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  1. #111
    kevoncox's Avatar
    kevoncox is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Dallas Cowboys cheerleader causes controversy by sporting blackface!

    "tarkenton10" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Interesting.

    If she actually went in blackface, I would understand the complaints.
    Blackface has a long theatrical history, and some fairly strong ties to a racist view (although there were actually African American actors who were very successful as blackface artists).

    However, she didn't go in black face.
    In face, it wasn't even close.
    She wore black make up and went as a specific celebrity.
    Anyone who refers to this as "blackface" needs to read up on the history of it.
    This has nothing to do (IMHO) with racism or stereotypes, and everything to do with Halloween.
    So if she said, I was going as a black person (not Lil' Wayne) would this still not be offensive?
    I've read up plenty about blackface and it's history worldwide, however, my point was that there is still people who would identify that as black face. Just like some people see the confederate flag and attribute the hatred and bigotry that that era represented. Southern whites however, see the confederate flag as a symbol of their history and the family members they lost in the civil war. Same image, different meanings. Again, you should never tell someone what can and cannot offend them. You've never walked a day in their shoe.
    I understand what you are saying about the confederate flag and the differing meanings associated with it, and I respect and agree with that.
    This, however, is at least slightly different.


    As I am sure you know, Blackface is theatrical makeup style that was used in the 1800's and early 1900's to portray a stereotypical black person.
    It was noted by using no make up or white make up around the mouth to exaggerate the lips and usually included tousled hair and ragged clothing that mimicked the styles of high society at the time (i.e. top hat with the top punched out, etc).
    Blackface actors and comedians used existing racism and stereotypes as staples in their routine, giving in to the "Oh Lordy Lordy Who's Gonna Help Us Blackies" type of rhetoric.
    The routines made black people look uneducated and bumbling, and completely reliant on white society.
    While the original intent was actually supposed to be satire and parody (much like Carrol O'Connor did with Archie Bunker), this intent was quickly lost on the masses, and it spiraled into a negative connotation of the descendants of African slaves in America.
    Blackface is very offensive to many people, not just African Americans.

    In that light, this is not even close to being a blackface routine.
    First, she did not even come close to the makeup style that it gets its name from.
    Did she have dark makeup on to change to color of her skin? Yes, but that is about as close as it gets to the theatrical genre.
    She did not have the exaggerated features, mussed hair, or third gen clothes that have much more to do with the social stigma.
    Saying that she was in blackface just because she wore dark makeup is the same as saying Bozo the Clown was a mime just because he wore white makeup on his face.

    Second, she did not dress up to embody a social stereotype.
    She was dressing up as a very specific person, who happened to be black.
    You asked if I would think it was more offensive if she simply dressed up as an anonymous black person, and I would have to say yes.
    Impersonating a celebrity is one thing.
    Impersonating an entire culture is quite another.
    When Frank Caliendo impersonates Charles Barkley, it is funny.
    If he just dressed up as a black man and began telling jokes about the culture in general, it would not be.

    Finally, I did not, nor would I ever, tell someone what can and cannot offend them.
    It is a free country, people can be offended if they want to.
    But if they are taking offense because of their own ignorance, then I will take every opportunity to educate them.
    And I hope you don't interpret this as any kind of racist comment on my part.
    I realize you don't know me, my family, or my situations in life, but I can guarantee you that I am solidly against racism and discrimination on all levels.
    Unfortunately, overreaction to incidents like this does more to hurt the cause than it does to help it.
    It reinforces negative sentiment among external cultures while promoting a self-defeating victimization role withing the African American society itself.
    Thanks for this post, I found it enlightening.
    1) Nothing you said struck me as racist. You don't have to agree with me for me to value your input.
    2) Your point about what she dressed up as is a valid one. Now that it is known what she was going as will make it ok for some people. Not all. For instance, If you were to dress up in a historically accurate Nazi uniform as Hitler, some Jewish people may still be offended by it. Forget that I compared Lil' Wayne and his Coonish antics to Hitler, focus on the fact that it is offensive unless the explanation of who she was trying to be is made. Again if she just went as A black guy.....I would be pissed, the fact that she went as just Lil' Weezy, doesn't offend me. It's weird.

    3) Your description of Blackface is accurate. However, what would black face look like today had the "artform" continue to evolve. My belief is that it would look similar to what this young lady has on(minus the $5 tanning lotion) Blackface has been frozen in time due to it's offensive nature. The portrayal of blacks by whites was how they saw them at that time. Wouldn't this be more likely to be what modern version of blackface would look like?

    When it's all said and done, i rather enjoyed your post.
    I think that trying to predict how something will evolve like your explanation of the black face is an act of futility.
    I'd rather people just realize how much power you put into that word.
    I know what it meant back in the day but the more you are offended by this word the more power you give it, and the more you give anyone who weilds it on you.
    I really think that the best solution for that word is for as many people as possible should have a learned response; IGNORE the offensive word.
    Let it fade into history!!
    Until that happens in reality anyone has control over you all they have to do if they want to is use that word to get the response they know will come.
    Imagine if you just ignored the word as hard as it may be but it would diminsh and defuse a person who is certainly not a pillar of society.
    I am definitly not preaching I do not know how someone would feel being called such a name but I have some students that have said some really nasty thing and the fact that I remained calm and did not give them the satisfaction of their perceived response did suprise them.
    And in many instances I felt the victor in that psychological struggle.
    I agree. I can only tell you that you are conditioned to react a certain way. Your entire life you have learned to never let someone call you that. It's very hard to break. Personally I don't react online when people throw the word around but I have never been called it to my face. Not sure how I would react.

  2. #112
    tarkenton10's Avatar
    tarkenton10 is offline Star Spokesman
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    Re: Dallas Cowboys cheerleader causes controversy by sporting blackface!

    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "tarkenton10" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    [quote author=NodakPaul link=topic=54087.msg1015777#msg1015777 date=1257896095]
    Interesting.

    If she actually went in blackface, I would understand the complaints.
    Blackface has a long theatrical history, and some fairly strong ties to a racist view (although there were actually African American actors who were very successful as blackface artists).

    However, she didn't go in black face.
    In face, it wasn't even close.
    She wore black make up and went as a specific celebrity.
    Anyone who refers to this as "blackface" needs to read up on the history of it.
    This has nothing to do (IMHO) with racism or stereotypes, and everything to do with Halloween.
    So if she said, I was going as a black person (not Lil' Wayne) would this still not be offensive?
    I've read up plenty about blackface and it's history worldwide, however, my point was that there is still people who would identify that as black face. Just like some people see the confederate flag and attribute the hatred and bigotry that that era represented. Southern whites however, see the confederate flag as a symbol of their history and the family members they lost in the civil war. Same image, different meanings. Again, you should never tell someone what can and cannot offend them. You've never walked a day in their shoe.
    I understand what you are saying about the confederate flag and the differing meanings associated with it, and I respect and agree with that.
    This, however, is at least slightly different.


    As I am sure you know, Blackface is theatrical makeup style that was used in the 1800's and early 1900's to portray a stereotypical black person.
    It was noted by using no make up or white make up around the mouth to exaggerate the lips and usually included tousled hair and ragged clothing that mimicked the styles of high society at the time (i.e. top hat with the top punched out, etc).
    Blackface actors and comedians used existing racism and stereotypes as staples in their routine, giving in to the "Oh Lordy Lordy Who's Gonna Help Us Blackies" type of rhetoric.
    The routines made black people look uneducated and bumbling, and completely reliant on white society.
    While the original intent was actually supposed to be satire and parody (much like Carrol O'Connor did with Archie Bunker), this intent was quickly lost on the masses, and it spiraled into a negative connotation of the descendants of African slaves in America.
    Blackface is very offensive to many people, not just African Americans.

    In that light, this is not even close to being a blackface routine.
    First, she did not even come close to the makeup style that it gets its name from.
    Did she have dark makeup on to change to color of her skin? Yes, but that is about as close as it gets to the theatrical genre.
    She did not have the exaggerated features, mussed hair, or third gen clothes that have much more to do with the social stigma.
    Saying that she was in blackface just because she wore dark makeup is the same as saying Bozo the Clown was a mime just because he wore white makeup on his face.

    Second, she did not dress up to embody a social stereotype.
    She was dressing up as a very specific person, who happened to be black.
    You asked if I would think it was more offensive if she simply dressed up as an anonymous black person, and I would have to say yes.
    Impersonating a celebrity is one thing.
    Impersonating an entire culture is quite another.
    When Frank Caliendo impersonates Charles Barkley, it is funny.
    If he just dressed up as a black man and began telling jokes about the culture in general, it would not be.

    Finally, I did not, nor would I ever, tell someone what can and cannot offend them.
    It is a free country, people can be offended if they want to.
    But if they are taking offense because of their own ignorance, then I will take every opportunity to educate them.
    And I hope you don't interpret this as any kind of racist comment on my part.
    I realize you don't know me, my family, or my situations in life, but I can guarantee you that I am solidly against racism and discrimination on all levels.
    Unfortunately, overreaction to incidents like this does more to hurt the cause than it does to help it.
    It reinforces negative sentiment among external cultures while promoting a self-defeating victimization role withing the African American society itself.
    Thanks for this post, I found it enlightening.
    1) Nothing you said struck me as racist. You don't have to agree with me for me to value your input.
    2) Your point about what she dressed up as is a valid one. Now that it is known what she was going as will make it ok for some people. Not all. For instance, If you were to dress up in a historically accurate Nazi uniform as Hitler, some Jewish people may still be offended by it. Forget that I compared Lil' Wayne and his Coonish antics to Hitler, focus on the fact that it is offensive unless the explanation of who she was trying to be is made. Again if she just went as A black guy.....I would be pissed, the fact that she went as just Lil' Weezy, doesn't offend me. It's weird.

    3) Your description of Blackface is accurate. However, what would black face look like today had the "artform" continue to evolve. My belief is that it would look similar to what this young lady has on(minus the $5 tanning lotion) Blackface has been frozen in time due to it's offensive nature. The portrayal of blacks by whites was how they saw them at that time. Wouldn't this be more likely to be what modern version of blackface would look like?

    When it's all said and done, i rather enjoyed your post.
    I think that trying to predict how something will evolve like your explanation of the black face is an act of futility.
    I'd rather people just realize how much power you put into that word.
    I know what it meant back in the day but the more you are offended by this word the more power you give it, and the more you give anyone who weilds it on you.
    I really think that the best solution for that word is for as many people as possible should have a learned response; IGNORE the offensive word.
    Let it fade into history!!
    Until that happens in reality anyone has control over you all they have to do if they want to is use that word to get the response they know will come.
    Imagine if you just ignored the word as hard as it may be but it would diminsh and defuse a person who is certainly not a pillar of society.
    I am definitly not preaching I do not know how someone would feel being called such a name but I have some students that have said some really nasty thing and the fact that I remained calm and did not give them the satisfaction of their perceived response did suprise them.
    And in many instances I felt the victor in that psychological struggle.
    I agree. I can only tell you that you are conditioned to react a certain way. Your entire life you have learned to never let someone call you that. It's very hard to break. Personally I don't react online when people throw the word around but I have never been called it to my face. Not sure how I would react.
    [/quote]

    As I said I wouldn't know the response but there has to be a conserted effort the part of the African American community to down play incidents rather than cause a firestorm in my view.
    You are fanning the flames and giving power to the people who use the word.
    Empowering the very people you should be trying to combat by diminishing their power and prestige not giving them a forum to spew their beliefs.


    There s only two things stopping you - fear and common sense!! The Truth you CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!

  3. #113
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    Re: Dallas Cowboys cheerleader causes controversy by sporting blackface!

    "happy" wrote:
    "tarkenton10" wrote:


    How about White men can't Jump!!
    I couldn't imagine if they used a stereotype for a movie that was something steroetypical of a blackman.
    But everyone can dump on the white man and Christians!!
    Just the way society is nowadays.


    As a white man myself, I can't get mad about that type of stuff. A white man's inability to jump is a stereotype that holds no water against stereotypes of other races nationalities that are exploited. White men have so much more power and perks society offers. Make no mistake about it, white men are on top of the food chain and have the least to complain about when it comes to societies injustices.

    I feel I may have opened another can of worms.
    :P
    You may be able to make that point as an American.
    But e careful how you are making very general statements.
    This is undoubtedly true in America and most parts of Europe....but white doesnt mean power in all parts of the world.


    Also, to take it one step further I have to disagree to a certain extent.
    Because "power" is a relative term and can mean different things to different people, I would say that minorities have much more "power" than white people in this country in some aspects.
    Take the person you are quoting about "White Men Can't Jump".
    He is simply stating that because of the "power" that minorities have over the issue of political correctness a movie could not be released today that played on a stereotype of a minority.
    It would be publicly ripped to shreds.
    However, because political correctness rests firmly in the hands of minorities it is much harder for a white person to try to fight its own stereotypes in the media.

  4. #114
    josdin00's Avatar
    josdin00 is offline Ring of Fame
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    Re: Dallas Cowboys cheerleader causes controversy by sporting blackface!

    Speaking of stereotypes and racism .... (I hope you don't mind if I inject a little humor into what has been a great discussion.)

    Titus Apologizes

    I don't know of any other comic that could pull off this routine. It is so potentially offensive, but his timing and delivery are perfect... and funny as hell.

  5. #115
    tarkenton10's Avatar
    tarkenton10 is offline Star Spokesman
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    Re: Dallas Cowboys cheerleader causes controversy by sporting blackface!

    "purple_glory_dreamer" wrote:
    "happy" wrote:
    "tarkenton10" wrote:


    How about White men can't Jump!!
    I couldn't imagine if they used a stereotype for a movie that was something steroetypical of a blackman.
    But everyone can dump on the white man and Christians!!
    Just the way society is nowadays.


    As a white man myself, I can't get mad about that type of stuff. A white man's inability to jump is a stereotype that holds no water against stereotypes of other races nationalities that are exploited. White men have so much more power and perks society offers. Make no mistake about it, white men are on top of the food chain and have the least to complain about when it comes to societies injustices.

    I feel I may have opened another can of worms.
    :P
    You may be able to make that point as an American.
    But e careful how you are making very general statements.
    This is undoubtedly true in America and most parts of Europe....but white doesnt mean power in all parts of the world.


    Also, to take it one step further I have to disagree to a certain extent.
    Because "power" is a relative term and can mean different things to different people, I would say that minorities have much more "power" than white people in this country in some aspects.
    Take the person you are quoting about "White Men Can't Jump".
    He is simply stating that because of the "power" that minorities have over the issue of political correctness a movie could not be released today that played on a stereotype of a minority.
    It would be publicly ripped to shreds.
    However, because political correctness rests firmly in the hands of minorities it is much harder for a white person to try to fight its own stereotypes in the media.
    Excellent point!!
    PC is definitely a power tool sometimes used to bash over the heads of people who disagree with a certain point of view.
    Definitely used in the health care debate, many [pollitical people] are trying to say if you disagree with the health care issue you are a racist and hate Obama, definitely not the case.
    His skin color has nothing to so with his attempted [legislation].
    He is receiving the same treatment that the Clintons received, I would say that is progress in America he is being scrutinized for a [proposed] idea just as his white predecessor was for a [proposed] idea.

    Edits by josdin00 - most of us know where you stand, pollitically, Tark, but there still is a no politics rule on this board.

    There s only two things stopping you - fear and common sense!! The Truth you CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!

  6. #116
    Join Date
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    Re: Dallas Cowboys cheerleader causes controversy by sporting blackface!

    "josdin00" wrote:
    Speaking of stereotypes and racism .... (I hope you don't mind if I inject a little humor into what has been a great discussion.)

    Titus Apologizes

    I don't know of any other comic that could pull off this routine. It is so potentially offensive, but his timing and delivery are perfect... and funny as hell.
    That was hilarious!!

  7. #117
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    Re: Dallas Cowboys cheerleader causes controversy by sporting blackface!

    Excellent point!!
    PC is definitely a power tool sometimes used to bash over the heads of people who disagree with a certain point of view.
    Definitely used in the health care debate, many [pollitical people] are trying to say if you disagree with the health care issue you are a racist and hate Obama, definitely not the case.
    His skin color has nothing to so with his attempted [legislation].
    He is receiving the same treatment that the Clintons received, I would say that is progress in America he is being scrutinized for a [proposed] idea just as his white predecessor was for a [proposed] idea.

    Edits by josdin00 - most of us know where you stand, pollitically, Tark, but there still is a no politics rule on this board.
    Posted on: Today at 10:10:42Posted by: josdin00
    ;D ;D ;D ;D LOL talk about perfect timing and thread
    ;D ;D ;D

  8. #118
    tarkenton10's Avatar
    tarkenton10 is offline Star Spokesman
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    Re: Dallas Cowboys cheerleader causes controversy by sporting blackface!

    "tarkenton10" wrote:
    "purple_glory_dreamer" wrote:
    "happy" wrote:
    "tarkenton10" wrote:


    How about White men can't Jump!!
    I couldn't imagine if they used a stereotype for a movie that was something steroetypical of a blackman.
    But everyone can dump on the white man and Christians!!
    Just the way society is nowadays.


    As a white man myself, I can't get mad about that type of stuff. A white man's inability to jump is a stereotype that holds no water against stereotypes of other races nationalities that are exploited. White men have so much more power and perks society offers. Make no mistake about it, white men are on top of the food chain and have the least to complain about when it comes to societies injustices.

    I feel I may have opened another can of worms.
    :P
    You may be able to make that point as an American.
    But e careful how you are making very general statements.
    This is undoubtedly true in America and most parts of Europe....but white doesnt mean power in all parts of the world.


    Also, to take it one step further I have to disagree to a certain extent.
    Because "power" is a relative term and can mean different things to different people, I would say that minorities have much more "power" than white people in this country in some aspects.
    Take the person you are quoting about "White Men Can't Jump".
    He is simply stating that because of the "power" that minorities have over the issue of political correctness a movie could not be released today that played on a stereotype of a minority.
    It would be publicly ripped to shreds.
    However, because political correctness rests firmly in the hands of minorities it is much harder for a white person to try to fight its own stereotypes in the media.
    Excellent point!!
    PC is definitely a power tool sometimes used to bash over the heads of people who disagree with a certain point of view.
    Definitely used in the health care debate, many [pollitical people] are trying to say if you disagree with the health care issue you are a racist and hate Obama, definitely not the case.
    His skin color has nothing to so with his attempted [legislation].
    He is receiving the same treatment that the Clintons received, I would say that is progress in America he is being scrutinized for a [proposed] idea just as his white predecessor was for a [proposed] idea.

    Edits by josdin00 - most of us know where you stand, pollitically, Tark, but there still is a no politics rule on this board.
    Not meant to be politcial, just pointing out a case where the landscape of America has changed but people still use PC to drown out your point of view!
    I made no point of the issues in health care or the poitical fallout for the idea.
    I used it has an example that shows the use of PC to quiet any opposition to their point of view!!
    Please undertsand the context as it was not used in a political way!

    There s only two things stopping you - fear and common sense!! The Truth you CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!

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