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  1. #31
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    Frazier is a new HC, Musgrave is an unproven OC bringing in a new offense to MN. throw in a questionable OL (sorry Marrdro) and an average WR group and I don't know that I would support that as the best environment to introduce Ponder to the NFL.

    I beleive that Cam Newton is better suited to start now for reasons very similar to what IBP laid out. Much like Vince Young when he came out, he was the best option to have an instant impact on a bad team. Put them on a good team and it's a whole different story.

    The other thing about Cam is that I think he is close to his ceiling right now. I don't think we will see this guy as a long term successful QB. My take on this guy is that his best year's will be his first 5 years.

    Ponder, I have no idea on. Putting him in now would not be the end of the world or necessarily hurt his development, but I don't think he is so great that he would help Musgrave and Frazier form what they want from this offense in the short term. McNabb is a better known entity that makes it easier to measure whether this offense is going to form into anything worthwhile.

    It's not about Ponder, it's about Frazier trying to figure out how to put a team together. And unfortunately for him, the expectations for him are relatively high. A more seasoned HC with a history of success might be more willing to roll with an unknown rookie.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    Frazier is a new HC, Musgrave is an unproven OC bringing in a new offense to MN. throw in a questionable OL (sorry Marrdro) and an average WR group and I don't know that I would support that as the best environment to introduce Ponder to the NFL.

    I beleive that Cam Newton is better suited to start now for reasons very similar to what IBP laid out. Much like Vince Young when he came out, he was the best option to have an instant impact on a bad team. Put them on a good team and it's a whole different story.

    The other thing about Cam is that I think he is close to his ceiling right now. I don't think we will see this guy as a long term successful QB. My take on this guy is that his best year's will be his first 5 years.

    Ponder, I have no idea on. Putting him in now would not be the end of the world or necessarily hurt his development, but I don't think he is so great that he would help Musgrave and Frazier form what they want from this offense in the short term. McNabb is a better known entity that makes it easier to measure whether this offense is going to form into anything worthwhile.

    It's not about Ponder, it's about Frazier trying to figure out how to put a team together. And unfortunately for him, the expectations for him are relatively high. A more seasoned HC with a history of success might be more willing to roll with an unknown rookie.
    No need to apologize. I haven't said they were without issues. Just pointed out their statistical rankings.

    As to your last point about Leslie. I think he was ready to roll with Ponder but was overidden by the FO pukes. Remember what he was saying about his young rookie leading up to the signing of Dnabb.

    My guess, the FO pukes wanted to sell tickets instead of developing a QB. Only way to do that is to put out a QB that most would feel happy about being under center.

    Don't forget how many fans we saw at spring training/camp. Record attendance my friends, record attendance.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    I am not sure that your restatement really changed anything.

    Can you do a better job of explaining how sitting on the bench is going to do anything for his size, speed or his arm?

    I take it you are not questioning whether he is ready mentally? Because I can buy the idea that a QB who has the physical tool but hasn't grasped the concepts mentally would certainly benefit from sitting on the bench while they learn the playbook.

    But if a QB already has the mental part down from a classroom standpoint then really their only limitations would be whether they are physically gifted enough to play the position and holding the clip board isn't going to help that.

    For instance- Lets use Webb as an example- I do believe he is better suited to holding the clipboard in terms of developing as a QB because his learning curve on the textbook part of the position is more than likely still developing and will more than likely take a few years for him to comprehend and catch up to his physical skills. I think we are on the same page there. But if Ponder has the smarts they say he does and if he knows the offense the way it has been stated he does then IMHO he is as ready to go as any of the QB's playing in the league right now that started their first year.

    Now, if it comes to light that he doesn't have the physical skills to play in the league then by all means we need to figure that out and move on rather than leaving him hanging around like the last project.
    Because as intelligent as Ponder is, he's not ready to play in the NFL. He has the mental ability to learn it and succeed(hopefully), but that still takes time. While Newton can go out there, not ready and do well enough because he has the physical ability to make up for what he might not know.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_purple View Post
    Because as intelligent as Ponder is, he's not ready to play in the NFL. He has the mental ability to learn it and succeed(hopefully), but that still takes time. While Newton can go out there, not ready and do well enough because he has the physical ability to make up for what he might not know.
    Perfectly said! That's what I've been trying to say, but I haven't been able to word it as well as you just did.

    Sorry Rick! Keep up the good work.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_purple View Post
    Because as intelligent as Ponder is, he's not ready to play in the NFL. He has the mental ability to learn it and succeed(hopefully), but that still takes time. While Newton can go out there, not ready and do well enough because he has the physical ability to make up for what he might not know.
    You know that first hand and you know first hand that somehow that will change with time on the bench? Or it it that he just doesn't have the physical tools to play QB in the NFL?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    You know that first hand and you know first hand that somehow that will change with time on the bench? Or it it that he just doesn't have the physical tools to play QB in the NFL?
    Do you not believe in player development at all? It's not like you just draft a player and throw them on the field without teaching them anything. I know you are fed up with the QB situation (we all are), but rushing Ponder's development is not the answer.

    Sorry Rick! Keep up the good work.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMullitia View Post
    Do you not believe in player development at all? It's not like you just draft a player and throw them on the field without teaching them anything. I know you are fed up with the QB situation (we all are), but rushing Ponder's development is not the answer.
    Seriously? you just said that? There are multiple cases of QB's playing in the league right now as we speak that started their rookie seasons and are doing just fine. There are also cases of guys that did and are not in the league like Russell who wouldn't be in the league even if they had a TJ like developmental period.

    You can play a player right away if you handle them right and don't expect the moon from them and Musgrave apparently has that type of mentality although I haven't seen it in action.

    Tell me this:

    If he is intelligent and can already understand the plays, formations, defenses etc, can you explain to me just what development he is getting by holding a clipboard that is forming the basis for his future success that wouldn't happen if he is playing?

    Like I said before- If he didn't know offense, if he had learning difficulty and needed time to understand the fundamentals of the playbook etc then I would be with you 100% but this is a smart guy and he only needs to get the experience of the live situations and to find out if he has the physical tools to make it and that isn't changing on the sidelines.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    Seriously? you just said that? There are multiple cases of QB's playing in the league right now as we speak that started their rookie seasons and are doing just fine. There are also cases of guys that did and are not in the league like Russell who wouldn't be in the league even if they had a TJ like developmental period.

    You can play a player right away if you handle them right and don't expect the moon from them and Musgrave apparently has that type of mentality although I haven't seen it in action.

    Tell me this:

    If he is intelligent and can already understand the plays, formations, defenses etc, can you explain to me just what development he is getting by holding a clipboard that is forming the basis for his future success that wouldn't happen if he is playing?

    Like I said before- If he didn't know offense, if he had learning difficulty and needed time to understand the fundamentals of the playbook etc then I would be with you 100% but this is a smart guy and he only needs to get the experience of the live situations and to find out if he has the physical tools to make it and that isn't changing on the sidelines.
    Best case scenario is Ponder goes in right away, is successful and becomes an elite QB.

    what would likely happen is he'd get killed behind our OL, since he hasn't developed the NFL QB sense of sensing pressure, avoiding hits, etc. Not to mention our OL can't block.

    Worst case, he goes out, gets hurt, and we do this all over again next season. Worst case scenario is alot more likely than one might think.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    No need to apologize. I haven't said they were without issues. Just pointed out their statistical rankings.

    As to your last point about Leslie. I think he was ready to roll with Ponder but was overidden by the FO pukes. Remember what he was saying about his young rookie leading up to the signing of Dnabb.

    My guess, the FO pukes wanted to sell tickets instead of developing a QB. Only way to do that is to put out a QB that most would feel happy about being under center.

    Don't forget how many fans we saw at spring training/camp. Record attendance my friends, record attendance.
    Me thinks you may have it backwards my friend.

    http://www.startribune.com/sports/vi...128509608.html

    What you heard from insiders was that Rick Spielman and his personnel brain trust were locked in on Ponder as the starting quarterback. And that Frazier saw it differently: a decision to go with a rookie that had been locked out of his first offseason would be an admission the Vikings were in rebuilding mode.
    [QUOTE][He wanted a veteran. And one such quarterback readily available was Donovan McNabb, on the outs in Washington after only one season with the egomaniacal coach, Mike Shanahan./QUOTE]

    Of course Reusse could be wrong, but it would make sense that a new coach under the gun to win would want a veteran to run his offense.
    Why must you defend everything this FO does....to the point of making your self look like a yes man.

  10. #40
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    [QUOTE=marshallvike;1110309]Me thinks you may have it backwards my friend.

    http://www.startribune.com/sports/vi...128509608.html



    [He wanted a veteran. And one such quarterback readily available was Donovan McNabb, on the outs in Washington after only one season with the egomaniacal coach, Mike Shanahan./QUOTE]

    Of course Reusse could be wrong, but it would make sense that a new coach under the gun to win would want a veteran to run his offense.
    That's my take on it.

    I won't argue that starting Ponder this year isn't in the best interest of the team long term (nor will I argue against it), but it does pretty much admit that we are rebuilding and I don't think that was the understanding that Frazier has with management.

    If Frazier was given the luxury of rebuilding similar to what Chilly had, then the pressure would be off of him for a few seasons and growing with Ponder would make a lot more sense. I think you need to look at the top on this one and I don't necessarily disagree considering the current pieces that are in place.

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