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  1. #21
    hx38596's Avatar
    hx38596 is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Re: Crabtree back to the 2010 draft?

    I can't believe everyone is on the owner's side and not the players (who gets used up and put away quick).
    A player must play to his contract, but a team can drop a player anytime and only pay the guaranteed money if that.
    My point is that noone is questioning the 49ers and their inability to get a deal done.


    Rookie caps... do you think that the owners will pay the rookies less, so they will just freely give that money to the veterans because it's the right thing to do???
    No freaking way.
    they will pocket that money and call it profit.
    All the while the new, exciting rookies come in and generate buzz and ticket sales while bound to slavery type contracts making less?
    Just look at AD...
    spending this next two years (prime time) making less than chester taylor.

    Taylor, Chester
    Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
    2008 Vikings $ 3,000,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 100,360 $ 3,100,360 $ 3,750,360 RB
    2007 Vikings $ 2,400,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 101,320 $ 2,401,320 $ 3,151,320 RB
    2006 Vikings $ 600,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 2,001,650 $ 5,601,650 $ 3,351,650 RB


    Peterson, Adrian (Okl)
    Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
    2008 Vikings $ 370,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 2,451,320 $ 2,821,320 $ 2,426,320 RB
    2007 Vikings $ 285,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 3,955,000 $ 4,540,000 $ 2,040,000 RB

  2. #22
    jmcdon00's Avatar
    jmcdon00 is offline Jersey Retired Snake Champion, Moto Trial Fest 2: Mountain Pack Champion, LL City Truck 2 Champion, Arithmetic sequence Champion, Troops Tower Defense Champion
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    Re: Crabtree back to the 2010 draft?

    "hx38596" wrote:
    I can't believe everyone is on the owner's side and not the players (who gets used up and put away quick).
    A player must play to his contract, but a team can drop a player anytime and only pay the guaranteed money if that.
    My point is that noone is questioning the 49ers and their inability to get a deal done.


    Rookie caps... do you think that the owners will pay the rookies less, so they will just freely give that money to the veterans because it's the right thing to do???
    No freaking way.
    they will pocket that money and call it profit.
    All the while the new, exciting rookies come in and generate buzz and ticket sales while bound to slavery type contracts making less?
    Just look at AD...
    spending this next two years (prime time) making less than chester taylor.

    Taylor, Chester
    Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
    2008 Vikings $ 3,000,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 100,360 $ 3,100,360 $ 3,750,360 RB
    2007 Vikings $ 2,400,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 101,320 $ 2,401,320 $ 3,151,320 RB
    2006 Vikings $ 600,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 2,001,650 $ 5,601,650 $ 3,351,650 RB


    Peterson, Adrian (Okl)
    Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
    2008 Vikings $ 370,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 2,451,320 $ 2,821,320 $ 2,426,320 RB
    2007 Vikings $ 285,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 3,955,000 $ 4,540,000 $ 2,040,000 RB
    +1, excellent post. If a team is over paying there first round pick then it's on them for not picking the right guy, or not developing him enough.

  3. #23
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Crabtree back to the 2010 draft?

    "hx38596" wrote:
    Well, let me refresh your memory on his hold out.
    What was the low offer before the hold out?
    What was agreed to so he went to camp?
    None of this is known, but this illustrates my point on negotiations and holding out is good for noone.
    Both sides came together here like they usually do, why can't the 49ers do it instead of LEAVING THE NEGOTIATION TABLE?



    [size=14pt]Adrian Peterson signs with Vikings after 3-day holdout[/size]

    By JON KRAWCZYNSKI
    Published: July 29, 2007

    MANKATO, Minn. (AP) - Running back Adrian Peterson agreed to terms with the Minnesota Vikings on Sunday, ending the seventh overall draft pick's brief three-day holdout.


    Peterson signed a five-year, $40.5 million deal with $17 million in guaranteed money and is expected to be in pads for the team's practice on Monday morning, [size=12pt][size=12pt]
    meaning he will have missed five training camp sessions.
    [/size][/size]
    It would be interesting to see the size of the contract vs. the offer with AP?
    Also, 3 days is a whole lot less than sitting out the season.

    All this just goes back to my point.
    Who does holding out benefit?
    No one.
    Therefore if a new rookie salary cap structure is put in place none of this would be happening.

    Owners have a right to pocket whatever money they make and spend as much money as they want to.
    That is what people seem to forget.
    It is their money and their investment.
    Rookies haven't done a damn thing for them yet.
    Whereas the owners are giving them a chance to play in a great organization and make a lot of money.
    When the player proves himself and earns more dough then the owner should pay what the player is worth.
    Until then, if you don't like your offer go elsewhere.
    See how much you make there.
    I am sure if he's that good, someone would be willing to offer him more money than the 49ers.

    People have choices.
    Crabtree, his agent and family have a choice to either accept what the 49ers offer or sit out.
    Evidently they think it is more beneficial to sit out and make nothing than it is to make $20m.
    So be it.
    Enjoy your unemployment.

    Every employer has a right to get rid of people at any given time.
    So what makes the NFL different?
    If I am making a salary now what am I guaranteed if my employer wants to get rid of my salary?

  4. #24
    tarkenton10's Avatar
    tarkenton10 is offline Star Spokesman
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    Re: Crabtree back to the 2010 draft?

    "hx38596" wrote:
    I can't believe everyone is on the owner's side and not the players (who gets used up and put away quick).
    A player must play to his contract, but a team can drop a player anytime and only pay the guaranteed money if that.
    My point is that noone is questioning the 49ers and their inability to get a deal done.


    Rookie caps... do you think that the owners will pay the rookies less, so they will just freely give that money to the veterans because it's the right thing to do???
    No freaking way.
    they will pocket that money and call it profit.
    All the while the new, exciting rookies come in and generate buzz and ticket sales while bound to slavery type contracts making less?
    Just look at AD...
    spending this next two years (prime time) making less than chester taylor.

    Taylor, Chester
    Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
    2008 Vikings $ 3,000,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 100,360 $ 3,100,360 $ 3,750,360 RB
    2007 Vikings $ 2,400,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 101,320 $ 2,401,320 $ 3,151,320 RB
    2006 Vikings $ 600,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 2,001,650 $ 5,601,650 $ 3,351,650 RB


    Peterson, Adrian (Okl)
    Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
    2008 Vikings $ 370,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 2,451,320 $ 2,821,320 $ 2,426,320 RB
    2007 Vikings $ 285,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 3,955,000 $ 4,540,000 $ 2,040,000 RB
    I disagree- for every AP there are the Ryan Leafs of the world.
    It is a risk by the owner, so the player should ahve some risk i.e. their pay.


    And how can you be on his side- just because he thinks he is a top five talent (which he may not be!!) he wants to be paid like one; that's ludicrous (ala Mike Tyson)! !
    How many owners do you think are going to pay him top five money zip, zero, nada!
    Can you imagine the implications; every tom, dick and harry would be pulling that stunt next year if it worked.
    He got drafted where he got drafted look at the money in front and behind him and pay him accordingly.
    If he is a stud he will get his money his next contract!

    There s only two things stopping you - fear and common sense!! The Truth you CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!

  5. #25
    Zeus's Avatar
    Zeus is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Crabtree back to the 2010 draft?

    "hx38596" wrote:
    Well, let me refresh your memory on his hold out.
    What was the low offer before the hold out?
    What was agreed to so he went to camp?
    None of this is known, but this illustrates my point on negotiations and holding out is good for noone.
    Both sides came together here like they usually do, why can't the 49ers do it instead of LEAVING THE NEGOTIATION TABLE?
    Nothing in that link that says anything about a "low offer" before the hold out.
    Rookies (generally) hold out until someone steps up and signs to set the market.
    There is a slotting system in place and AD was NOT paid #3 money for being picked 7th.

    Crabtree think he deserves to be paid as if he were the first WR picked.
    He wasn't.
    End of story.

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

  6. #26
    Zeus's Avatar
    Zeus is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Crabtree back to the 2010 draft?

    "hx38596" wrote:
    I can't believe everyone is on the owner's side and not the players (who gets used up and put away quick).
    A player must play to his contract, but a team can drop a player anytime and only pay the guaranteed money if that.
    My point is that noone is questioning the 49ers and their inability to get a deal done.


    Rookie caps... do you think that the owners will pay the rookies less, so they will just freely give that money to the veterans because it's the right thing to do???
    No freaking way.
    they will pocket that money and call it profit.
    All the while the new, exciting rookies come in and generate buzz and ticket sales while bound to slavery type contracts making less?
    Just look at AD...
    spending this next two years (prime time) making less than chester taylor.

    Taylor, Chester
    Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
    2008 Vikings $ 3,000,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 100,360 $ 3,100,360 $ 3,750,360 RB
    2007 Vikings $ 2,400,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 101,320 $ 2,401,320 $ 3,151,320 RB
    2006 Vikings $ 600,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 2,001,650 $ 5,601,650 $ 3,351,650 RB


    Peterson, Adrian (Okl)
    Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
    2008 Vikings $ 370,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 2,451,320 $ 2,821,320 $ 2,426,320 RB
    2007 Vikings $ 285,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 3,955,000 $ 4,540,000 $ 2,040,000 RB
    LOL.
    4.5 million is a "slavery type contract"?

    Amazing.
    Simply amazing.

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

  7. #27
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Crabtree back to the 2010 draft?

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "hx38596" wrote:
    I can't believe everyone is on the owner's side and not the players (who gets used up and put away quick).
    A player must play to his contract, but a team can drop a player anytime and only pay the guaranteed money if that.
    My point is that noone is questioning the 49ers and their inability to get a deal done.


    Rookie caps... do you think that the owners will pay the rookies less, so they will just freely give that money to the veterans because it's the right thing to do???
    No freaking way.
    they will pocket that money and call it profit.
    All the while the new, exciting rookies come in and generate buzz and ticket sales while bound to slavery type contracts making less?
    Just look at AD...
    spending this next two years (prime time) making less than chester taylor.

    Taylor, Chester
    Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
    2008 Vikings $ 3,000,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 100,360 $ 3,100,360 $ 3,750,360 RB
    2007 Vikings $ 2,400,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 101,320 $ 2,401,320 $ 3,151,320 RB
    2006 Vikings $ 600,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 2,001,650 $ 5,601,650 $ 3,351,650 RB


    Peterson, Adrian (Okl)
    Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
    2008 Vikings $ 370,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 2,451,320 $ 2,821,320 $ 2,426,320 RB
    2007 Vikings $ 285,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 3,955,000 $ 4,540,000 $ 2,040,000 RB
    LOL.
    4.5 million is a "slavery type contract"?

    Amazing.
    Simply amazing.

    =Z=
    What's even more amazing is the comparison is between 4year vet and a rookie.
    Taylor was in the league for 4 years prior to becoming a Viking.

  8. #28
    Prophet's Avatar
    Prophet is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Crabtree back to the 2010 draft?

    "hx38596" wrote:
    I can't believe everyone is on the owner's side and not the players (who gets used up and put away quick).
    A player must play to his contract, but a team can drop a player anytime and only pay the guaranteed money if that.
    My point is that noone is questioning the 49ers and their inability to get a deal done.


    Rookie caps... do you think that the owners will pay the rookies less, so they will just freely give that money to the veterans because it's the right thing to do???
    No freaking way.
    they will pocket that money and call it profit.
    All the while the new, exciting rookies come in and generate buzz and ticket sales while bound to slavery type contracts making less?
    Just look at AD...
    spending this next two years (prime time) making less than chester taylor.

    Taylor, Chester
    Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
    2008 Vikings $ 3,000,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 100,360 $ 3,100,360 $ 3,750,360 RB
    2007 Vikings $ 2,400,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 101,320 $ 2,401,320 $ 3,151,320 RB
    2006 Vikings $ 600,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 2,001,650 $ 5,601,650 $ 3,351,650 RB


    Peterson, Adrian (Okl)
    Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
    2008 Vikings $ 370,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 2,451,320 $ 2,821,320 $ 2,426,320 RB
    2007 Vikings $ 285,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 3,955,000 $ 4,540,000 $ 2,040,000 RB
    I guess he can get by eating rice and beans.
    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  9. #29
    Join Date
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    Re: Crabtree back to the 2010 draft?

    "hx38596" wrote:
    I can't believe everyone is on the owner's side and not the players (who gets used up and put away quick).
    A player must play to his contract, but a team can drop a player anytime and only pay the guaranteed money if that.
    My point is that noone is questioning the 49ers and their inability to get a deal done.
    The reason no one is questioning the 49ers here is that every indication is that they are offering Crabtree a contract in line with where he was picked in the draft, while his side has demanded significantly more than that amount.
    People have an idea of what is 'fair' based on what has come before.
    The 49ers appear to be offering a 'fair' deal.

    If the report was 'Crabtree Wants Fair Value, 49ers Continue to Low-ball,' then people would ask why the 49ers drafted him if they weren't willing to pay for him.

    And then from an intelligence standpoint, Crabtree has a lot more to lose than the 49ers.
    He will not see this kind of money again next year if he holds out.
    The 49ers could sign another pretty good receiver (on the order of a Houshmanzadeh or Berrian) in free agency next year for the cash Crabtree is supposedly asking for ($40 million/6 yrs).
    It's not a strong bargaining position, which is why you just don't see players do it.

    Rookie caps... do you think that the owners will pay the rookies less, so they will just freely give that money to the veterans because it's the right thing to do???
    No freaking way.
    they will pocket that money and call it profit.
    All the while the new, exciting rookies come in and generate buzz and ticket sales while bound to slavery type contracts making less?
    I think you're right here, and this was the Union's position at one point (not sure if it still is with new leadership).
    They prefer high rookie salaries in order to set the floor for new contracts for veteran players.

    The big thing is how much the salary cap grows.
    If it grows quickly like it has the past several years, then long-term player salaries aren't going to keep up and you have every team with millions of dollars in cap space left-over.
    If the cap is stagnant, then teams are going to be right up against it and every dollar you save will be spent on someone else.

    Right now the cap has been growing so fast that not paying rookies won't do much if anything to increase veteran salaries, while high rookie salaries can be used as negotiating tools for veterans.

    Just look at AD...
    spending this next two years (prime time) making less than chester taylor.
    The nature of these contracts is that some years you see more cash than others.
    In particular, the players like to see a lot up-front.
    Over the term of his contract, AD is making something like $5 million/year plus some significant incentives that could bring him near $7 million/year (link).
    Chester Taylor's four-year contract was $3.5 million/year (link).
    AD is making more, even if in a particular year he will see less cash.
    In fact, AD's contract is more in line with the recent big-time veteran running backs when they extended - Tomlinson ($6 mil/year), Larry Johnson ($7.5 mil/year), and Westbrook ($7 mil/year) - than with Taylor's contract signed as a backup moving into a starting role.
    When the age of the Vikings came to a close, they must have sensed it. Probably, they gathered together one evening, slapped each other on the back and said, "Hey, good job." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]

  10. #30
    ThorSPL's Avatar
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    Re: Crabtree back to the 2010 draft?

    "hx38596" wrote:
    Well, let me refresh your memory on his hold out.
    What was the low offer before the hold out?
    What was agreed to so he went to camp?
    None of this is known, but this illustrates my point on negotiations and holding out is good for noone.
    Both sides came together here like they usually do, why can't the 49ers do it instead of LEAVING THE NEGOTIATION TABLE?



    [size=14pt]Adrian Peterson signs with Vikings after 3-day holdout[/size]

    By JON KRAWCZYNSKI
    Published: July 29, 2007

    MANKATO, Minn. (AP) - Running back Adrian Peterson agreed to terms with the Minnesota Vikings on Sunday, ending the seventh overall draft pick's brief three-day holdout.


    Peterson signed a five-year, $40.5 million deal with $17 million in guaranteed money and is expected to be in pads for the team's practice on Monday morning, [size=12pt][size=12pt]
    meaning he will have missed five training camp sessions.
    [/size][/size]
    Again, that contract isn't #3 overall money, particularly for a RB; that's what I'm saying.


    The overall contract number vs. guaranteed money is a debate we could all have; very few see all of the escalators put in their contracts.
    AD had a higher peak value but 6 million less guaranteed than DHB got at #7 this year (38.5/23.5) vs 40.5/17.0).

    http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/08/30/n...igning-status/

    Also look at last year's picks:
    http://proathletesonly.com/news/fron...ontract-terms/

    Again, that's NOT #3 money.....
    AD got paid for his slot.


    Trust me, I'm a doctor.

    www.twitter.com/ThorSPL

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