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  1. #1
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Defense Information C2 vs T2

    I can't find the last one I posted on this topic this summer/spring so I thought I'd put another info post up so that people can understand the differences between the 2 and why I keep harping on the need for a Warpig.

    I love this one......Gives you alot of history on how defenses evolved on how the DLmen, LB'rs and DB's work in the T2 and C2....

    All 3-technique tackles are not alike. Defensive coaches continually search for ways to make their defensive linemen more effective. One of those ways, which was later adapted to the Tampa-2 defense by Tony Dungy and Monte Kiffin, was to slide the defensive tackles away from the strength of the offensive formation instead of playing them in even alignments over the offensive guards. This "undershifted" front makes it very difficult for the offensive line to double team the 3-technique, or in this case, undertackle.
    The lineage of great undertackle includes many of the league's other most successful pass rushing defensive tackles. John Randle, the first undertackle in what would become the Tampa-2 defense, racked up nine consecutive seasons of ten or more sacks. La'Roi Glover's 17 sack season in 2000 came as an undertackle. Kevin Williams, Rod Coleman, Vonnie Holliday, Tommie Harris? All have had very successful seasons playing 3-technique on defenses frequently using underfronts during the last five years. The Giants nickel pass rush that used four defensive ends to wreak havoc on offensive lines early in 2007 frequently moved Osi Umenyiora or Justin Tuck into undertackle-like roles.
    IDP ASIDE
    The implications of our discussion of undertackles should be crystal clear. While conventional wisdom suggests ignoring defensive tackles altogether for IDP roster purposes (and rightly so in most cases), you can now see why and when it's acceptable to deviate and target this special class of defensive tackles. As we hinted above, nearly every team that uses the Tampa-2 frequently (now just IND, CHI, BUF, MIN and in smaller doses than in prior seasons) should be scouted for an undertackle worth rostering. Be on the lookout for other 4-3 teams that aren't Tampa-2 teams, but use some undershifted fronts like the New York Giants, Seattle, St. Louis, Cincinnati, Houston and Carolina. Watch for mentions of undertackle and 3-technique in each team's defensive line discussions and be alert for those 4-3 depth charts that list one of the two DTs as a nose tackle. Very often, the other tackle is a 3-technique.
    It's not at all uncommon to see a previously marginal talent explode for big numbers as an undertackle - as Cory Redding and Jovan Haye have in recent seasons. Vonnie Holliday's renaissance in his early 30s was directly attributable to his move to undertackle in Nick Saban's defense in Miami.
    With the Tampa-2 defensive scheme no longer the hot defensive fad it was earlier in the decade, 3-technique tackles may be harder to find. But quick, powerful, penetrating tackles won't go the way of the dinosaur. Expect to see more teams scheme the underfront into their nickel packages. As Mike Nolan did in 2008 in San Francisco and the Arizona Cardinals did under Clancy Pendergast, the 3-technique tackle in an underfront may become a common sight among the newer 4-3/3-4 hybrid front defenses beginning to take over the league. Watch for players like Glenn Dorsey or Robert Ayers to work into 3-technique roles in their team's new hybrid schemes. Brandon Mebane (SEA) or Adam Carriker (STL) may also see more time in 3-technique roles under new defensive coaches in 2009.
    Okay, so it might be a stretch to call Jimmy Johnson the lone driving force of the move back to the 4-3 front in the 1990s, in college or the professional ranks. But the attacking style of defense he brought to the NFL from his days as a college coach continues to impact the league today.
    Johnson knew he couldn't recruit successfully against the big schools in his first head coaching gig at Oklahoma State. So he recruited athletes - football talent and size was nice, but speed and athleticism were what he wanted. He simplified the 4-3 scheme to a bare bones approach. No reading and reacting, no controlling your gap assignment. Instead, he coached his players to attack, penetrate and swarm along the front seven and used simple zone coverage in the secondary. He took safeties and made them linebackers. He turned linebackers into speedy, edge rushing defensive ends. Within ten years, a huge number of college coaches followed suit and turned out the players (and coaches) that would change the face of defensive football in the NFL.
    1. Cover-2 teams must have very talented safeties and a solid pass rush. Each safety has to be able to cover an entire half of the field. They need range, closing speed, tackling skill and enough run-pass recognition ability to not get fooled by play-action. It's extremely difficult for one man to handle the deep middle and the deep sideline. Having an average safety behind a poor pass rush that gives the quarterback time to wait for the deep routes to develop is a recipe for disaster.
    2. The Cover-2 can also be beaten by flooding one side of the zone with multiple receivers running routes on multiple levels. Force the safety, corner or outside linebacker to make decisions on which receiver to cover and another route may be left open. That was made painfully clear to the Washington Redskins last year when the Cowboys used Terrell Owens, Patrick Crayton and Jason Witten to pressure one side of the Redskin Cover-2 with a combination of sideline, seam, out and deep middle routes.
    3. Cover-2 teams, by definition, put only seven players in the box and are susceptible to the run. They hope to successfully take away the run without dropping a safety into the box. A team that wants to run Cover-2 because their corners struggle in man coverage but can't stop the run with the front seven is in major trouble.
    4. Cover-2 teams, by definition, can't blitz a linebacker frequently. The linebackers and corners can take more underneath zone responsibility, but the pressure must come from the front four. As mentioned above, a Cover-2 that can't generate pressure goes from a bend-but-don't-break style of play to one that gives up big plays in bunches when the deep routes come open downfield.
    The Ultimate Guide to NFL Defense

    Couple on how the MLB is used for both variants.

    2. Cover 2 – Basically means you split the field in half using the center as the middle. Each safety has deep halves (deep as the deepest receiver on their half of the field). The corners have the flat, the OLB's have hook to curl, and the MLB has what I call the short hole (the void left when the OLB's bail out to the curl). All NFL teams play some form of cover 2 some of the time. As for the dreaded Tampa 2, the only difference between it and the Cover 2 zone is how deep the MLB has to play. In a Tampa 2 the MLB drops 10-15 yards into coverage to take away the cover 2's biggest weakness, the deep middle.
    Zone 101: The Difference Between Traditional Zone Defense and the Tampa 2 | Giants 101 | Sports Media 101

    Alot of you keep harping on our MLB and how far he drops. Keep in mind that we don't run the T2 but rather the C2.

    These basic coverage schemes, and variants on them, are as old as the hills. Typically, a Cover 2 splits the deep part of the field into two halves, and the two safeties provide deep help for the outside corners. Underneath, the corners and linebackers split the fields into five short zones. The defensive line is responsible for generating pass rush.
    The Cover 2, with or without the "Tampa" modification, relies entirely on the front four to generate a pass rush. With the linebackers fully committed to coverage, the front four must get at the quarterback or risk the zone coverage being picked apart.
    Football 101: Breaking Down the Cover 2 Defense | Bleacher Report


    Cover 2, Tampa-2

    The one secondary scheme that basically changes all the rules is the cover 2 and it's variation the Tampa-2. The Colts and Bucks have used this scheme for years and now several others have joined them including the Bears, Vikings, Lions, Bills. In all there are 6 clubs using this scheme on a regular basis and a few others who have it in their playbook for situational use. The basic difference between the normal 4-3 and the cover 2 is that in a cover 2 both safeties take on free safety responsibilities with each covering half of the field while the corners are asked to play more aggressively underneath. They usually move up closer to the line of scrimmage where they can be more physical with the receivers, often jamming them at the line and trying to alter their patterns. Being positioned closer to the line, the cover 2 corner generally has a much bigger role in run support. In fact the strong side corner often takes on very similar responsibilities to the strong safety.
    Footballguys.com - Breaking Down NFL Defenses - In search of IDP production
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  2. #2
    tastywaves's Avatar
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    Are you sure that we are primarily a cover 2 defense? The coaches would beg to differ:

    Notebook: Vikings want to mix it up ...fensive scheme

    EDEN PRAIRIE, Minn. -- The Minnesota Vikings have been considered to play a Tampa-2 defense since Brad Childress took over as head coach in 2006 and hired Mike Tomlin from Tampa Bay to be his coordinator.

    That didn't change in 2007 when Leslie Frazier replaced Tomlin after the latter was hired as coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers.

    But Vikings officials long have said that classifying their defense as exclusively a Tampa-2 isn't accurate because they mixed in other looks as well.

    That proved to be the case in the Vikings' 26-23 victory over Jacksonville on Sunday at the Metrodome -- the first game for Alan Williams as the team's defensive coordinator.

    "When we were playing our best defense, we were not a heavy Cover-2 team and our personnel is getting back to where we need it to be," said Frazier, who was promoted from coordinator to coach during the 2010 season when Childress was fired.

    "The last couple of years, we've struggled on the back end from a personnel standpoint, but we're getting to where we need to be so we can mix up a little bit more and not be as predictable as we had become. It's more about our personnel than anything."
    Over the last several years we have been running a primarily Tampa 2 defense, not a cover 2. However, I think we have run our share of cover 2 (or some bastardized version of it) as well primarily due to the limitations of our MLB. If the coaching staff had the preference, as they keep saying, they would like to rely less and less on a heavy zone style defense. This is coming from two coaches who grew up with Tampa 2 defenses. The lack of talent in the secondary has been the primary reason for the conservative defense.

  3. #3
    skum's Avatar
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    We run a lot of cover 2 and even some cover 3 with either an extra corner or the MLB dropping back.. We run a lot of nickle defense with 2 linebackers and an extra cornerback in there.. Ive also seen a lot of safety blitz and some MIKE blitz.. I think we have a zone defense base which depends on not to give up the big play over the top, but most of all we adjust to what is in front of us and play the opponent to what fits us best..


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    singersp's Avatar
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    Cover-2 teams must have very talented safeties and a solid pass rush. Each safety has to be able to cover an entire half of the field. They need range, closing speed, tackling skill and enough run-pass recognition ability to not get fooled by play-action. It's extremely difficult for one man to handle the deep middle and the deep sideline. Having an average safety behind a poor pass rush that gives the quarterback time to wait for the deep routes to develop is a recipe for disaster.
    Do we have that kind of safety Marr?

    With today's athletic QB's that can avoid even decent pass rushing, I believe the last statement can happen if you don't have speed and talent at the DB positions. Especially if they're giving them big cushions.

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    singersp's Avatar
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    Marr, didn't you say damn near every team ran the cover2? I recall you telling that to someone (PF? Kevon?) when they said hardly anyone uses it anymore.

    Now, just six years later, only two teams -- the Bears and Vikings -- consider the cover 2 to be their base defense. Most teams are switching to more combination man coverages, in part to combat the two-tight-end sets growing in popularity (see sidebar). But an even bigger reason for the demise of the cover 2 is the rapid rise of defensive penalties called for big hits.
    Chicago Bears and Minnesota Vikings are only teams using cover 2 defense - ESPN The Magazine - ESPN

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  6. #6
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    Most teams are switching to more combination man coverages
    Interesting! Where have I heard someone suggest we need to change the scheme to have more man to man coverage before?

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  7. #7
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    Are you sure that we are primarily a cover 2 defense? The coaches would beg to differ:

    Notebook: Vikings want to mix it up ...fensive scheme



    Over the last several years we have been running a primarily Tampa 2 defense, not a cover 2. However, I think we have run our share of cover 2 (or some bastardized version of it) as well primarily due to the limitations of our MLB. If the coaching staff had the preference, as they keep saying, they would like to rely less and less on a heavy zone style defense. This is coming from two coaches who grew up with Tampa 2 defenses. The lack of talent in the secondary has been the primary reason for the conservative defense.
    I think you need to be very careful when you read the articles. If they don't clearly differenctiate between the two, I think you can go on the assumption that the writer doesn't know that there is in fact a difference between the two.

    From what I've gathered over the summer (reading up on this guy) both he and Leslie like to run a mix of the two (T2 and C2) but prefer the C2 and will use that as their base.


    Q: Considering your familiarity with Leslie Frazier and his defense, how much of your previous defense did you use as a starting point and how much of it did you start fresh?
    A: People ask me that question a lot, kind of Leslie’s defense or the Tampa 2 scheme, that type of thing.
    Williams won't unveil anything revolutionary scheme-wise. He'll keep the Vikings running a Cover-2 based system but has vowed to mix in more man-to-man coverage.
    Vikings decision-makers: Defensive coordinator Alan Williams | StarTribune.com
    Vikings Quotes - Alan Williams - July 31

    Williams is most comfortable running a Tampa-2, Cover-2 coverage scheme. Considering that Frazier wants to run that particular coverage scheme in 2012 helps Williams' chances of landing the spot as the Vikings' defensive coordinator.
    Williams may not be the most decorated candidate that the Vikings have shown interest in, but his history with Frazier and the Cover 2 defense could make him a good match in Minnesota.
    Vikings Request Permission to Interview Colts
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  8. #8
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skum View Post
    We run a lot of cover 2 and even some cover 3 with either an extra corner or the MLB dropping back.. We run a lot of nickle defense with 2 linebackers and an extra cornerback in there.. Ive also seen a lot of safety blitz and some MIKE blitz.. I think we have a zone defense base which depends on not to give up the big play over the top, but most of all we adjust to what is in front of us and play the opponent to what fits us best..
    Agree, from what I've read on this guy, mixed in with what I'm seeing, he is pretty versatile in most variants of defenses that rely on a 4 man front.
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  9. #9
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Do we have that kind of safety Marr?

    With today's athletic QB's that can avoid even decent pass rushing, I believe the last statement can happen if you don't have speed and talent at the DB positions. Especially if they're giving them big cushions.
    I think we do. Thats why they made sure they landed Smith. I think over time (and I don't think that is going to be a very long time the way he has played this year) Smitty is going to be a damn fine safety in this scheme.

    As to the cushions being provided. I can't see it as good as you guys do in the dome, but it appears to me that our CB's are playing tight and trying to funnel to the inside.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  10. #10
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Marr, didn't you say damn near every team ran the cover2? I recall you telling that to someone (PF? Kevon?) when they said hardly anyone uses it anymore.



    Chicago Bears and Minnesota Vikings are only teams using cover 2 defense - ESPN The Magazine - ESPN
    I said that most (ALL) teams use some sort of "Zone Coverage" at times. Didn't say a word about Base Defenses.
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