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  1. #21
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    Re: Breaking Down the NFC North: 2007

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    As always, great stuff and I see your however if your gonna break it down to Coryell vs Walsh should also be including Gilliam in the discussion.
    Anyway.......

    Let me be up front with my response here when I tell you that any data you used from last year to reflect the kind of offense that we will employ this year is a bit skewed.
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't think we saw the version of the WCO that the Chiller wants to run last year.
    What we saw was what he thought would work based on the personnel at hand.

    Additions like B-wade (quick off the line, runs precise routes, catches the ball, gets YAC) as well as a Shank (Good blocker, can catch the ball, stretches the field) and shift/change in QB to TJ (quick decisions, can make all the throws, is mobile and can roll out of pocket) are indicators to me of what version he wants to run and that is the Walsh vice Coryell (Gilliam) system

    Some percieved errors on your part......

    -The Walsh offense deployed a split back set in which the RB's became primary receivers on first down along with the TE, whereas we use a single or I formation more often with AP and CT. Also in college AP was an I back, not a split back and if we try to use him that way, well, we tried the exact thing with Hershel Walker and see where that got us.
    Roger Craig - Tom Rathman.
    If memory servers, those two were set up in the I formation not in a split back formation.

    Walsh, in fact, went against the grain somewhat in using a fullback in the mid- to late 1980s, Rathman said.

    “When I came into the league, people were getting away from the prototypical fullback,” he said. “They were going to two tight ends and one running back. Or they’d go one running back and (multiple) wide receivers. They were kind of eliminating the fullback position.
    http://www.journalstar.com/articles/...3279688162.txt

    Additionally, with respect to the use of our backs, I think we will see alot of FB/RB sets such as this vice CT and AD together.
    I stuck something in a thread about this (can't remember which one) related to the version of WCO I think the Chiller wants/will run this year.
    It is predicated on the use of a FB because of his size and ability to pick u the blitz/lead block for the RB much the way Tom did for the 49'rs.

    -Under Walsh, the 9ers would pass the majority of time on first and second down and used the pass to set up the rush and then would run more later in the game as the defense wore down. If you look at our stats last year we ran more to start the game and then because we went progressively higher with passing as the game went by. That is more indicative of the coryell offense.
    I agree with you on the reliance of Walsh's version of the WCO on use of the pass first, especially the short 3 step drop passing to set up the run.
    As a matter of fact I think I am one of a very few on this site that believe the Chiller will pass more than run this year.

    In fact I believe (take a look at the Rams plays used by our starters) we will see alot of the short, timed, precise patterns run by the backs, TE and WR's this year that are the staple of the WCO in order to stretch the field horizontally and keep the D off balance much as the niners did.
    IMHO B-wade will be the key for that to work.
    Again, back to the FB, RB and TE role in this and whether or not our RB's can catch the ball.



    Just because we have a good running attack doesn't mean we will give up on the most important part of the WCO and that is to setup the run via the pass.
    In fact, if you remember right, one of the concerns (other than his shoulder) was whether or not AD could catch a pass.
    (By the way, again, more passes than runs against the Rams)

    -Walsh ran a man blocking scheme.We have zone blocking with man blocking only when situations dictate it.
    I won't argue the Zone vs Man blocking as I don't think the ZB scheme was invented or at least as prevelant as it is today.
    As a matter of fact Del corrected me several times lately (along with others) that most teams, including us run a mix of ZB and MB'ing schemes.
    Again, I won't argue that point but I don't think it leads one to differentiate between Walsh or Coryells scheme.

    If you look at our talent and the Coryell system, we probably should be running it if we aren't

    QB- Strong arm capable of getting the ball deep down the field but mobile enough to evade the rush on a 5-7 step drop if protection breaks down
    - TJack

    TE- Has speed to stretch the field vertically and great blocking technique to give the QB protection when needed.- Shank

    RB-I formation runner to punish the defense and soften them up for big plays later on.Runs are primarily between the tackles.- AP
    Again, I think you are looking at the wrong version of Walsh's offense.


    QB - Joe Montanna/Steve Young - TJ/Thigpen
    TE - Clark - Shank
    RB - Craig - CT/AP
    FB - Rathman - T-rich/Dugan.

    If nothing else, you have to say that Walsh did what he had to do to make the system he ran fit his talent (Right V?) and that alone is exactly the opposite of what we are seeing and hearing from Childress where the players have to fit his system for the team to be successful.
    As I alluded to earlier and alot of people will disagree with me on this, but, I honestly believe that the offense our team ran last year was not what the Chiller envisioned when he first looked at the roster. In fact I think he realized that he had grossly miss judged the talent and wound adjusting to and running what he thought he could with the talent he had on the field.


    Unfortunately for us, that didn't work out to well.
    I thought that it was the Miami Vice system?
    You know...the T (shirt) formation.
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  2. #22
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    Re: Breaking Down the NFC North: 2007

    Thank goodness I missed th bul of this thread.

    As I alluded to earlier and alot of people will disagree with me on this, but, I honestly believe that the offense our team ran last year was not what the Chiller envisioned when he first looked at the roster. In fact I think he realized that he had grossly miss judged the talent and wound adjusting to and running what he thought he could with the talent he had on the field.


    Unfortunately for us, that didn't work out to well.
    Come on Marr. If you believe that Childress has any brains at all, you can't possibly believe that. Childress was more rigid with his scheme than a guy getting a lap dance. He isntead changed players (Johnson, Bollinger, Williamson, Taylor, Robinson, Johnson etc.) who he hoped (using no reasoning at all I might add) would perform better even though they were far less talented. He didn't like our best pass catcher because he was "the wrong type of TE."

    Childress could have run a heavy running game with short passes to our TE. It would not have gotten us far, but he could have done that. If last year is how Childress maximizes talent, he will never get us anywhere, no matter how much talent he brings in.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  3. #23
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Breaking Down the NFC North: 2007

    "V" wrote:
    Thank goodness I missed th bul of this thread.

    As I alluded to earlier and alot of people will disagree with me on this, but, I honestly believe that the offense our team ran last year was not what the Chiller envisioned when he first looked at the roster. In fact I think he realized that he had grossly miss judged the talent and wound adjusting to and running what he thought he could with the talent he had on the field.


    Unfortunately for us, that didn't work out to well.
    Come on Marr. If you believe that Childress has any brains at all, you can't possibly believe that. Childress was more rigid with his scheme than a guy getting a lap dance. He isntead changed players (Johnson, Bollinger, Williamson, Taylor, Robinson, Johnson etc.) who he hoped (using no reasoning at all I might add) would perform better even though they were far less talented. He didn't like our best pass catcher because he was "the wrong type of TE."

    Childress could have run a heavy running game with short passes to our TE. It would not have gotten us far, but he could have done that. If last year is how Childress maximizes talent, he will never get us anywhere, no matter how much talent he brings in.
    Are you still trying to defend Wiggo?
    Look I am a huge Wiggens fan, but he just didn't work out last year, just like Brad and our attitude laden WR's who only wanted to play if they weren't dinged.
    Take a look back my friend, the only things in that offense that were successfull were CT and Hutch and they came in on Chillies watch.

    Birk struggled, McKinnie was slower than mollasses, Brad couldn't move in, let alone out of the pocket and he sure the heck didn't have the arm strenght to get the ball to a WR if by some small miracle they were able to get open.

    I have, as in this thread, been pretty consistent with my stance and that has been that the Offense wasn't successfull.
    In fact I said it did't work out to well.
    Additionally, I almost always add the following to my stance and that is I still believe that the offense we will see this year will be a hell of a lot closer to what the KAO should be vice what we saw last year.

    Ooohhh by the way.......
    When the Chiller is still here in 2008 and you haters are hating, it will even be closer to the KAO he wants to run as he pooh cans more of Tices leftovers.

    ;D
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #24
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    Re: Breaking Down the NFC North: 2007

    I hate to admit this, but that description of the vikes seemed to be right to me. Hopefully Jackson does give us a spark and isn't as bad as they say he will be in that article. Hopefully, we aren't the worst passing team in the league or in history for that matter either, because if we are it is going to be a really LONG season.

    I get the most pissed off looks from people with my VKG 4 LFE Wisconsin license plate, and I LOVE IT!!

  5. #25
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    Re: Breaking Down the NFC North: 2007

    I'm sick of all the previews?
    We have a top rated OL. RB, DL, CB , LB, and S.
    We have only two questions.

    QB and WR.
    Based on these two facts we get rated low.
    But Jackson is not confirmed as a suck jiggly butt.
    Would you rather go in knowing your starter is Joey Harrington who you know sucks or someone who every expert opinion I've seen states has all the capabilities and has the ability.

    The Vikes could be very surprising this year.
    I truly believe that the defense will keep early games close and by the end of the year, the offense will start holding their own.


  6. #26
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    Re: Breaking Down the NFC North: 2007

    "V" wrote:
    Thank goodness I missed th bul of this thread.

    As I alluded to earlier and alot of people will disagree with me on this, but, I honestly believe that the offense our team ran last year was not what the Chiller envisioned when he first looked at the roster. In fact I think he realized that he had grossly miss judged the talent and wound adjusting to and running what he thought he could with the talent he had on the field.


    Unfortunately for us, that didn't work out to well.
    Come on Marr. If you believe that Childress has any brains at all, you can't possibly believe that. Childress was more rigid with his scheme than a guy getting a lap dance. He isntead changed players (Johnson, Bollinger, Williamson, Taylor, Robinson, Johnson etc.) who he hoped (using no reasoning at all I might add) would perform better even though they were far less talented. He didn't like our best pass catcher because he was "the wrong type of TE."

    Childress could have run a heavy running game with short passes to our TE. It would not have gotten us far, but he could have done that. If last year is how Childress maximizes talent, he will never get us anywhere, no matter how much talent he brings in.
    That's why it's a make or break year in my estimation for the Chiller. He has the players that he wants in his system. The pass catching TE, the two solid backs, the unproven WCO receiving corps a la the Eagles, the big armed mobile QB, the strong offensive line (at least half of it)... If he continues to move players around this year in his scheme then we know what may need to go... Childress.

  7. #27
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    Re: Breaking Down the NFC North: 2007

    "PurplePeopleEaters" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    Thank goodness I missed th bul of this thread.

    As I alluded to earlier and alot of people will disagree with me on this, but, I honestly believe that the offense our team ran last year was not what the Chiller envisioned when he first looked at the roster. In fact I think he realized that he had grossly miss judged the talent and wound adjusting to and running what he thought he could with the talent he had on the field.


    Unfortunately for us, that didn't work out to well.
    Come on Marr. If you believe that Childress has any brains at all, you can't possibly believe that. Childress was more rigid with his scheme than a guy getting a lap dance. He isntead changed players (Johnson, Bollinger, Williamson, Taylor, Robinson, Johnson etc.) who he hoped (using no reasoning at all I might add) would perform better even though they were far less talented. He didn't like our best pass catcher because he was "the wrong type of TE."

    Childress could have run a heavy running game with short passes to our TE. It would not have gotten us far, but he could have done that. If last year is how Childress maximizes talent, he will never get us anywhere, no matter how much talent he brings in.
    That's why it's a make or break year in my estimation for the Chiller. He has the players that he wants in his system. The pass catching TE, the two solid backs, the unproven WCO receiving corps a la the Eagles, the big armed mobile QB, the strong offensive line (at least half of it)... If he continues to move players around this year in his scheme then we know what may need to go... Childress.
    I think your wrong...

    Wilfy is going to be patient with Childress.
    This is only his 2nd year as head coach.
    A head coach needs AT LEAST three years.
    Even if our record is worse than last year, the Big Chill is going nowhere.

    With that said, his record better improve (or at least equal) over last year or I am going to be pissed...
    If after the third year we still haven't shown vast signs of improvement I'll be calling for his head, although I doubt Wilf will.

  8. #28
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    Re: Breaking Down the NFC North: 2007

    There is no reason at all for us to be worse than last year. If we are it lands squarely on the coaches shoulders.

    Progress is the most important part of building a winning football team.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  9. #29
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    Re: Breaking Down the NFC North: 2007

    "PurplePeopleEaters" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    Thank goodness I missed th bul of this thread.

    As I alluded to earlier and alot of people will disagree with me on this, but, I honestly believe that the offense our team ran last year was not what the Chiller envisioned when he first looked at the roster. In fact I think he realized that he had grossly miss judged the talent and wound adjusting to and running what he thought he could with the talent he had on the field.


    Unfortunately for us, that didn't work out to well.
    Come on Marr. If you believe that Childress has any brains at all, you can't possibly believe that. Childress was more rigid with his scheme than a guy getting a lap dance. He isntead changed players (Johnson, Bollinger, Williamson, Taylor, Robinson, Johnson etc.) who he hoped (using no reasoning at all I might add) would perform better even though they were far less talented. He didn't like our best pass catcher because he was "the wrong type of TE."

    Childress could have run a heavy running game with short passes to our TE. It would not have gotten us far, but he could have done that. If last year is how Childress maximizes talent, he will never get us anywhere, no matter how much talent he brings in.
    That's why it's a make or break year in my estimation for the Chiller. He has the players that he wants in his system. The pass catching TE, the two solid backs, the unproven WCO receiving corps a la the Eagles, the big armed mobile QB, the strong offensive line (at least half of it)... If he continues to move players around this year in his scheme then we know what may need to go... Childress.
    I agree with you to a point PPE, however, I think were the extra year (before he gets on the hot seat) comes from, for me at least, is that alot of the talent this staff now has is pretty young.


    Sure they will get better this year, but I don't think we will really see thier full potential as a team for at least one more year especially when it comes to the questions we still have on the right side of the OL.

    Throw in one more good draft next year and a few more quality "Young" free agents and we will have a team that contend for quite a few years.
    Why would we get rid of the coach at year 2 in this program just so we can start over.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  10. #30
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    Re: Breaking Down the NFC North: 2007

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "PurplePeopleEaters" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    Thank goodness I missed th bul of this thread.

    As I alluded to earlier and alot of people will disagree with me on this, but, I honestly believe that the offense our team ran last year was not what the Chiller envisioned when he first looked at the roster. In fact I think he realized that he had grossly miss judged the talent and wound adjusting to and running what he thought he could with the talent he had on the field.


    Unfortunately for us, that didn't work out to well.
    Come on Marr. If you believe that Childress has any brains at all, you can't possibly believe that. Childress was more rigid with his scheme than a guy getting a lap dance. He isntead changed players (Johnson, Bollinger, Williamson, Taylor, Robinson, Johnson etc.) who he hoped (using no reasoning at all I might add) would perform better even though they were far less talented. He didn't like our best pass catcher because he was "the wrong type of TE."

    Childress could have run a heavy running game with short passes to our TE. It would not have gotten us far, but he could have done that. If last year is how Childress maximizes talent, he will never get us anywhere, no matter how much talent he brings in.
    That's why it's a make or break year in my estimation for the Chiller. He has the players that he wants in his system. The pass catching TE, the two solid backs, the unproven WCO receiving corps a la the Eagles, the big armed mobile QB, the strong offensive line (at least half of it)... If he continues to move players around this year in his scheme then we know what may need to go... Childress.
    I agree with you to a point PPE, however, I think were the extra year (before he gets on the hot seat) comes from, for me at least, is that alot of the talent this staff now has is pretty young.


    Sure they will get better this year, but I don't think we will really see thier full potential as a team for at least one more year especially when it comes to the questions we still have on the right side of the OL.

    Throw in one more good draft next year and a few more quality "Young" free agents and we will have a team that contend for quite a few years.
    Why would we get rid of the coach at year 2 in this program just so we can start over.
    No one is expecting to see their full potential, just some flashes of good play and improvement over last year. If you choose to go the route that Childress did, building through young talent, then it is imperative that the young players develop into solid guys if you want to keep your job.

    If those players do not pan out, then we are back at square one, new coach or not.

    If we see progress I will be happy. That means 7-9 or better with answers at DE, WR, RB, QB, and OL. Then we will truly be a couple of FA's away from being a contender.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

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