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  1. #71
    sleepagent is offline Hall of Famer
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    Re: Culpepper cautions QB Trent Green

    "midgensa" wrote:
    "sleepagent" wrote:
    "midgensa" wrote:
    I still don't understand all the hate for C-Pep. I think that it sucks the way he made stupid public comments on his way out of town ... and I supported the trade, but I never supported haing Brad "No Arm" Johnson as our guy.
    Look, simply put, at worst C-Pep is the fourth best QB ever to play for the Vikes
    and he is probably the second-best to wear the Purple and Gold Tarkenton a lock at No. 1 and maybe legit arguments could be made for Tommy Kramer and Randall Cunningham). He was a three-time pro-bowler in five years as a starter, accounted for 40 TDs in a season two times, went to an NFC Championship game, won a playoff game in Green Bay, threw the third most TDs in Vikings history, third most passing yards and had the best QB rating. He unfortunately was a .500 QB when it came to winning, but was severly hurt by the 2001 season in the tank and the 2002 season of rebuilding in the first year under Tice.
    Sure, he said some things he should not have on his way out ... and did a little bit of pouting when he went down and B.J. was successful in 2005, but that is no reason to condemn the man and not acknowledge his great years in a Vikings uniform. I see nothing wrong in him saying he wants to be the man in Miami and will not just give up his spot easily. Part of me wants him to do badly because I hate the Dolphins ... but we all know he has an immense amount of raw talent ... and part of me would like to see him find a way to get his head right and get back to being a solid NFL QB.
    You left out the role that MOSS played in his career . . . which was a curse and a blessing for DC.
    MOSS made DC look much better, faster in his career and thus became "spoiled" by having to just "throw up the ball" to MOSS.

    Now DC is having to really learn how to read a defense, and is in some ways a "rookie" again . . . but at his salary . . . he might not get the time.
    With the right situation and right mentor / coaching, he could be a good QB . . . but his fumbles will always continue to haunt him!!!
    So was Joe Montana not great? Was Fran Tarkenton not great? Was Steve Young not great? Was Troy Aikman not great? Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Peyton Manning, Jim Kelly, John Elway, Dan Marino, Brett Favre, Warren Moon, Dan Fouts? Hell, damn near every great QB I can think of played with WR's that went to at least a five pro Bowls or with hall of famers like Rice, Lofton, Swann, Stallworth, Irvin, Carter, Harrison, Joiner and Winslow (and guys who are close to enshrinement like Reed and R. Smith).
    To say a QB was not good or great because he had a great WR is just silly. Aaron Brooks and Andrew Walter both had the great Randy Moss ... I don't see any pro bowls coming for them any time soon ... It takes two to tango and Culpepper and Moss were simply a great pair. Cunningham had Moss in 1999 and looked like garbage ... so even he could not be good with Moss for more than one year. Culpepper went to one Pro Bowl without Moss being extermely productive in 2004. All in all, they both benefitted from each other. Moss could go get it and Culpepper could let it fly.
    To say Culpepper was only good because he had Randy Moss cannot be proven right or wrong ... but there is not argument at all that he was very good, if not great, with Randy Moss, and that is not something to bag on him about ... what was he supposed to do? Not throw to Moss?
    Apparently you are putting DC in the Hall of Fame by your listing of the great QB's . . . but I'm not.
    You missed my point.
    He never really had to learn to read a defense or had to do some of the game-type things because he had MOSS.
    He had to learn to get in-synch with MOSS.

    DC was using the talent around him . . . any smart player is going to do that.
    He fell to us back in the draft, in part, because of the concerns of his fumbles . . . among other things.

    Time will tell how great of a QB DC really is . . . but I believe he will go down as a solid, but far from . . . a Hall of Famer.

    "No Greater Friend . . . No Worse Enemy. U.S. MARINES"
    "FIND YOUR PASSION AND MAKE IT HAPPEN!"
    "SUCCESS LOOKS EASY TO THOSE THAT WEREN'T THERE WHEN IT WAS BEING ACHIEVED!"

  2. #72
    so-cal vike's Avatar
    so-cal vike is offline Team Alumni
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    Re: Culpepper cautions QB Trent Green

    [quote author=sleepagent]

    Time will tell how great of a QB DC really is . . . but I believe he will go down as a solid, but far from . . . a Hall of Famer.

    [/quote]

    Nobody can say it better

    I will use it in my arguments

    Thank you for the quote

  3. #73
    grpape is offline Asst. Coach
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    Re: Culpepper cautions QB Trent Green

    "snowinapril" wrote:
    "COJOMAY" wrote:
    Haven't heard much from the "Pep Crouch Sniffers" lately have we. Remember when about 3/4 of this board thought the Vikes and Childress did the stupidest thing a NFL team has ever done -- trading Culpepper?
    Aren't ya glad hes' gone now?
    It is difficult to say either way.
    That is one reason I have been quiet too.
    The people I see talking are the ones that have always been out to see the guy fail, even when he was on our own team.
    Doesn't make sense to me!

    It is easy for the nay sayers to sit there with the upper hand at this time with all of DC negative press and the fact that he hasn't been on the field to prove himself for more than a few games on a knee that wasn't healed.
    You have to give it to the guy for getting out there, even though it might not have been the best for the team and his knee.
    Time will tell.

    Many QBs have made a comeback just recently after they were deemed "over" because of injury.
    Carson Palmer (knee), Chad Pennington (shoulder"s"), and Breese (shoulder) just to name a few of the most recent.

    I never root against me team and anyone still rooting against DC should just let it go.
    They should stop living in the past and stop trying to say, "I told you so."

    I can't really say I am glad to see him gone unless we actually have a QB on this team that can play better than he can.
    We haven't got a proven QB that is better than DC on this team.
    Even Brad wasn't up to the task last season.
    I see where you are comming from. Some QBs have come back recently. However, the difference between those three and Pep, as the scare crow would sing....."If I only had a brain".....

  4. #74
    MaxVike's Avatar
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    Re: Culpepper cautions QB Trent Green

    "so-cal" wrote:
    "MaxVike" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "MaxVike" wrote:
    Isn't it popular to hate Culpepper now that he's gone.
    Talk about full circle.
    The only thing consistent here is that the person who jettisoned Culpepper out of town is still hated.
    Any QB of the stature of Culpepper who doesn't say what he's saying is a coward.
    Culpepper had one of the greatest seasons (statistics wise, admittedly) in the history of the League for our team, regressed when his superstar was ousted, had what appears to be a career ending injury, was traded to a team in turmoil, and is now the ire of the same fans who loved him.
    Such is the NFL, and such is the fickle fan of the Vikings.
    Fickle fans?
    Try fickle QB.
    He did nothing to deserve our love and admiration.
    Yes, he put up some good numbers.
    But his ego was among those who forced Moss out, and once he faced a little (well deserved) public opposition in 2005 he decided it was time to piss all over the Vikings organization and its fans and high tail it back down to Florida.

    I am a fan of the Minnesota Vikings before I am a fan of any one player.
    DC put himself above the team, and that simply won't sit with me.
    Don't get me wrong, I thought the move by CHILDRESS, was the right one.
    My point is simply that many of the fans kicking Culpepper now are the same ones who chastised Childress for putting his foot down and not catering to a spoiled athlete.
    If you are not among them, you are excused.
    There are many, many articles, posts, opinions, etc., which, accentuate my point.
    I think you may have overstated the amount of fans that were against Chhildress's decision to let Daunte go.
    Some may have questioned the way Chilly went about it but, in the end I think everyone realized that it was the right decision to make.

    I for one was a huge Culpepper supporter, that is, until he started demanding more money without proof he was willing to do what the Vikings asked of him.
    Well put, So-Cal.

    Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent
    ----------------------------------------------
    As a matter of fact, I do know

  5. #75
    midgensa's Avatar
    midgensa is offline Jersey Retired Free Kick Specialist 3 Champion
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    Re: Culpepper cautions QB Trent Green

    "sleepagent" wrote:
    "midgensa" wrote:
    "sleepagent" wrote:
    "midgensa" wrote:
    I still don't understand all the hate for C-Pep. I think that it sucks the way he made stupid public comments on his way out of town ... and I supported the trade, but I never supported haing Brad "No Arm" Johnson as our guy.
    Look, simply put, at worst C-Pep is the fourth best QB ever to play for the Vikes
    and he is probably the second-best to wear the Purple and Gold Tarkenton a lock at No. 1 and maybe legit arguments could be made for Tommy Kramer and Randall Cunningham). He was a three-time pro-bowler in five years as a starter, accounted for 40 TDs in a season two times, went to an NFC Championship game, won a playoff game in Green Bay, threw the third most TDs in Vikings history, third most passing yards and had the best QB rating. He unfortunately was a .500 QB when it came to winning, but was severly hurt by the 2001 season in the tank and the 2002 season of rebuilding in the first year under Tice.
    Sure, he said some things he should not have on his way out ... and did a little bit of pouting when he went down and B.J. was successful in 2005, but that is no reason to condemn the man and not acknowledge his great years in a Vikings uniform. I see nothing wrong in him saying he wants to be the man in Miami and will not just give up his spot easily. Part of me wants him to do badly because I hate the Dolphins ... but we all know he has an immense amount of raw talent ... and part of me would like to see him find a way to get his head right and get back to being a solid NFL QB.
    You left out the role that MOSS played in his career . . . which was a curse and a blessing for DC.
    MOSS made DC look much better, faster in his career and thus became "spoiled" by having to just "throw up the ball" to MOSS.

    Now DC is having to really learn how to read a defense, and is in some ways a "rookie" again . . . but at his salary . . . he might not get the time.
    With the right situation and right mentor / coaching, he could be a good QB . . . but his fumbles will always continue to haunt him!!!
    So was Joe Montana not great? Was Fran Tarkenton not great? Was Steve Young not great? Was Troy Aikman not great? Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Peyton Manning, Jim Kelly, John Elway, Dan Marino, Brett Favre, Warren Moon, Dan Fouts? Hell, gol 'darnit near every great QB I can think of played with WR's that went to at least a five pro Bowls or with hall of famers like Rice, Lofton, Swann, Stallworth, Irvin, Carter, Harrison, Joiner and Winslow (and guys who are close to enshrinement like Reed and R. Smith).
    To say a QB was not good or great because he had a great WR is just silly. Aaron Brooks and Andrew Walter both had the great Randy Moss ... I don't see any pro bowls coming for them any time soon ... It takes two to tango and Culpepper and Moss were simply a great pair. Cunningham had Moss in 1999 and looked like garbage ... so even he could not be good with Moss for more than one year. Culpepper went to one Pro Bowl without Moss being extermely productive in 2004. All in all, they both benefitted from each other. Moss could go get it and Culpepper could let it fly.
    To say Culpepper was only good because he had Randy Moss cannot be proven right or wrong ... but there is not argument at all that he was very good, if not great, with Randy Moss, and that is not something to bag on him about ... what was he supposed to do? Not throw to Moss?
    Apparently you are putting DC in the Hall of Fame by your listing of the great QB's . . . but I'm not.
    You missed my point.
    He never really had to learn to read a defense or had to do some of the game-type things because he had MOSS.
    He had to learn to get in-synch with MOSS.

    DC was using the talent around him . . . any smart player is going to do that.
    He fell to us back in the draft, in part, because of the concerns of his fumbles . . . among other things.

    Time will tell how great of a QB DC really is . . . but I believe he will go down as a solid, but far from . . . a Hall of Famer.
    Just to make it clear, I was not saying he was a Hall of Famer, I was saying that the fact that he was good with Moss is not something to count against him. My point was you would not hold it against all of these Hall of Famers that they had great receivers around them ... obviously they did it for longer (and had great receivers for longer) and are holl of fame QB's something that C-Pep is not. But many around here acts like he was never good and that he is not one of the best QBs to ever wear a Vikes uniform ... and that simply is not the case.

  6. #76
    midgensa's Avatar
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    Re: Culpepper cautions QB Trent Green

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    One way or the other, if you put Trent Greens numbers over the last 4 years against any 4 of Culpeppers and Green wins the stat war hands(big or small) down. Green has also worked with the coaches that Miami has and he knows the system.

    So Culpepper is going to be at a disadvantage even if he is at 100 percent physically.



    As far as his talents, I have never been one who thought they were that much above average.He had one spectacular year, but even when he was on top of his game,he was surrounded with talent good enough that a backup like Gus Ferrotte could come in and go 4-0 with huge stats that were as good as or better than his.
    OK OK ... I have seen the two of you going back and forth on this ... and while you could make some arguments for Green .. hands down is definitely not the case:

    C-Pep's best four (00, 02, 03, 04) vs. T-Gre's best four (which happen to be 02-05)

    Culpepper 1305-2027, 15,992 Yards, 115 TDs, 61 INTs, 7.9/Att., 64.4%, 95.0 Rating, 1901 YDs Rushing, 23 TDs on the ground, 32-30 Reg. Season record 2-2 playoffs record, 3 Pro Bowls
    Per game: 21-33, 258 Yds, 2 Tds, 1 INT, 31 Yds rushing, .4 TDs

    Green 1303-2056, 16,334, 94 TDs, 52 INTs, 7.9/Att., 63.4%, 92.7 Rating, 475 YDs Rushing, 3 TDs, 38-26 Reg. Season , 0-1 Playoffs, 2 Pro Bowls

    Per game: 20-32, 255 Yds, 1.5 TDs, .8 INT, 7.4 Yds Rushing, 1 TD on the ground every 21 games

    Bottom line is C-Pep is ahead in every major category per game except for INTs which is pretty close. He does not win like Green (which is a major flaw) in the regular season, but does have two playoff wins (one on the road) while Green lost as the top seed in Arrowhead (where they have a huge home-field advantage). And C-Peps rushing stats speak for themselves ... it brings a whole other aspect to the game and he does not use it like Vick ... he used it when he needed it. While Green's numbers are great in his best four years ... they are slightly less than C-Pep in every stat except for overall yards (not per game) and INTs.

    P.S. Frerotte went 2-0 ... not 4-0 ... and those are the only two games C-Pep missed that year ... and he missed them because they could win without him.

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