaches, FO, and fans
    * He becomes a distraction
    * He just looks like an "ass"

    The team only loses, if they are a potential playoff team and losing a good player would seriously effect it. But in football few players are really that indispensible unless the backup is HORRIBLE. i.e. if Cook has to replace a Vikings' OT. Unlike a drop off from Edwards to Robison.

    What's really hurting players this year is the uncertain future of the CBA and possible lockout/strike. Giving a player BIG signing bonus and then having them sit out games/whole year only hurts the team.
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  2. #2
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:How does holding out really help the player?

    Excellent idea for a thread my friend. Kindof dovetails into this article I was just reading.....

    Anyway, here is my analysis (actually, every player’s FA year is listed – via Walterfootball.com) (players that need to be resigned are bolded… players I feel we NEED to resign are bolded in purple):
    Upcomming Contracts – the new CBA

    Although I don't agree with all of his "Purple" bolding, I would venture to say that if they held out the team wouldn't do very well.

    In most cases, yes, the owners have the leverage, but we might be seeing a new way of doing this, atleast from the players perspective that might change some of it.

    a. They don't get injured. Can't get hurt if you don't play.
    b. If several players stuck together (i.e. whats going on in San Diego this year) the team might just have to buckle.
    c. If a player is disruptive enough (i.e. Haynesworth) the team might have to buckle as well.

    We saw that most recently with a couple of Bronco players now didn't we.
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  3. #3
    gagarr's Avatar
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    Re:How does holding out really help the player?

    Marrdro wrote:
    Excellent idea for a thread my friend. Kindof dovetails into this article I was just reading.....

    Anyway, here is my analysis (actually, every player’s FA year is listed – via Walterfootball.com) (players that need to be resigned are bolded… players I feel we NEED to resign are bolded in purple):
    Upcomming Contracts – the new CBA

    Although I don't agree with all of his "Purple" bolding, I would venture to say that if they held out the team wouldn't do very well.

    In most cases, yes, the owners have the leverage, but we might be seeing a new way of doing this, atleast from the players perspective that might change some of it.

    a. They don't get injured. Can't get hurt if you don't play.
    b. If several players stuck together (i.e. whats going on in San Diego this year) the team might just have to buckle.
    c. If a player is disruptive enough (i.e. Haynesworth) the team might have to buckle as well.

    We saw that most recently with a couple of Bronco players now didn't we.
    When I mention injury I'm talking players that miss TC and maybe a few games run a greater chance of injury, when they do come back.

    Several players sticking together is even more dumb as they sign individual contracts. I would say "here's your deal" if the other guy signs first this deal is off the table and it won't get better, as we've committed our premium $$$ to this deal. First to sign wins.

    Who won in the Cutler situation? The Broncos, getting great draft picks.

    Is the other one Brandon Marshall? His stats are going to dive with the run first Dolphins. Thus, his value will also drop.
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  4. #4
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:How does holding out really help the player?

    gagarr wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Excellent idea for a thread my friend. Kindof dovetails into this article I was just reading.....

    Anyway, here is my analysis (actually, every player’s FA year is listed – via Walterfootball.com) (players that need to be resigned are bolded… players I feel we NEED to resign are bolded in purple):
    Upcomming Contracts – the new CBA

    Although I don't agree with all of his "Purple" bolding, I would venture to say that if they held out the team wouldn't do very well.

    In most cases, yes, the owners have the leverage, but we might be seeing a new way of doing this, atleast from the players perspective that might change some of it.

    a. They don't get injured. Can't get hurt if you don't play.
    b. If several players stuck together (i.e. whats going on in San Diego this year) the team might just have to buckle.
    c. If a player is disruptive enough (i.e. Haynesworth) the team might have to buckle as well.

    We saw that most recently with a couple of Bronco players now didn't we.
    When I mention injury I'm talking players that miss TC and maybe a few games run a greater chance of injury, when they do come back.
    I gotcha, I was just putting another spin on it.

    Several players sticking together is even more dumb as they sign individual contracts. I would say "here's your deal" if the other guy signs first this deal is off the table and it won't get better, as we've committed our premium $$$ to this deal. First to sign wins.
    I see your point, but I find it interesting that the Chargers players seem to be doing this as a unit.

    Who won in the Cutler situation? The Broncos, getting great draft picks.
    I don't think the Bronco's won. They lost a franchise QB and finished with a worse record than they would have with Cutler under center.

    In fact, I wouldn't take any of thier QB's right now over Cutler.

    Is the other one Brandon Marshall? His stats are going to dive with the run first Dolphins. Thus, his value will also drop.
    Yes, and I don't think his stats are going to drop that much.

    They are a run first, run second team, but I think Henne is ready to take the next step. All he needs is a WR to throw to. In Marshall, he has that and in the end, both he and Cutler didn't want to play with the Bronco's anymore and got moved, even though it was ugly.

    Seems they won to me.

    Again, my point in all of this is that because the times (CBA) have changed, we might see new ways that players attack this situation, especially if a team has a bunch of players all due contracts and they have either the same agent, or atleast a couple of agents who are willing to work together.

    I think it would/will get real ugly, real fast, if say 4 or 5 of the guys in the article I listed decided to join forces and hold out together.
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  5. #5
    gagarr's Avatar
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    Re:How does holding out really help the player?

    Marrdro wrote:
    gagarr wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Excellent idea for a thread my friend. Kindof dovetails into this article I was just reading.....

    Anyway, here is my analysis (actually, every player’s FA year is listed – via Walterfootball.com) (players that need to be resigned are bolded… players I feel we NEED to resign are bolded in purple):
    Upcomming Contracts – the new CBA

    Although I don't agree with all of his "Purple" bolding, I would venture to say that if they held out the team wouldn't do very well.

    In most cases, yes, the owners have the leverage, but we might be seeing a new way of doing this, atleast from the players perspective that might change some of it.

    a. They don't get injured. Can't get hurt if you don't play.
    b. If several players stuck together (i.e. whats going on in San Diego this year) the team might just have to buckle.
    c. If a player is disruptive enough (i.e. Haynesworth) the team might have to buckle as well.

    We saw that most recently with a couple of Bronco players now didn't we.
    When I mention injury I'm talking players that miss TC and maybe a few games run a greater chance of injury, when they do come back.
    I gotcha, I was just putting another spin on it.

    Several players sticking together is even more dumb as they sign individual contracts. I would say "here's your deal" if the other guy signs first this deal is off the table and it won't get better, as we've committed our premium $$$ to this deal. First to sign wins.
    I see your point, but I find it interesting that the Chargers players seem to be doing this as a unit.

    Who won in the Cutler situation? The Broncos, getting great draft picks.
    I don't think the Bronco's won. They lost a franchise QB and finished with a worse record than they would have with Cutler under center.

    In fact, I wouldn't take any of thier QB's right now over Cutler.

    Is the other one Brandon Marshall? His stats are going to dive with the run first Dolphins. Thus, his value will also drop.
    Yes, and I don't think his stats are going to drop that much.

    They are a run first, run second team, but I think Henne is ready to take the next step. All he needs is a WR to throw to. In Marshall, he has that and in the end, both he and Cutler didn't want to play with the Bronco's anymore and got moved, even though it was ugly.

    Seems they won to me.

    Again, my point in all of this is that because the times (CBA) have changed, we might see new ways that players attack this situation, especially if a team has a bunch of players all due contracts and they have either the same agent, or atleast a couple of agents who are willing to work together.

    I think it would/will get real ugly, real fast, if say 4 or 5 of the guys in the article I listed decided to join forces and hold out together.
    I disagree on the Cutler situation, they had the same record 8-8 even with a total coaching change and losing a "franchise" QB. I think the draft picks are valuable, if not used by idiots. That also have a servicable QB, another teams reject, and a media star that hasn't done anything.

    If Marshall makes 70 receptions this year I'll be shocked, the the Dolphins are a RUN RUN WILDCAT team and Henne??? is a 80ish passer at best, regardless of what the Dolphins owner says.

    What you are discribing is mini-unions, but all can't get their way. If I was part of that group and I got a good deal on the table, but another player wants more, even though I don't think he deserves it. But I can't sign my deal till he gets his, I'd be PISSED. Especially if my deal has a expiration date, where part of mine might end up going to him to make him happy.

    I really hope the CBA is ironed out before 2011 season, but I'm not optomistic. Too may egos and bad financial times.
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  6. #6
    Traveling_Vike is offline Coordinator
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    Re:How does holding out really help the player?

    So... a holdout hurts the player, for reasons already listed. He can only hope that the eventual payoff will make it worthwhile if the team caves.

    A holdout hurts the team, as they don't have their veteran starters on the field in practices. The backups get more reps, but it's still better if the starters get them instead.

    Who does a holdout benefit?

    The agent.

    Most players would not choose to hold out on their own. It's on the advice of their agents that they generally do so. If the team caves, the agent also gets the benefit of a big payoff. If not, he loses NOTHING. No risk, high potential reward.

    I have to wonder if the league has ever felt the need to investigate the power that agents have. These guys usually represent many players from many different teams. Think how much influence they could have if someone decided to play this kind of game:

    "OK, I'm gonna tell all my Vikings guys to hold out, and all of the rest of my NFC North guys to get in there and practice, and we can deal later. That way, only the Vikings will suffer and someone else will probably win the division."

    I know, it isn't that powerful, but it is still considerable indirect influence.

    It's also bad when they represent several guys on the same team. The agent wants a big payoff for all of his guys, and doesn't give a damn about the rest of the players on that team. He doesn't care if the Front Office can't afford to pay everyone what they want, all long as his guys, and HE, get the big money.

    I hate agents.

    But yeah, if I were a pro athlete, I'd probably have one too. I'm just not sure I'd take everything he had to say as gospel.

    My Meeple is purple. What color is yours?

  7. #7
    gagarr's Avatar
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    Re:How does holding out really help the player?

    Traveling_Vike wrote:
    So... a holdout hurts the player, for reasons already listed. He can only hope that the eventual payoff will make it worthwhile if the team caves.

    A holdout hurts the team, as they don't have their veteran starters on the field in practices. The backups get more reps, but it's still better if the starters get them instead.

    Who does a holdout benefit?

    The agent.

    Most players would not choose to hold out on their own. It's on the advice of their agents that they generally do so. If the team caves, the agent also gets the benefit of a big payoff. If not, he loses NOTHING. No risk, high potential reward.

    I have to wonder if the league has ever felt the need to investigate the power that agents have. These guys usually represent many players from many different teams. Think how much influence they could have if someone decided to play this kind of game:

    "OK, I'm gonna tell all my Vikings guys to hold out, and all of the rest of my NFC North guys to get in there and practice, and we can deal later. That way, only the Vikings will suffer and someone else will probably win the division."

    I know, it isn't that powerful, but it is still considerable indirect influence.

    It's also bad when they represent several guys on the same team. The agent wants a big payoff for all of his guys, and doesn't give a damn about the rest of the players on that team. He doesn't care if the Front Office can't afford to pay everyone what they want, all long as his guys, and HE, get the big money.

    I hate agents.

    But yeah, if I were a pro athlete, I'd probably have one too. I'm just not sure I'd take everything he had to say as gospel.
    You make a good point about the agents getting their cut and they don't have a down side.

    But I don't think that players are led around as easily as that. If a player thinks that his agent has his interest ahead of theirs, they will most likely switch agents.

    Agents also need to have a good relationship with teams. I think who the players agent is could affect their draft and trade value. If a team knows a agent likes to do blackmailish things, the teams will most likely avoid getting that agents players regardless of the talent. As what good is having a talented player that holds out or causes a distraction. The word will get out and players will abandon that agent.
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  8. #8
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re:How does holding out really help the player?

    gagarr wrote:
    Traveling_Vike wrote:
    So... a holdout hurts the player, for reasons already listed. He can only hope that the eventual payoff will make it worthwhile if the team caves.

    A holdout hurts the team, as they don't have their veteran starters on the field in practices. The backups get more reps, but it's still better if the starters get them instead.

    Who does a holdout benefit?

    The agent.

    Most players would not choose to hold out on their own. It's on the advice of their agents that they generally do so. If the team caves, the agent also gets the benefit of a big payoff. If not, he loses NOTHING. No risk, high potential reward.

    I have to wonder if the league has ever felt the need to investigate the power that agents have. These guys usually represent many players from many different teams. Think how much influence they could have if someone decided to play this kind of game:

    "OK, I'm gonna tell all my Vikings guys to hold out, and all of the rest of my NFC North guys to get in there and practice, and we can deal later. That way, only the Vikings will suffer and someone else will probably win the division."

    I know, it isn't that powerful, but it is still considerable indirect influence.

    It's also bad when they represent several guys on the same team. The agent wants a big payoff for all of his guys, and doesn't give a damn about the rest of the players on that team. He doesn't care if the Front Office can't afford to pay everyone what they want, all long as his guys, and HE, get the big money.

    I hate agents.

    But yeah, if I were a pro athlete, I'd probably have one too. I'm just not sure I'd take everything he had to say as gospel.
    You make a good point about the agents getting their cut and they don't have a down side.

    But I don't think that players are led around as easily as that. If a player thinks that his agent has his interest ahead of theirs, they will most likely switch agents.
    You realize of course a good portion of these kids come from poor families right? They go from barely getting by, to getting a free ride through college because they had skill to all of a sudden making millions. I'm fairly certain most agents are smart enough to lead alot of these young guys. Probably why you notice alot of older guys switching agents.

    Thats not to say all players are like that. I recall a while back, Rosenhaus was trying to get Chad Johnson at the time to hold out, he flat out said no. But alot of these poor kids when told they could be making more, will believe the agent and do waht he says.

  9. #9
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re:How does holding out really help the player?

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    gagarr wrote:
    Traveling_Vike wrote:
    So... a holdout hurts the player, for reasons already listed. He can only hope that the eventual payoff will make it worthwhile if the team caves.

    A holdout hurts the team, as they don't have their veteran starters on the field in practices. The backups get more reps, but it's still better if the starters get them instead.

    Who does a holdout benefit?

    The agent.

    Most players would not choose to hold out on their own. It's on the advice of their agents that they generally do so. If the team caves, the agent also gets the benefit of a big payoff. If not, he loses NOTHING. No risk, high potential reward.

    I have to wonder if the league has ever felt the need to investigate the power that agents have. These guys usually represent many players from many different teams. Think how much influence they could have if someone decided to play this kind of game:

    "OK, I'm gonna tell all my Vikings guys to hold out, and all of the rest of my NFC North guys to get in there and practice, and we can deal later. That way, only the Vikings will suffer and someone else will probably win the division."

    I know, it isn't that powerful, but it is still considerable indirect influence.

    It's also bad when they represent several guys on the same team. The agent wants a big payoff for all of his guys, and doesn't give a damn about the rest of the players on that team. He doesn't care if the Front Office can't afford to pay everyone what they want, all long as his guys, and HE, get the big money.

    I hate agents.

    But yeah, if I were a pro athlete, I'd probably have one too. I'm just not sure I'd take everything he had to say as gospel.
    You make a good point about the agents getting their cut and they don't have a down side.

    But I don't think that players are led around as easily as that. If a player thinks that his agent has his interest ahead of theirs, they will most likely switch agents.
    You realize of course a good portion of these kids come from poor families right? They go from barely getting by, to getting a free ride through college because they had skill to all of a sudden making millions. I'm fairly certain most agents are smart enough to lead alot of these young guys. Probably why you notice alot of older guys switching agents.

    Thats not to say all players are like that. I recall a while back, Rosenhaus was trying to get Chad Johnson at the time to hold out, he flat out said no. But alot of these poor kids when told they could be making more, will believe the agent and do waht he says.
    Agreed, the agent is the primary beneficiary in a hold out.

    The team doesn't win - obviously - for reasons you guys already covered.

    What was skipped is the fan backlash that can hit a player for holding out.

    Jovan Walker felt it in Green Bay...and was moved to Denver where he did zip. He's now in Oakland sucking even worse. Had he simply played out his deal he might have done far better. But fans turned against him HARD - and Drew Rosenhaus, his agent, is hated to this day.

    How about Ray Edwards? Many here consider his refusal to sign his tender to be a babyish pouty fit...I'm one of them. What did he accomplish? Did the team suddenly say, "Damn, maybe we should pay him more?" Nope. They said, "Hey, Robison looks good, doesn't he?"

    I won't even talk about rookie holdouts as I think their contracts are insane already. They should all get a flat rate for 3 years with an opt-out after that.

    But, the truth is that holding out seldom benefits the players as much as they think it does. They almost NEVER come out with a positive PR spin...usually they wind up villified.

    And the truth is, they really DON'T "Deserve" the kazillion dollar pay day they all demand. What do they REALLY do? They play a GAME!!! I don't care how good you are at that "game", you're still no where near as important to society as a hundred different careers I could name. And your job isn't as dangerous as another half dozen I can think of.

    So, in the end, the only loser is the fans. The players are all interchangeable. Truth is, even if Ray Edwards held out all year, we wouldn't REALLY miss him much. Even if Jared Allen left in a fit, we'd miss him, but the OVER ALL outlook wouldn't drastically alter...and very few players have that level of impact. Favre, Manning, Brady...they do...but most don't.

    So, we're left with the only winner being the Agent...because he gets a percentage of any contract signed with him as the originating agent...which is why when players switch agents they look for a new deal immediately. Agents don't get paid for the other guys contract.

    Caine

  10. #10
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    Re:How does holding out really help the player?

    It hurts the players relationship with a team. The way that the league sees it. It ruins the chemistry. Hurts them in the process.
    NFL 2013 is Here!

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