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  1. #11
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    BTW, something I have noticed.

    Speilman has been VERY quiet since the Favre signing.
    My specualtion (no proof, just MHO) is that he did not agree with the decision to let Favre skip camp, and he is showing his displeasure with the situation.
    If so, then he scored a few points with me today.

    I like what Speilman has been able to do since he came to the Vikings.
    I hope this isn't going to be a problem for him.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  2. #12
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    I completely understand the reasoning for Childress not telling anyone about Favre.
    I just don't agree with it.

    I think this was a very poor decision by the coaching staff and ownership to allow a player to basically skip all of training camp.
    I think Florio hit it in the head;
    The only semi-plausible approach was a renewed commitment to retirement, with the express (and top-secret) understanding that the Tuesday after the preseason opener would be the day Favre officially unretires.
    I agree with that assessment completely.

    I am big into team dynamics.
    People that work with me know that I stress team and social interaction both in and out of the workplace.
    To let someone, no matter how good they are, skip training camp because they don't want to go is a poor move IMHO.
    Would Favre have gotten anything out of training camp?
    Not really.
    But it would have set a standard for the younger players, who NEED to be there.

    But in the end it wasn't my decision.
    So I make my feelings regarding the coaching staff and Childress known, and I move on.
    It doesn't take away (much) from the fact that we are still a much better team now, and for good or bad, winning solves everything.
    And I am excited to see Favre open the game in purple tonight!
    Belichick said yesterday on Mike and Mike that the amount of camp that BF missed is about 1/4th of the entire amount of regular season practices they will have.
    So, have we essentially kept BF from getting that wear and tear on his body?
    I didn't do the math, but it would be 6 times 2 practices per week.
    During the season, what 3.5 - 4 practice per week?

    This seems tactical!

    As far as the team dynamics, you are dealing with BF who charms everyone.
    Heck the first things he said to pH was.... basically nice to meet you and then to deflect the awe by pH, he said casually, "make me look good now."
    He is a charming MF!
    As long as he doesn't swing and miss on the field, it will all play out if he is the real deal.

  3. #13
    C Mac D's Avatar
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    BTW, something I have noticed.

    Speilman has been VERY quiet since the Favre signing.
    My specualtion (no proof, just MHO) is that he did not agree with the decision to let Favre skip camp, and he is showing his displeasure with the situation.
    If so, then he scored a few points with me today.

    I like what Speilman has been able to do since he came to the Vikings.
    I hope this isn't going to be a problem for him.
    Agreed, I believe the whole Sage vs. TJack battle was also a Spielman vs Chilly battle too... in the end, when Chilly's guy started playing poorly again, he said F-that... I'll get Favre.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  4. #14
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "The" wrote:
    Is it tactical? I have no problem with the management of NFL teams lying to players and fans if they genuinely need to lie about such things in order for a plan to come together. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see how lying to fans and players about Ron Mexico or Brett Favre helps anything.

    I guess in the case of Brett Favre they may have lied because if it didn't work out, then you'd have some pretty pissed off starting/backup QB's. But that has pretty much happened anyways, so obviously if they were lying, it wasn't very effective.

    In Mexico's case, I just don't see the point of lying at all. The guy is a backup, McNabb wanted him there, so he isn't butthurt, and the fans that object to him being there would have objected either way.

    Now, the kind of deceptions I don't mind from my team's management is faking or lying about injuries, or any in-game deceptive maneuvers. For example, pretending like you're tipping your hand or giving away your play-calling signals on purpose and then doing something completely different. These are things that might actually give you an advantage against your opponent.
    The plan was to create as much hype as possible for the favre signing, and thus have ticket sales explode. And the fans do not need to know EVERYTHING. Like X-mas, the surprise presents can be the best.

    And since the signing was "out of the blue" (Kind of), ppl had calmed down enough, and the surprise overwhelmed those who would have normally fought aloud against signing him (I would have. Starting to recognize the error of my ways).

    This whole thing was a ploy, as well as to get some quality practice time between the two episodes.
    Trying to bring rationale to an irrational site

  5. #15
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "C" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    BTW, something I have noticed.

    Speilman has been VERY quiet since the Favre signing.
    My specualtion (no proof, just MHO) is that he did not agree with the decision to let Favre skip camp, and he is showing his displeasure with the situation.
    If so, then he scored a few points with me today.

    I like what Speilman has been able to do since he came to the Vikings.
    I hope this isn't going to be a problem for him.
    Agreed, I believe the whole Sage vs. TJack battle was also a Spielman vs Chilly battle too... in the end, when Chilly's guy started playing poorly again, he said F-that... I'll get Favre.
    IMHO, I have thought by the actions of obtaining Favre that happened over a year ago,
    which BF played the Pack to try to get them to release him from the start was to get to the Vikings.
    I claimed that last season when it was happening.
    I believe it more now than ever.
    But Chilly gave up on TJ before last season.
    I give him credit for that.
    Last season was to give TJ his last chance.
    This year, they were already moving to Sage, not just Rick, but Chilly as well.
    TJ got injured last year and he said screw it Frerote is taking the reigns.
    Rick or Chilly or both realized they needed to see how TJ would play down the stretch and how he would lead into the playoffs.
    They weren't impress, Rick went out and got Sage.
    I think you are right that Chilly's option was BF and he was allowed to pursue it.
    They still need to groom a QB
    they all know BF won't be around long.

  6. #16
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    I completely understand the reasoning for Childress not telling anyone about Favre.
    I just don't agree with it.

    I think this was a very poor decision by the coaching staff and ownership to allow a player to basically skip all of training camp.
    I think Florio hit it in the head;
    The only semi-plausible approach was a renewed commitment to retirement, with the express (and top-secret) understanding that the Tuesday after the preseason opener would be the day Favre officially unretires.
    I agree with that assessment completely.

    I am big into team dynamics.
    People that work with me know that I stress team and social interaction both in and out of the workplace.
    To let someone, no matter how good they are, skip training camp because they don't want to go is a poor move IMHO.
    Would Favre have gotten anything out of training camp?
    Not really.
    But it would have set a standard for the younger players, who NEED to be there.


    But in the end it wasn't my decision.
    So I make my feelings regarding the coaching staff and Childress known, and I move on.
    It doesn't take away (much) from the fact that we are still a much better team now, and for good or bad, winning solves everything.
    And I am excited to see Favre open the game in purple tonight!
    I agree with this, mostly. I disagree with Favre not gaining anything positive out of TC. If he cannot gain anything from TC then he truly does not belong on the field of play. Does anyone truly believe that there comes a point where you have nothing left to learn? I absolutely believe that you can never learn enough or even learn it all, even in only one specialized area. And most especially where your body is involved to a great extent. I know this from my training in Ballet for many many years. He is coming off a surgery where I can guarantee you he will have to make adjustments. He will be surrounded by players he has never played with before. These kinds of things require a substantial amount of "learning" to perform at the highest levels. In addition to that, skipping TC sets back the gluing of each unit to the other units to form a cohesive team totally in sync with each other. IF, it was known all along that Favre would come after camp, then I have even less trust in Childress than I did before. Aside from the fact that this sets the team back, it also corrupts the trust the players have in their coaches. Whatever reasons they had for lying, I can't think of a single one that can be considered valid. Not one.


    Personally, I don't think there is intelligent life on other planets. Why should other planets be any different from this one?

  7. #17
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "Caine" wrote:
    [quote]
    "snowinapril]Is" wrote:
    [quote]

    To a point...yes.


    A football team is a business.
    Their goal is to win.
    Sometimes, winning requires less than full disclosure.

    "snowinapril]Please" wrote:
    [quote]

    The best time to deliver potentially "bad" news is when there is something else that will mitigate it.
    Fans, starved for football, were distracted from the negatives by finally having a dose of what they wanted to see...their team.
    It was a nice PR move.

    "snowinapril]How" wrote:
    [quote]

    Pros:
    It strengthens their QB position.
    McNabb may or may not shine this year - after all, he did get benched last season.
    Vick puts another weapon into the perennially depleted arsenal of the Eagles.

    The only Con is the PETA contingent and how they may rally against this and potentially create a ditraction.

    "snowinapril]Please" wrote:
    [quote]

    The only two players truly negatively affected are Sage and Tarvaris.
    And, truthfully, both of them know that they aren't anywhere near Favre in ability.
    The rest of the team will quickly solidify around Favre because THEY recognize that too.
    Face it, Favre = Best Chance To Win.


    Bobby Wade might like Tarvaris personally, but as a professional, he wants to win.
    Shiancoe - another verbal Jackson supporter - is already on board with Favre.


    And assuming a conspiracy to avoid TC (Which I doubt), honesty on Chiller's part would have only led to bad blood as playes would have basically had their faces shoved in preferential treatment.
    If this was a big lie, they handled it the best way they could for the sake of the team.

    "snowinapril]Please" wrote:

    Other sports?
    How about the NCAA?
    How many athletes are paid under the table?
    How many are ushered through their tests, or given easy classes to gain or maintain eligibility?
    Yet, year after year we turn a blind eye to it unless it's shoved in our faces.
    Then we all thump our chests and DEMAND punishment for the guilty...when all their REALLY guilty of is being caught.

    Face it, deception is fine...getting CAUGHT is what bothers people.

    good points

    On the last one, Coach Callipari just got his butt handed to him with out actually getting caught.
    The school gets the punishment and he continues to go on running shady tactics of deception at yet another school.
    Hopefully where he is now, he won't have to do as much.






  8. #18
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "snowinapril" wrote:
    [quote]
    "Caine" wrote:
    [quote]
    "snowinapril]Is" wrote:
    [quote]

    To a point...yes.


    A football team is a business.
    Their goal is to win.
    Sometimes, winning requires less than full disclosure.

    "snowinapril]Please" wrote:
    [quote]

    The best time to deliver potentially "bad" news is when there is something else that will mitigate it.
    Fans, starved for football, were distracted from the negatives by finally having a dose of what they wanted to see...their team.
    It was a nice PR move.

    "snowinapril]How" wrote:
    [quote]

    Pros:
    It strengthens their QB position.
    McNabb may or may not shine this year - after all, he did get benched last season.
    Vick puts another weapon into the perennially depleted arsenal of the Eagles.

    The only Con is the PETA contingent and how they may rally against this and potentially create a ditraction.

    "snowinapril]Please" wrote:

    The only two players truly negatively affected are Sage and Tarvaris.
    And, truthfully, both of them know that they aren't anywhere near Favre in ability.
    The rest of the team will quickly solidify around Favre because THEY recognize that too.
    Face it, Favre = Best Chance To Win.


    Bobby Wade might like Tarvaris personally, but as a professional, he wants to win.
    Shiancoe - another verbal Jackson supporter - is already on board with Favre.


    And assuming a conspiracy to avoid TC (Which I doubt), honesty on Chiller's part would have only led to bad blood as playes would have basically had their faces shoved in preferential treatment.
    If this was a big lie, they handled it the best way they could for the sake of the team.

    "snowinapril]Please" wrote:

    Other sports?
    How about the NCAA?
    How many athletes are paid under the table?
    How many are ushered through their tests, or given easy classes to gain or maintain eligibility?
    Yet, year after year we turn a blind eye to it unless it's shoved in our faces.
    Then we all thump our chests and DEMAND punishment for the guilty...when all their REALLY guilty of is being caught.

    Face it, deception is fine...getting CAUGHT is what bothers people.

    good points

    On the last one, Coach Callipari just got his butt handed to him with out actually getting caught.
    The school gets the punishment and he continues to go on running shady tactics of deception at yet another school.

    Hopefully where he is now, he won't have to do as much.
    The kicker in these cases - and it always irks me - is that the ATHLETES get a free pass on all of it.
    Heck, Rose is making MILLIONS while the school that put him in that position is getting reamed.
    I wish the athletes who took the shortcuts would get a bit more hammered...it just seems that the blame and the benefits aren't fairly distributed.

    Caine

  9. #19
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "Freya" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    I completely understand the reasoning for Childress not telling anyone about Favre.
    I just don't agree with it.

    I think this was a very poor decision by the coaching staff and ownership to allow a player to basically skip all of training camp.
    I think Florio hit it in the head;
    The only semi-plausible approach was a renewed commitment to retirement, with the express (and top-secret) understanding that the Tuesday after the preseason opener would be the day Favre officially unretires.
    I agree with that assessment completely.

    I am big into team dynamics.
    People that work with me know that I stress team and social interaction both in and out of the workplace.
    To let someone, no matter how good they are, skip training camp because they don't want to go is a poor move IMHO.
    Would Favre have gotten anything out of training camp?
    Not really.
    But it would have set a standard for the younger players, who NEED to be there.


    But in the end it wasn't my decision.
    So I make my feelings regarding the coaching staff and Childress known, and I move on.
    It doesn't take away (much) from the fact that we are still a much better team now, and for good or bad, winning solves everything.
    And I am excited to see Favre open the game in purple tonight!
    I agree with this, mostly. I disagree with Favre not gaining anything positive out of TC. If he cannot gain anything from TC then he truly does not belong on the field of play. Does anyone truly believe that there comes a point where you have nothing left to learn? I absolutely believe that you can never learn enough or even learn it all, even in only one specialized area. And most especially where your body is involved to a great extent. I know this from my training in Ballet for many many years. He is coming off a surgery where I can guarantee you he will have to make adjustments. He will be surrounded by players he has never played with before. These kinds of things require a substantial amount of "learning" to perform at the highest levels. In addition to that, skipping TC sets back the gluing of each unit to the other units to form a cohesive team totally in sync with each other. IF, it was known all along that Favre would come after camp, then I have even less trust in Childress than I did before. Aside from the fact that this sets the team back, it also corrupts the trust the players have in their coaches. Whatever reasons they had for lying, I can't think of a single one that can be considered valid. Not one.
    Freya, the trust factor is the biggest thing to me.
    It has bothered me since the signing.


    The closed book comment bothers me and adds to the distrust.

    But when it comes down to it, the best players play.
    It has always been that way.
    We had a kid on our basketball team in high school.
    He got in trouble, coach said he would not start, he didn't start, but was in the game in like 1 minute.
    Best players play........


    As far as coming to camp, if he was actually throwing in MS and then going home sitting down and looking at the play book nightly without having to mingle and answer stupid questions over and over and over and over, I think he might actually have benefited by staying at home.
    Mooch said it best in his little interview
    by VEN.
    Basically he said that Brett was out there today (the first day) and said that he didn't miss a beat.
    The players have nuances that can be ironed out in the next 3 weeks the rest of it is old hat.


    EDIT:
    Losing will break down a team faster than anything,
    the distrust is fuel and losing is the match, the fire extinguisher is winning.
    Bad play by TJ would have ignited a good blaze this season, it would have started a blame game.

    About the lying, you can't not include the Wilf's in this, but somehow Chilly gets all the credit in this lie.

  10. #20
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "Freya" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    I completely understand the reasoning for Childress not telling anyone about Favre.
    I just don't agree with it.

    I think this was a very poor decision by the coaching staff and ownership to allow a player to basically skip all of training camp.
    I think Florio hit it in the head;
    The only semi-plausible approach was a renewed commitment to retirement, with the express (and top-secret) understanding that the Tuesday after the preseason opener would be the day Favre officially unretires.
    I agree with that assessment completely.

    I am big into team dynamics.
    People that work with me know that I stress team and social interaction both in and out of the workplace.
    To let someone, no matter how good they are, skip training camp because they don't want to go is a poor move IMHO.
    Would Favre have gotten anything out of training camp?
    Not really.
    But it would have set a standard for the younger players, who NEED to be there.


    But in the end it wasn't my decision.
    So I make my feelings regarding the coaching staff and Childress known, and I move on.
    It doesn't take away (much) from the fact that we are still a much better team now, and for good or bad, winning solves everything.
    And I am excited to see Favre open the game in purple tonight!
    I agree with this, mostly. I disagree with Favre not gaining anything positive out of TC. If he cannot gain anything from TC then he truly does not belong on the field of play. Does anyone truly believe that there comes a point where you have nothing left to learn? I absolutely believe that you can never learn enough or even learn it all, even in only one specialized area. And most especially where your body is involved to a great extent. I know this from my training in Ballet for many many years. He is coming off a surgery where I can guarantee you he will have to make adjustments. He will be surrounded by players he has never played with before. These kinds of things require a substantial amount of "learning" to perform at the highest levels. In addition to that, skipping TC sets back the gluing of each unit to the other units to form a cohesive team totally in sync with each other. IF, it was known all along that Favre would come after camp, then I have even less trust in Childress than I did before. Aside from the fact that this sets the team back, it also corrupts the trust the players have in their coaches. Whatever reasons they had for lying, I can't think of a single one that can be considered valid. Not one.
    I don't dispute that.
    But the impact of training camp lessons considerably as players send more time in the system.
    I think the PH lost more from missing two days of training camp than Farve did by missing the whole thing.

    But HAD Favre been there, I think that the benefit to the younger players would have made it worthwhile.

    As far as not trusting Childress - don't shoot the messenger.
    This was a business decision that involved everyone from the head coach on up.
    It isn't about being trustworthy or corrupt.
    It was a calculated business move.
    I understanding their reasoning for it, but disagree with the decision.
    Then again, I am an engineer making 50X less than Favre is right now, so who am I say I know better...
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

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