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  1. #1
    snowinapril's Avatar
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    Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    Is it alright for coaching staff to lie to its fans and their players?
    Is it lying if it is tactical?

    Please comment on the Vick signing and how it was sprung on everyone and so readily done so while they were playing their first preseason game.

    How does it the Vick signing affect the Eagles team, pros and cons?

    Please comment on the Favre and Childress conundrum.
    How does it play out on the psyche of the players on the team?
    What if Childress would have been honest about the Favre signing happening after TC, assuming this was a set up?

    Please bring up other so called strategical deceptions from other sports also that may have been forgotten about?

    Please do not post your thoughts on how Vick doesn't belong in the NFL.
    There are other threads to do so in.... use the search function.

    Please do not post your thoughts about how Favre should stay on his farm and out of MN.
    There are other threads to do so in.... use the search function.


  2. #2
    The Dropper's Avatar
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    Is it tactical? I have no problem with the management of NFL teams lying to players and fans if they genuinely need to lie about such things in order for a plan to come together. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see how lying to fans and players about Ron Mexico or Brett Favre helps anything.

    I guess in the case of Brett Favre they may have lied because if it didn't work out, then you'd have some pretty pissed off starting/backup QB's. But that has pretty much happened anyways, so obviously if they were lying, it wasn't very effective.

    In Mexico's case, I just don't see the point of lying at all. The guy is a backup, McNabb wanted him there, so he isn't butthurt, and the fans that object to him being there would have objected either way.

    Now, the kind of deceptions I don't mind from my team's management is faking or lying about injuries, or any in-game deceptive maneuvers. For example, pretending like you're tipping your hand or giving away your play-calling signals on purpose and then doing something completely different. These are things that might actually give you an advantage against your opponent.

  3. #3
    snowinapril's Avatar
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?



    [size=13pt]Favre courtship proves we've all been had -- again[/size]
    QB's arrival in Minnesota far more about calculation than serendipity
    http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2009-08-19/favre-courtship-proves-weve-all-been-had-again
    by Mike Florio


    The whole thing would make far more (but not complete) sense if Chilly and Favre would admit they talked over the past three weeks regarding scenarios in which Favre would ride in on a white plane and save the Vikings' season — and in turn, Chilly's job.
    Another Florio article, this one seems a stretch.....

    [size=13pt]Source: Donovan McNabb isn't happy with Vick acquisition[/size]
    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/08/13/source-donovan-mcnabb-isnt-happy-with-vick-acquisition/
    By Mike Florio

    As folks in Philly begin to process the reality -- which conveniently was slipped through the five hole during a preseason home game -- that Mike Vick is the newest member of the Eagles, most people are assuming that current starting quarterback Donovan McNabb has given the deal his personal seal of approval.

    According to a league source with intimate knowledge of the dynamics within the organization, McNabb isn't pleased with the development.

    But McNabb can't say anything about it for now, due in part to the fact that the Eagles gave him a money-for-nothing contract adjustment and otherwise spent a lot of cash and first-day picks to improve the offense, at McNabb's urging.

  4. #4
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    The Michael Vick signing will be measured in the future, based on his play on the field and his actions off the field.
    If he becomes a good teammate and contributes on the field, much forgiveness will be given as long as he doesn't do anything else off the field that gives even a hint of bad behavior.

    How much he adds to the Eagles is a big question mark in my mind.
    He's been out of the game for 2 years, and his play at QB will be very limited due to McNabb.
    However, there are other ways he can contribute on offense.


    To me, he's an interesting story.
    I don't have an issue with how he was signed.
    It seems he was signed as much to show the league's desire to give second chances as much as it was to try and improve a team.

  5. #5
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "The" wrote:
    Is it tactical? I have no problem with the management of NFL teams lying to players and fans if they genuinely need to lie about such things in order for a plan to come together. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see how lying to fans and players about Ron Mexico or Brett Favre helps anything.

    I guess in the case of Brett Favre they may have lied because if it didn't work out, then you'd have some pretty pissed off starting/backup QB's. But that has pretty much happened anyways, so obviously if they were lying, it wasn't very effective.

    In Mexico's case, I just don't see the point of lying at all. The guy is a backup, McNabb wanted him there, so he isn't butthurt, and the fans that object to him being there would have objected either way.

    Now, the kind of deceptions I don't mind from my team's management is faking or lying about injuries, or any in-game deceptive maneuvers. For example, pretending like you're tipping your hand or giving away your play-calling signals on purpose and then doing something completely different. These are things that might actually give you an advantage against your opponent.
    I guess with the Vick signing, it wasn't so much deception, it was just a surprise.
    Not many teams will tell others who they are looking to sign.
    I really didn't see the Eagles wanting him.
    Is the owner and coach actually planning on possibly having him as the starter in the next couple of years? Are they sick of McNabb?
    We will have to wait and see.
    I think that chances are low.
    The intent of the signing is what is intriguing to me, just to help the guy is what it seems like but teams don't pay someone millions to bring them back socially.

    With Chilly and Favre.......
    Chilly couldn't tell anyone, player, media or fans.
    There would have been so many questions and it would have ruined TC.
    "How do you feel about Favre coming" would have been asked of every player in every interview the whole camp.
    Chilly had to put a "closed book" spin on it.
    If he would have said anything, it would have damaged the intensity of camp, kind of like "why are we here" when our QB is not.


    Both Vick and Favre deceptions were made (known) from the top down.
    You can't make those decision with out the owners signing off.
    The Favre signing was planned through and through, they knew exactly what was going to happen and when he was coming.
    The Vick signing was so much deception as it was just a shock that the Eagles were interested, which seems normal with how things are done.


    Other sports examples?
    I can't really think of a specific.
    I do think that sometimes teams say that so and so is not on the trading block and then trade them.
    It seems like a betrayal to the fans.
    KG being traded was something that seemed like deception.
    So did the Moss trade.

    I think that sometimes the players realize more so than the fans that this is a business.
    It is very emotional for us as fans.



  6. #6
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    What the hell?
    I saw an interview with McNabb where he said he one of the guys who was lobbying to get Vick on the team...these articles make no sense.

  7. #7
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "tastywaves" wrote:
    The Michael Vick signing will be measured in the future, based on his play on the field and his actions off the field.
    If he becomes a good teammate and contributes on the field, much forgiveness will be given as long as he doesn't do anything else off the field that gives even a hint of bad behavior.

    How much he adds to the Eagles is a big question mark in my mind.
    He's been out of the game for 2 years, and his play at QB will be very limited due to McNabb.
    However, there are other ways he can contribute on offense.


    To me, he's an interesting story.
    I don't have an issue with how he was signed.
    It seems he was signed as much to show the league's desire to give second chances as much as it was to try and improve a team.
    I think that Chilly and Favre will receive forgiveness from the nay-sayers with success on the field.


    Somehow people that are upset aren't putting much of any blame on the Wilf's, but putting it directly on BC and BF.

    I think the deception in the Vick signing like you said will be know in the future and it will be "is Vick deceiving everyone?"
    That will be the question that needs to be answered.

  8. #8
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "BloodyHorns82" wrote:
    What the hell?
    I saw an interview with McNabb where he said he one of the guys who was lobbying to get Vick on the team...these articles make no sense.
    What a mind-floop!

    Sometime you have to add these writers trying to stir the pot into the deception of how these things play out.

    I thought Glazer's report of the unnamed Viking players saying it was a done deal was a BS report.
    Many on here did and it came to be true the next day.
    LOL!

  9. #9
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    I completely understand the reasoning for Childress not telling anyone about Favre.
    I just don't agree with it.

    I think this was a very poor decision by the coaching staff and ownership to allow a player to basically skip all of training camp.
    I think Florio hit it in the head;
    The only semi-plausible approach was a renewed commitment to retirement, with the express (and top-secret) understanding that the Tuesday after the preseason opener would be the day Favre officially unretires.
    I agree with that assessment completely.

    I am big into team dynamics.
    People that work with me know that I stress team and social interaction both in and out of the workplace.
    To let someone, no matter how good they are, skip training camp because they don't want to go is a poor move IMHO.
    Would Favre have gotten anything out of training camp?
    Not really.
    But it would have set a standard for the younger players, who NEED to be there.

    But in the end it wasn't my decision.
    So I make my feelings regarding the coaching staff and Childress known, and I move on.
    It doesn't take away (much) from the fact that we are still a much better team now, and for good or bad, winning solves everything.
    And I am excited to see Favre open the game in purple tonight!
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  10. #10
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    Re: Deception, Secrecy and/or Psychology?

    "snowinapril]Is" wrote:
    [quote]

    To a point...yes.


    A football team is a business.
    Their goal is to win.
    Sometimes, winning requires less than full disclosure.

    "snowinapril]Please" wrote:
    [quote]

    The best time to deliver potentially "bad" news is when there is something else that will mitigate it.
    Fans, starved for football, were distracted from the negatives by finally having a dose of what they wanted to see...their team.
    It was a nice PR move.

    "snowinapril]How" wrote:
    [quote]

    Pros:
    It strengthens their QB position.
    McNabb may or may not shine this year - after all, he did get benched last season.
    Vick puts another weapon into the perennially depleted arsenal of the Eagles.

    The only Con is the PETA contingent and how they may rally against this and potentially create a ditraction.

    "snowinapril]Please" wrote:

    The only two players truly negatively affected are Sage and Tarvaris.
    And, truthfully, both of them know that they aren't anywhere near Favre in ability.
    The rest of the team will quickly solidify around Favre because THEY recognize that too.
    Face it, Favre = Best Chance To Win.


    Bobby Wade might like Tarvaris personally, but as a professional, he wants to win.
    Shiancoe - another verbal Jackson supporter - is already on board with Favre.


    And assuming a conspiracy to avoid TC (Which I doubt), honesty on Chiller's part would have only led to bad blood as playes would have basically had their faces shoved in preferential treatment.
    If this was a big lie, they handled it the best way they could for the sake of the team.

    [quote author=snowinapril]Please bring up other so called strategical deceptions from other sports also that may have been forgotten about?
    Other sports?
    How about the NCAA?
    How many athletes are paid under the table?
    How many are ushered through their tests, or given easy classes to gain or maintain eligibility?
    Yet, year after year we turn a blind eye to it unless it's shoved in our faces.
    Then we all thump our chests and DEMAND punishment for the guilty...when all their REALLY guilty of is being caught.

    Face it, deception is fine...getting CAUGHT is what bothers people.


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