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  1. #21
    keystonevike is offline Starter
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "Freya" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    I completely understand the reasoning for Childress not telling anyone about Favre.
    I just don't agree with it.

    I think this was a very poor decision by the coaching staff and ownership to allow a player to basically skip all of training camp.
    I think Florio hit it in the head;
    The only semi-plausible approach was a renewed commitment to retirement, with the express (and top-secret) understanding that the Tuesday after the preseason opener would be the day Favre officially unretires.
    I agree with that assessment completely.

    I am big into team dynamics.
    People that work with me know that I stress team and social interaction both in and out of the workplace.
    To let someone, no matter how good they are, skip training camp because they don't want to go is a poor move IMHO.
    Would Favre have gotten anything out of training camp?
    Not really.
    But it would have set a standard for the younger players, who NEED to be there.


    But in the end it wasn't my decision.
    So I make my feelings regarding the coaching staff and Childress known, and I move on.
    It doesn't take away (much) from the fact that we are still a much better team now, and for good or bad, winning solves everything.
    And I am excited to see Favre open the game in purple tonight!
    I agree with this, mostly. I disagree with Favre not gaining anything positive out of TC. If he cannot gain anything from TC then he truly does not belong on the field of play. Does anyone truly believe that there comes a point where you have nothing left to learn? I absolutely believe that you can never learn enough or even learn it all, even in only one specialized area. And most especially where your body is involved to a great extent. I know this from my training in Ballet for many many years. He is coming off a surgery where I can guarantee you he will have to make adjustments. He will be surrounded by players he has never played with before. These kinds of things require a substantial amount of "learning" to perform at the highest levels. In addition to that, skipping TC sets back the gluing of each unit to the other units to form a cohesive team totally in sync with each other. IF, it was known all along that Favre would come after camp, then I have even less trust in Childress than I did before. Aside from the fact that this sets the team back, it also corrupts the trust the players have in their coaches. Whatever reasons they had for lying, I can't think of a single one that can be considered valid. Not one.
    We've probably all seen and heard the reports about BF admitting to having a small tear in a muscle in the shoulder of his throwing arm (or something like that) and that throwing 50-60 passes a day could aggravate it. This may be a reason for keeping him out of camp. But he still could have shown up to go over some plays without throwing too much. I think this would have been better than dragging on this whole thing for another week (or having your other QBs think they were competing for a starting job).

  2. #22
    Freya's Avatar
    Freya is offline Team Alumni
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "snowinapril" wrote:
    "Freya" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    I completely understand the reasoning for Childress not telling anyone about Favre.
    I just don't agree with it.

    I think this was a very poor decision by the coaching staff and ownership to allow a player to basically skip all of training camp.
    I think Florio hit it in the head;
    The only semi-plausible approach was a renewed commitment to retirement, with the express (and top-secret) understanding that the Tuesday after the preseason opener would be the day Favre officially unretires.
    I agree with that assessment completely.

    I am big into team dynamics.
    People that work with me know that I stress team and social interaction both in and out of the workplace.
    To let someone, no matter how good they are, skip training camp because they don't want to go is a poor move IMHO.
    Would Favre have gotten anything out of training camp?
    Not really.
    But it would have set a standard for the younger players, who NEED to be there.


    But in the end it wasn't my decision.
    So I make my feelings regarding the coaching staff and Childress known, and I move on.
    It doesn't take away (much) from the fact that we are still a much better team now, and for good or bad, winning solves everything.
    And I am excited to see Favre open the game in purple tonight!
    I agree with this, mostly. I disagree with Favre not gaining anything positive out of TC. If he cannot gain anything from TC then he truly does not belong on the field of play. Does anyone truly believe that there comes a point where you have nothing left to learn? I absolutely believe that you can never learn enough or even learn it all, even in only one specialized area. And most especially where your body is involved to a great extent. I know this from my training in Ballet for many many years. He is coming off a surgery where I can guarantee you he will have to make adjustments. He will be surrounded by players he has never played with before. These kinds of things require a substantial amount of "learning" to perform at the highest levels. In addition to that, skipping TC sets back the gluing of each unit to the other units to form a cohesive team totally in sync with each other. IF, it was known all along that Favre would come after camp, then I have even less trust in Childress than I did before. Aside from the fact that this sets the team back, it also corrupts the trust the players have in their coaches. Whatever reasons they had for lying, I can't think of a single one that can be considered valid. Not one.
    Freya, the trust factor is the biggest thing to me.
    It has bothered me since the signing.


    The closed book comment bothers me and adds to the distrust.

    But when it comes down to it, the best players play.
    It has always been that way.
    We had a kid on our basketball team in high school.
    He got in trouble, coach said he would not start, he didn't start, but was in the game in like 1 minute.
    Best players play........


    As far as coming to camp, if he was actually throwing in MS and then going home sitting down and looking at the play book nightly without having to mingle and answer stupid questions over and over and over and over, I think he might actually have benefited by staying at home.
    Mooch said it best in his little interview
    by VEN.
    Basically he said that Brett was out there today (the first day) and said that he didn't miss a beat.
    The players have nuances that can be ironed out in the next 3 weeks the rest of it is old hat.


    EDIT:
    Losing will break down a team faster than anything,
    the distrust is fuel and losing is the match, the fire extinguisher is winning.
    Bad play by TJ would have ignited a good blaze this season, it would have started a blame game.

    About the lying, you can't not include the Wilf's in this, but somehow Chilly gets all the credit in this lie.
    Well said. Although it would have soothed me (yeah, me and that's important you know.
    :P) if Favre had shown up to camp anyway.

    Somehow I think there were so may different angles to this lie, that no one person was involved or had a truly level headed opinion on all of them collectively. Wilf certainly benefits from a purely business standpoint, such as ticket sales, jersey sales etc. Just very bad form.


    Personally, I don't think there is intelligent life on other planets. Why should other planets be any different from this one?

  3. #23
    Freya's Avatar
    Freya is offline Team Alumni
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Freya" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    I completely understand the reasoning for Childress not telling anyone about Favre.
    I just don't agree with it.

    I think this was a very poor decision by the coaching staff and ownership to allow a player to basically skip all of training camp.
    I think Florio hit it in the head;
    The only semi-plausible approach was a renewed commitment to retirement, with the express (and top-secret) understanding that the Tuesday after the preseason opener would be the day Favre officially unretires.
    I agree with that assessment completely.

    I am big into team dynamics.
    People that work with me know that I stress team and social interaction both in and out of the workplace.
    To let someone, no matter how good they are, skip training camp because they don't want to go is a poor move IMHO.
    Would Favre have gotten anything out of training camp?
    Not really.
    But it would have set a standard for the younger players, who NEED to be there.


    But in the end it wasn't my decision.
    So I make my feelings regarding the coaching staff and Childress known, and I move on.
    It doesn't take away (much) from the fact that we are still a much better team now, and for good or bad, winning solves everything.
    And I am excited to see Favre open the game in purple tonight!
    I agree with this, mostly. I disagree with Favre not gaining anything positive out of TC. If he cannot gain anything from TC then he truly does not belong on the field of play. Does anyone truly believe that there comes a point where you have nothing left to learn? I absolutely believe that you can never learn enough or even learn it all, even in only one specialized area. And most especially where your body is involved to a great extent. I know this from my training in Ballet for many many years. He is coming off a surgery where I can guarantee you he will have to make adjustments. He will be surrounded by players he has never played with before. These kinds of things require a substantial amount of "learning" to perform at the highest levels. In addition to that, skipping TC sets back the gluing of each unit to the other units to form a cohesive team totally in sync with each other. IF, it was known all along that Favre would come after camp, then I have even less trust in Childress than I did before. Aside from the fact that this sets the team back, it also corrupts the trust the players have in their coaches. Whatever reasons they had for lying, I can't think of a single one that can be considered valid. Not one.
    I don't dispute that.
    But the impact of training camp lessons considerably as players send more time in the system.
    I think the PH lost more from missing two days of training camp than Farve did by missing the whole thing.

    But HAD Favre been there, I think that the benefit to the younger players would have made it worthwhile.

    As far as not trusting Childress - don't shoot the messenger.
    This was a business decision that involved everyone from the head coach on up.
    It isn't about being trustworthy or corrupt.
    It was a calculated business move.
    I understanding their reasoning for it, but disagree with the decision.
    Then again, I am an engineer making 50X less than Favre is right now, so who am I say I know better...
    I agree that one way or another the team would have benefited from Favre's presence at camp. Without a doubt.

    As for Childress..........at the risk of sounding harsh, I would say to him: bummer to be the face of the team, dude. You're covered with rotten tomatoes. Sucks, but too bad so sad.
    Chilly is the link between the office and the field. He is in far more contact with the players on a day to day basis. He is the team leader for all intents and purposes. In that regard I believe, he has a greater obligation to the players than to the office. In this instance it would have been an incredibly difficult position to be in, no doubt. How it could have been better handled I'm not sure, but the truth is he isn't just the messenger, he was also culpable.


    Personally, I don't think there is intelligent life on other planets. Why should other planets be any different from this one?

  4. #24
    gagarr's Avatar
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "snowinapril" wrote:
    "C" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    BTW, something I have noticed.

    Speilman has been VERY quiet since the Favre signing.
    My specualtion (no proof, just MHO) is that he did not agree with the decision to let Favre skip camp, and he is showing his displeasure with the situation.
    If so, then he scored a few points with me today.

    I like what Speilman has been able to do since he came to the Vikings.
    I hope this isn't going to be a problem for him.
    Agreed, I believe the whole Sage vs. TJack battle was also a Spielman vs Chilly battle too... in the end, when Chilly's guy started playing poorly again, he said F-that... I'll get Favre.
    IMHO, I have thought by the actions of obtaining Favre that happened over a year ago,
    which BF played the Pack to try to get them to release him from the start was to get to the Vikings.
    I claimed that last season when it was happening.
    I believe it more now than ever.
    But Chilly gave up on TJ before last season.
    I give him credit for that.
    Last season was to give TJ his last chance.
    This year, they were already moving to Sage, not just Rick, but Chilly as well.
    TJ got injured last year and he said screw it Frerote is taking the reigns.
    Rick or Chilly or both realized they needed to see how TJ would play down the stretch and how he would lead into the playoffs.
    They weren't impress, Rick went out and got Sage.
    I think you are right that Chilly's option was BF and he was allowed to pursue it.
    They still need to groom a QB
    they all know BF won't be around long.
    +1
    Nicely said!
    [size=12pt]
    Page 148.5 **Doleman 150.5 **Randle 137.5 **Allen 73+
    [/size]

  5. #25
    snowinapril's Avatar
    snowinapril is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    Why is Brandon Marshall not in the preseason game?

    The new coach comes in and thinks he is Belichick?
    He is going to clean house of attitudes.

    The coach said that Marshall is not far enough along in the new offense and he will play when he is ready.
    Why not say, we have him on the trading block because he is being an ass.
    OK, maybe he isn't on the trading block, but still why all the cryptic crap from the coach.

    McDaniel's start reminds me a bit of Chilly's start.
    Got rid of DC and was kind of a hard ass to the current players.

    McDaniels isn't being truthful.......... right or wrong?
    Necessary or unnecessary?

    Point is that sometimes this is how poker is played in the NFL.
    Some are better at it than others.

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