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  1. #11
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    Re: First Round QBs Driving Playoff Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086940
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1086938
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086935
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1086929
    Quote Originally Posted by marrdro
    Look, I'm not against taking a guy. I'm just saying that they don't work out as well as some think. The staff better make sure they get the right guy and he fits the scheme and shouldn't just take a guy cause he is there to appease some fans.
    We've been over this many many times. First round doesn't guarantee a good player, but it gives you a significantly better shot at getting a good player than any other round. Any.
    It doesn't matter were they are drafted. First rounders only make the fans a little more forgiving as the kid struggles.

    It absolutely does matter. To think otherwise is asinine.
    Why ya gotta go with the asinine comment?

    You see how many first rounders are sitting at home?
    Do you see how many late round players are sitting at home? A hell of alot more.

    What matters is how well the staff scouts for talent. If a kid can be had in a later round that will work, you draft him long before you draft a kid that is highly touted and then doesn't work out.
    That's like saying if you're good enough to guess the lottery numbers you can get rich. Duh. Problem is, you seem to think finding the next Tom Brady is something you can do with a little effort. When in fact, that's not how it works.
    Again, whats important is the scouting process, not were they are taken.
    No, what's important is the quality of player. However, that means the best players get picked early. So you're right, in the sense that picking the same guy in the first round instead of the second won't make him a better player. But we need to get a guy early.

  2. #12
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    Re: First Round QBs Driving Playoff Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1086942
    That's like saying if you're good enough to guess the lottery numbers you can get rich. Duh. Problem is, you seem to think finding the next Tom Brady is something you can do with a little effort. When in fact, that's not how it works.
    No, thats your interpretation of what I'm saying. As usual, your missing my point.

    Do you see how many late round players are sitting at home? A hell of alot more.
    A hell of alot more? Did you see the numbers? Even if you go low on the guys that have bounced around, its about 10 teams are sitting at home with QB starting that are out of the first round.

    All other teams have a 1rst rounder on thier team or have had one at some point.

    No, what's important is the quality of player. However, that means the best players get picked early. So you're right, in the sense that picking the same guy in the first round instead of the second won't make him a better player. But we need to get a guy early.
    So your good with the 7th best QB this year.......

    By the way, thats my point in case you missed it (again). :P
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  3. #13
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    Re: First Round QBs Driving Playoff Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086950
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1086942
    That's like saying if you're good enough to guess the lottery numbers you can get rich. Duh. Problem is, you seem to think finding the next Tom Brady is something you can do with a little effort. When in fact, that's not how it works.
    No, thats your interpretation of what I'm saying. As usual, your missing my point.
    Perhaps saying what you mean rather than not meaning what you say might be a way to go. Seems alot of people are missing your points.
    Do you see how many late round players are sitting at home? A hell of alot more.
    A hell of alot more? Did you see the numbers? Even if you go low on the guys that have bounced around, its about 10 teams are sitting at home with QB starting that are out of the first round.
    Hmm... So with Favre, it's a team effort, but for other teams, the first round QB's are why they're staying home? Or did I miss you're point? Sorry, I seem to do that more often lately. Most of the first round guys sitting at home, I would love to have as a Viking. Most of the late round crap we draft I would love to see leave the Vikings.

    No, what's important is the quality of player. However, that means the best players get picked early. So you're right, in the sense that picking the same guy in the first round instead of the second won't make him a better player. But we need to get a guy early.
    So your good with the 7th best QB this year.......
    Really? Now who's missing the point. Reaching for a guy in the first won't make him good. As I said, and I continue to say, we need to draft one of the top QB's. top 4-5 at most. After that it's just luck if we get a good guy. You know how you say that outside of the top 10, if a guy slips, it's for a reason? Well, if a guy isn't drafted in the first round, i'ts for a reason. More often than not, they're no good.

    Do you not find it odd, that we've ONLY ever drafted 2 first round QB's, and they have given us some of our best play from the QB position. Tark was second round. More often than not, teams that win superbowls and are elite forces in the league have quality first-round QB's. Pats are the exception.

    Steelers, 2 superbowls with a first round guy
    Colts, Manning makes them a contender any given year
    49ers, won all the superbowls with Montana and Young. Montana was 3rd round, young was first.
    Cowboys, Aikman was first round.

    Look at the playoffs this year. SOme of the best teams, teams with a legitimate shot of winning it all, Falcons, Colts, Jets, Falcons, Bears, Saints. All have first round players. Brees was second round, but #32 overall, which would make him a first round guy in this years format.

    You seem content with marginal players, I want a change. Kinda odd, you would think an older guy who has been around to witness the Vikings consistently fall short for the past 40 years would maybe want a bit of change.

  4. #14
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    Re: First Round QBs Driving Playoff Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086933
    One of the problems the Vikings have, however, is there might be six or more teams ahead of them who are looking for the same player to lead them back from the dumper. There's Carolina at No. 1, Buffalo at No. 3, Arizona at No. 5, possibly San Francisco at No. 7, possibly Tennessee at No. 8 and Washington at No. 10.
    Vikings have to get in line to draft franchise QB


    1. Carolina Panthers Andrew Luck, Q.B. -1 Franchise QB
    2. Denver Broncos - Tebow? Lets say they stay with him.
    3. Buffalo Bills - Cam Newton, QB -2 Franchise QB's
    4. Cincinnati Bengals - Palmer
    5. Arizona Cardinals - Skelton/DA? Gabbert -3 Franchise QB's
    6. Cleveland Browns - McCoy (Lots of INTs at the end but against good D's. Lets say they stay with him.
    7. San Francisco 49ers - Smith? Mallet - 4 Franchise QB's
    8. Tennessee Titans Shitcanned Young. Loucke -5 Franchise QB's
    9. Dallas Cowboys Romo
    10. Washington Redskins Dnabb? They only signed him so they can get something for him instead of letting him walk. Louck - 6th Best QB
    11. Houston Texans Schaub
    12. Minnesota Vikings Web Leaves us with the 7th best QB.

    Key note, rotate the QB's in order/team anyway you like. My point still stands that if we get a kid at 12, he will be the 7th best QB.

    When was the last time 7 first round QB's panned out in a draft.
    If this scenario pans out, it's definitely not Defcon 4 for the Vikes. Say this becomes reality, I would take one of these 4 guys in Rd 1: AJ Green, WR, Georgia; Von Miller, OLB, Texas A&M; Prince Amukamara, CB, Nebraska; Julio Jones, WR, Alabama. Then, I would go with a QB in Rd 2 or 3...Ricky Stanzi, Christian Ponder, Colin Kaepernick, Pat Devlin come to mind.

    Another likely scenario looks to me like we are going to need to make a choice between Gabbert and Locker, or waiting. In that scenario, I think we need to take Gabbert.

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  5. #15
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    Re: First Round QBs Driving Playoff Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1086954
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086950
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1086942
    That's like saying if you're good enough to guess the lottery numbers you can get rich. Duh. Problem is, you seem to think finding the next Tom Brady is something you can do with a little effort. When in fact, that's not how it works.
    No, thats your interpretation of what I'm saying. As usual, your missing my point.
    Perhaps saying what you mean rather than not meaning what you say might be a way to go. Seems alot of people are missing your points.
    Do you see how many late round players are sitting at home? A hell of alot more.
    A hell of alot more? Did you see the numbers? Even if you go low on the guys that have bounced around, its about 10 teams are sitting at home with QB starting that are out of the first round.
    Hmm... So with Favre, it's a team effort, but for other teams, the first round QB's are why they're staying home? Or did I miss you're point? Sorry, I seem to do that more often lately. Most of the first round guys sitting at home, I would love to have as a Viking. Most of the late round crap we draft I would love to see leave the Vikings.

    No, what's important is the quality of player. However, that means the best players get picked early. So you're right, in the sense that picking the same guy in the first round instead of the second won't make him a better player. But we need to get a guy early.
    So your good with the 7th best QB this year.......
    Really? Now who's missing the point. Reaching for a guy in the first won't make him good. As I said, and I continue to say, we need to draft one of the top QB's. top 4-5 at most. After that it's just luck if we get a good guy. You know how you say that outside of the top 10, if a guy slips, it's for a reason? Well, if a guy isn't drafted in the first round, i'ts for a reason. More often than not, they're no good.

    Do you not find it odd, that we've ONLY ever drafted 2 first round QB's, and they have given us some of our best play from the QB position. Tark was second round. More often than not, teams that win superbowls and are elite forces in the league have quality first-round QB's. Pats are the exception.

    Steelers, 2 superbowls with a first round guy
    Colts, Manning makes them a contender any given year
    49ers, won all the superbowls with Montana and Young. Montana was 3rd round, young was first.
    Cowboys, Aikman was first round.

    Look at the playoffs this year. SOme of the best teams, teams with a legitimate shot of winning it all, Falcons, Colts, Jets, Falcons, Bears, Saints. All have first round players. Brees was second round, but #32 overall, which would make him a first round guy in this years format.

    You seem content with marginal players, I want a change. Kinda odd, you would think an older guy who has been around to witness the Vikings consistently fall short for the past 40 years would maybe want a bit of change.
    Your whole discussion is based on the fact that you somehow believe that I don't want to take a QB in the first round. Show me one place were I've said that.

    I want them to probaly worse than you do, however, it still gets back to scouting. If you are drafting someplace out of the top 5 or so, your not gonna get a "Franchise QB". Just doesn't happen as much as you believe. Again, look at all the QB's I listed that are sitting home that were taken in the first round over the last 10 years I provided a few posts back. Alot of them were taken in the top 10.

    Again, I am not saying we shouldn't take a guy in the first round ever, including this year. What I'm saying is that picking at 12 this year we will probably get the 7th best QB.

    My guess, you could probably get the 2nd or 3rd best OT, 2nd or 3rd best S, ect ect ect. and look to take a guy in the second. Less risk, less cost, and you gaurantee you fix a position that is broken.
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  6. #16
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    Re: First Round QBs Driving Playoff Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by "MaxVike" #1086964
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086933
    One of the problems the Vikings have, however, is there might be six or more teams ahead of them who are looking for the same player to lead them back from the dumper. There's Carolina at No. 1, Buffalo at No. 3, Arizona at No. 5, possibly San Francisco at No. 7, possibly Tennessee at No. 8 and Washington at No. 10.
    Vikings have to get in line to draft franchise QB


    1. Carolina Panthers Andrew Luck, Q.B. -1 Franchise QB
    2. Denver Broncos - Tebow? Lets say they stay with him.
    3. Buffalo Bills - Cam Newton, QB -2 Franchise QB's
    4. Cincinnati Bengals - Palmer
    5. Arizona Cardinals - Skelton/DA? Gabbert -3 Franchise QB's
    6. Cleveland Browns - McCoy (Lots of INTs at the end but against good D's. Lets say they stay with him.
    7. San Francisco 49ers - Smith? Mallet - 4 Franchise QB's
    8. Tennessee Titans Shitcanned Young. Loucke -5 Franchise QB's
    9. Dallas Cowboys Romo
    10. Washington Redskins Dnabb? They only signed him so they can get something for him instead of letting him walk. Louck - 6th Best QB
    11. Houston Texans Schaub
    12. Minnesota Vikings Web Leaves us with the 7th best QB.

    Key note, rotate the QB's in order/team anyway you like. My point still stands that if we get a kid at 12, he will be the 7th best QB.

    When was the last time 7 first round QB's panned out in a draft.
    If this scenario pans out, it's definitely not Defcon 4 for the Vikes. Say this becomes reality, I would take one of these 4 guys in Rd 1: AJ Green, WR, Georgia; Von Miller, OLB, Texas A&M; Prince Amukamara, CB, Nebraska; Julio Jones, WR, Alabama. Then, I would go with a QB in Rd 2 or 3...Ricky Stanzi, Christian Ponder, Colin Kaepernick, Pat Devlin come to mind.

    Another likely scenario looks to me like we are going to need to make a choice between Gabbert and Locker, or waiting. In that scenario, I think we need to take Gabbert.
    Our local sports hack on the radio knows Dan Shonka (Ourlads Scouting) real well. He was on the radio yesterday talking about Gabbert. His belief is like most of the other "Gurus" (except Kiper) who say that Gabbert will be the second QB taken.

    On a side note, kindof pricey (NFL Teams use it as well), but I subscribe to thier scouting stuff.

    They get into great detail in thier draft book about all the kids (LDE or RDE/Better X than a Z/WCO QB/OLmen suited for ZB scheme etc) coming out and have a pretty good handle on team needs.

    Ourlads Scouting Service
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  7. #17
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    Re: First Round QBs Driving Playoff Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086969
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1086954
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086950
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1086942
    That's like saying if you're good enough to guess the lottery numbers you can get rich. Duh. Problem is, you seem to think finding the next Tom Brady is something you can do with a little effort. When in fact, that's not how it works.
    No, thats your interpretation of what I'm saying. As usual, your missing my point.
    Perhaps saying what you mean rather than not meaning what you say might be a way to go. Seems alot of people are missing your points.
    Do you see how many late round players are sitting at home? A hell of alot more.
    A hell of alot more? Did you see the numbers? Even if you go low on the guys that have bounced around, its about 10 teams are sitting at home with QB starting that are out of the first round.
    Hmm... So with Favre, it's a team effort, but for other teams, the first round QB's are why they're staying home? Or did I miss you're point? Sorry, I seem to do that more often lately. Most of the first round guys sitting at home, I would love to have as a Viking. Most of the late round crap we draft I would love to see leave the Vikings.

    No, what's important is the quality of player. However, that means the best players get picked early. So you're right, in the sense that picking the same guy in the first round instead of the second won't make him a better player. But we need to get a guy early.
    So your good with the 7th best QB this year.......
    Really? Now who's missing the point. Reaching for a guy in the first won't make him good. As I said, and I continue to say, we need to draft one of the top QB's. top 4-5 at most. After that it's just luck if we get a good guy. You know how you say that outside of the top 10, if a guy slips, it's for a reason? Well, if a guy isn't drafted in the first round, i'ts for a reason. More often than not, they're no good.

    Do you not find it odd, that we've ONLY ever drafted 2 first round QB's, and they have given us some of our best play from the QB position. Tark was second round. More often than not, teams that win superbowls and are elite forces in the league have quality first-round QB's. Pats are the exception.

    Steelers, 2 superbowls with a first round guy
    Colts, Manning makes them a contender any given year
    49ers, won all the superbowls with Montana and Young. Montana was 3rd round, young was first.
    Cowboys, Aikman was first round.

    Look at the playoffs this year. SOme of the best teams, teams with a legitimate shot of winning it all, Falcons, Colts, Jets, Falcons, Bears, Saints. All have first round players. Brees was second round, but #32 overall, which would make him a first round guy in this years format.

    You seem content with marginal players, I want a change. Kinda odd, you would think an older guy who has been around to witness the Vikings consistently fall short for the past 40 years would maybe want a bit of change.
    Your whole discussion is based on the fact that you somehow believe that I don't want to take a QB in the first round. Show me one place were I've said that.

    I want them to probaly worse than you do, however, it still gets back to scouting. If you are drafting someplace out of the top 5 or so, your not gonna get a "Franchise QB". Just doesn't happen as much as you believe. Again, look at all the QB's I listed that are sitting home that were taken in the first round over the last 10 years I provided a few posts back. Alot of them were taken in the top 10.

    Again, I am not saying we shouldn't take a guy in the first round ever, including this year. What I'm saying is that picking at 12 this year we will probably get the 7th best QB.

    My guess, you could probably get the 2nd or 3rd best OT, 2nd or 3rd best S, ect ect ect. and look to take a guy in the second. Less risk, less cost, and you gaurantee you fix a position that is broken.
    You have to also remember, it's January. The draft is in April. Between now and then, guys will shoot up the board, guys will drop. A team that you think is going to draft a QB might go with a guy who had a fantastic combine.

    Look at the past couple years. At this point last year, people were thinking McCoy and Clausen would both be top-15 draft picks. It happens every year.

    What you think is only the 7th best QB still might pan out to be the best. Certainly has a better shot than any 6th round nobody that people here seem quite content with drafting.

    There are people here who actually thought if we drafted Dan LeFevour our QB situation would be fixed. It just doesn't usually work out that way. We need to go after one of the best QB's. If he's not there, then he's not there. We shouldn't reach for a guy, but we need to aggressively pursue a top QB.

  8. #18
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    Re: First Round QBs Driving Playoff Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086972
    Quote Originally Posted by "MaxVike" #1086964
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086933
    One of the problems the Vikings have, however, is there might be six or more teams ahead of them who are looking for the same player to lead them back from the dumper. There's Carolina at No. 1, Buffalo at No. 3, Arizona at No. 5, possibly San Francisco at No. 7, possibly Tennessee at No. 8 and Washington at No. 10.
    Vikings have to get in line to draft franchise QB


    1. Carolina Panthers Andrew Luck, Q.B. -1 Franchise QB
    2. Denver Broncos - Tebow? Lets say they stay with him.
    3. Buffalo Bills - Cam Newton, QB -2 Franchise QB's
    4. Cincinnati Bengals - Palmer
    5. Arizona Cardinals - Skelton/DA? Gabbert -3 Franchise QB's
    6. Cleveland Browns - McCoy (Lots of INTs at the end but against good D's. Lets say they stay with him.
    7. San Francisco 49ers - Smith? Mallet - 4 Franchise QB's
    8. Tennessee Titans Shitcanned Young. Loucke -5 Franchise QB's
    9. Dallas Cowboys Romo
    10. Washington Redskins Dnabb? They only signed him so they can get something for him instead of letting him walk. Louck - 6th Best QB
    11. Houston Texans Schaub
    12. Minnesota Vikings Web Leaves us with the 7th best QB.

    Key note, rotate the QB's in order/team anyway you like. My point still stands that if we get a kid at 12, he will be the 7th best QB.

    When was the last time 7 first round QB's panned out in a draft.
    If this scenario pans out, it's definitely not Defcon 4 for the Vikes. Say this becomes reality, I would take one of these 4 guys in Rd 1: AJ Green, WR, Georgia; Von Miller, OLB, Texas A&M; Prince Amukamara, CB, Nebraska; Julio Jones, WR, Alabama. Then, I would go with a QB in Rd 2 or 3...Ricky Stanzi, Christian Ponder, Colin Kaepernick, Pat Devlin come to mind.

    Another likely scenario looks to me like we are going to need to make a choice between Gabbert and Locker, or waiting. In that scenario, I think we need to take Gabbert.
    Our local sports hack on the radio knows Dan Shonka (Ourlads Scouting) real well. He was on the radio yesterday talking about Gabbert. His belief is like most of the other "Gurus" (except Kiper) who say that Gabbert will be the second QB taken.

    On a side note, kindof pricey (NFL Teams use it as well), but I subscribe to thier scouting stuff.

    They get into great detail in thier draft book about all the kids (LDE or RDE/Better X than a Z/WCO QB/OLmen suited for ZB scheme etc) coming out and have a pretty good handle on team needs.

    Ourlads Scouting Service
    Thanks for the link...looks interesting, like something I will buy too. But, gotta say, you left me high and dry Marr , I guess you don't like any of my 4 guys at 12 in scenario 1?

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  9. #19
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    Re: First Round QBs Driving Playoff Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1086974
    You have to also remember, it's January. The draft is in April. Between now and then, guys will shoot up the board, guys will drop. A team that you think is going to draft a QB might go with a guy who had a fantastic combine.

    Look at the past couple years. At this point last year, people were thinking McCoy and Clausen would both be top-15 draft picks. It happens every year.

    What you think is only the 7th best QB still might pan out to be the best. Certainly has a better shot than any 6th round nobody that people here seem quite content with drafting.

    There are people here who actually thought if we drafted Dan LeFevour our QB situation would be fixed. It just doesn't usually work out that way. We need to go after one of the best QB's. If he's not there, then he's not there. We shouldn't reach for a guy, but we need to aggressively pursue a top QB.
    Damn, nothing to discuss out of that. Like it all....... On a side note, I was on "Ourlads" a minute ago. Found these that kindof jives with what we are discussing...

    13 QBs taken in the first round 2000-2006.
    Draft Averages

    Sudden Impact

    Look towards the bottom of this one. You will see a link to "QBs: Grow Your Own or Buy One?" Some very interesting numbers in there that you might like (or not). :laugh:
    Draft Metrics
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  10. #20
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    Re: First Round QBs Driving Playoff Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by "MaxVike" #1086979
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086972
    Quote Originally Posted by "MaxVike" #1086964
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086933
    One of the problems the Vikings have, however, is there might be six or more teams ahead of them who are looking for the same player to lead them back from the dumper. There's Carolina at No. 1, Buffalo at No. 3, Arizona at No. 5, possibly San Francisco at No. 7, possibly Tennessee at No. 8 and Washington at No. 10.
    Vikings have to get in line to draft franchise QB


    1. Carolina Panthers Andrew Luck, Q.B. -1 Franchise QB
    2. Denver Broncos - Tebow? Lets say they stay with him.
    3. Buffalo Bills - Cam Newton, QB -2 Franchise QB's
    4. Cincinnati Bengals - Palmer
    5. Arizona Cardinals - Skelton/DA? Gabbert -3 Franchise QB's
    6. Cleveland Browns - McCoy (Lots of INTs at the end but against good D's. Lets say they stay with him.
    7. San Francisco 49ers - Smith? Mallet - 4 Franchise QB's
    8. Tennessee Titans Shitcanned Young. Loucke -5 Franchise QB's
    9. Dallas Cowboys Romo
    10. Washington Redskins Dnabb? They only signed him so they can get something for him instead of letting him walk. Louck - 6th Best QB
    11. Houston Texans Schaub
    12. Minnesota Vikings Web Leaves us with the 7th best QB.

    Key note, rotate the QB's in order/team anyway you like. My point still stands that if we get a kid at 12, he will be the 7th best QB.

    When was the last time 7 first round QB's panned out in a draft.
    If this scenario pans out, it's definitely not Defcon 4 for the Vikes. Say this becomes reality, I would take one of these 4 guys in Rd 1: AJ Green, WR, Georgia; Von Miller, OLB, Texas A&M; Prince Amukamara, CB, Nebraska; Julio Jones, WR, Alabama. Then, I would go with a QB in Rd 2 or 3...Ricky Stanzi, Christian Ponder, Colin Kaepernick, Pat Devlin come to mind.

    Another likely scenario looks to me like we are going to need to make a choice between Gabbert and Locker, or waiting. In that scenario, I think we need to take Gabbert.
    Our local sports hack on the radio knows Dan Shonka (Ourlads Scouting) real well. He was on the radio yesterday talking about Gabbert. His belief is like most of the other "Gurus" (except Kiper) who say that Gabbert will be the second QB taken.

    On a side note, kindof pricey (NFL Teams use it as well), but I subscribe to thier scouting stuff.

    They get into great detail in thier draft book about all the kids (LDE or RDE/Better X than a Z/WCO QB/OLmen suited for ZB scheme etc) coming out and have a pretty good handle on team needs.

    Ourlads Scouting Service
    Thanks for the link...looks interesting, like something I will buy too. But, gotta say, you left me high and dry Marr , I guess you don't like any of my 4 guys at 12 in scenario 1?
    My apologies my friend.

    I just haven't had time to look at any of the other positions yet but QB. And only the top 10 at that position.

    Of the names in the second, I kindof like Ponder. If we don't go QB in the first, I would hope they would look at LT before we worry about CB.

    Lots of young talent already on the roster in that position. We just need to keep them healthy.

    Gimme a month or so and I will post my team needs thread and start working on projections leading into my 7 round mock.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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